OT - New Hall of Famers: Bagwell, Raines and Ivan Rodriguez

[Bosox Blair]

Apparently the results are just in:

http://www.espn.com/live/

Cheers,
Blair

[btcarfagno]

All three very deserving. Hopefully more of those in the 50% and higher range get in eventually. Vladdy hopefully makes it next year. I'm not a fan or relievers, so I'm meh on Trevor Hoffman ever getting in.

Congrats to Pudge, Bagpipes and Rock!

Tom C

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

All three very deserving. Hopefully more of those in the 50% and higher range get in eventually. Vladdy hopefully makes it next year. I'm not a fan or relievers, so I'm meh on Trevor Hoffman ever getting in.

Congrats to Pudge, Bagpipes and Rock!

Tom C

I'm in the same boat re: relievers. The save rule is so badly flawed that I will never consider it a real marker of greatness. As a Mets fan, I saw John Franco many years. Overall impression? Meh. Seemed to me that he was very impressive one out of every five appearance, middling in three, and lousy or flat out awful in 2. And in many of those 5 spots he got a save. Of he blew a lead and wasn't charged with anything as the game continued. Would never consider him to be a great player. He was a good player. Most of the time he did what he was asked to do. The only relief pitcher I watched regularly that I would say is hall of fame material was Mariano, and that's coming from a modern day Yankee hater. Never watched Hoffman enough but if you are going to throw number of saves in my face I'm unimpressed.

[pclpads]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I'm in the same boat re: relievers. The only relief pitcher I watched regularly that I would say is hall of fame material was Mariano, and that's coming from a modern day Yankee hater. Never watched Hoffman enough but if you are going to throw number of saves in my face I'm unimpressed.

Yeah, and you'll probably be leading the cheering section when Rivera goes in 1st time / 1st ballot. Other than 50 more saves than Hoffman and being a Yankee vs a Pudre, what makes him more HOF worthy than Hoffy if you take away the saves?

[Moyni]

Originally Posted by pclpads

Yeah, and you'll probably be leading the cheering section when Rivera goes in 1st time / 1st ballot. Other than 50 more saves than Hoffman and being a Yankee vs a Pudre, what makes him more HOF worthy than Hoffy if you take away the saves?

This is a joke right? I hate the Yankees, but there is zero doubt that Rivera is heads and shoulders more worthy that Hoffman.

BTW, I think Hoffman should be in too.

[packs]

Originally Posted by pclpads

Yeah, and you'll probably be leading the cheering section when Rivera goes in 1st time / 1st ballot. Other than 50 more saves than Hoffman and being a Yankee vs a Pudre, what makes him more HOF worthy than Hoffy if you take away the saves?

Seriously? Have you looked at Rivera's numbers in the post season? Are you aware that he was as close to an automatic win as there has ever been in baseball? The guy threw one pitch. Every batter he ever faced knew it was coming. None of them could hit it. That's greatness.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by packs

Seriously? Have you looked at Rivera's numbers in the post season? Are you aware that he was as close to an automatic win as there has ever been in baseball? The guy threw one pitch. Every batter he ever faced knew it was coming. None of them could hit it. That's greatness.

There is a commercial stating more people have walked on the moon than scored against Rivera in the post-season lol.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by pclpads

Yeah, and you'll probably be leading the cheering section when Rivera goes in 1st time / 1st ballot. Other than 50 more saves than Hoffman and being a Yankee vs a Pudre, what makes him more HOF worthy than Hoffy if you take away the saves?

How does Hoffy's post-season record match up to this?

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/201...ees-postseason

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by pclpads

Yeah, and you'll probably be leading the cheering section when Rivera goes in 1st time / 1st ballot. Other than 50 more saves than Hoffman and being a Yankee vs a Pudre, what makes him more HOF worthy than Hoffy if you take away the saves?

What makes him more worthy? Seriously?

One guy's ERA+ was 205. The other's was 141.

One guy had 11 seasons with an ERA under 2.00. The other had 2.

One guy is the best reliever in postseason history (0.70 ERA in 141 IP). The other guy was below average for a reliever (3.46 ERA).


I have an extremely high standard for closers to be in the HOF. Because they pitch so little - sometimes as little as 50 innings - they had better be incredibly dominant in those innings to be worthy of the Hall. Rivera was. Hoffman wasn't. If we're looking for an NL reliever from Hoffman's time to put in the Hall, look at Billy Wagner. He was a LOT better.

[Tabe]

Put me also in the camp wondering why Raines got in. To me, nothing about his career screams "great". He had a nice, long productive career but great?

OBP? 135th all-time.

2600 hits in 23 seasons - 110 a year. Not great.

No power.

Career OPS+ of 123. Not great.

Terrible defense even by the low standards of LF.

How many great seasons did he have? 3? Maybe less. His best season was 1987 when he hit .330 with 18 HRs and an OPS of .955, 6th in the NL.

Honestly, his whole case is "he stole a lot of bases!" He finished with 808, 5th all-time. And that's nice and all - except we know that stolen bases aren't all that important.

So what are we left with? A terrible defensive LF who stole a lot of bases, got on base at a decent (but not great) rate and had little power.

That sure doesn't sound like a HOFer to me.

[pclpads]

[QUOTE=Tabe;1622636]What makes him more worthy? Seriously?

One guy's ERA+ was 205. The other's was 141.

One guy had 11 seasons with an ERA under 2.00. The other had 2.

One guy is the best reliever in postseason history (0.70 ERA in 141 IP). The other guy was below average for a reliever (3.46 ERA).

Yeah, seriously! Hoffy is like Lee Smith, who killed it for bad ball clubs ending with 478 saves. Doesn't get a sniff for HOF. Like Smith, Hoffy killed it for lousy Pudres teams - minus the '98 WS - with, like Smith, a bunch of scrubs supporting him. That makes what Hoffy and Smith accomplished as remarkable as Rivera and all his WS stuff with much better support than Hoffy or Smith ever had.

[h2oya311]

Originally Posted by Bosox Blair

Apparently the results are just in:

http://www.espn.com/live/

Cheers,
Blair

Thanks for the heads-up! Bagwell, Raines, and I-Rod.

[Exhibitman]

Yay Raines! Go Expos!

[CMIZ5290]

All well deserving, glad C. Jones didn't get in. I'm a life long Braves fan but this guy has been an ass hole his entire career, especially to the media and fans. You don't think that matters in the end? He is a rich man's J.D. Drew...

[icollectDCsports]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

All well deserving, glad C. Jones didn't get in. I'm a life long Braves fan but this guy has been an ass hole his entire career, especially to the media and fans. You don't think that matters in the end? He is a rich man's J.D. Drew...

Chipper Jones? He's on the ballot for the first time next year and will get in first ballot.

[90feetaway]

Just my opinion. Neither dominated the sport. Pudge was dominant at catcher which is a thin position. I think Vlad deserves a spot.

[conor912]

"Sold" listings for Raines' RC on Ebay in the last couple hours are pretty impressive.

[Shoebox]

Originally Posted by icollectDCsports

Chipper Jones? He's on the ballot for the first time next year and will get in first ballot.

Yeah I laughed pretty hard at that post too.

[EvilKing00]

i have no issue with any of the 3 getting in - BUT

Pudge and baggs get in on 1st ballot and Vlad dosnt? lol

Pudge gets in and Bonds dosnt??? Um both on peds

why does Sheffield get no love? his numbers are sick, yea yea peds but others did too

seems its more of a popularity contest than a baseball skills club

[Snapolit1]

Went to the NY Baseball Writers dinner last night. Congratulated Raines on the HOF in the men's room as he was trying in vain to dry his hands in one those lousy air blowers. A bit odd but I'll take it.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Vlad should be a first ballot HOF'er.

[bravos4evr]

Of course this also means I don't find batting average(or RBI for that matter) to be worthless stats, or only having worth within context. To me that's a false narrative.

the thing is that stats are either valuable or not valuable regardless of your opinion. Please explain, in as much detail as possible, why batting avg and RBI's are important stats for explaining player production.

I will retort when you are done.

[EvilKing00]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

Vlad should be a first ballot HOF'er.

Agree 100%

[nat]

Adding no relievers at all would set a better standard, what with them pitching far fewer innings than starting pitchers.

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

Vlad should be a first ballot HOF'er.

I'm not 100% he's a HOF'er at all. His numbers are in the borderline of inclusion.

29th in career RF fWAR (below Berkman, luis Gonzales)

23rd in career RF wRC+ (below Reggie Smith , Sheffield and Larry Walker)

50th in career RF OBP

14th in career RF ISO (isolated power)

12th in career RF home runs


idk, he's a top 30 right fielder of all time, but is that hall of fame worthy?

[JasonD08]

Vlad is not a HOFer.

[sycks22]

Originally Posted by JasonD08

Vlad is not a HOFer.

Vlad's first 10 full seasons:
950 Runs, 1781 Hits, 337 HR, 1051 RBI, .325 Avg Top 3 RF. Hit .300+ every year

Miggy's first 10 seasons:
961 Runs, 1802 Hits, 321 HR, 1123 RBI, .318 Avg Below Average 3B / 1B. Hit under .300 3x's

Would anyone argue that Miggy isn't a first ballot HOFer?