Another T206 Old Mill Blue Back??

[Ronnie73]

Hi everyone, I just posted a video on YouTube showing what I believe to be a second Old Mill with blue ink on the back. What do you guys think? I've never seen the Walsh in person but I know some of you have. https://youtu.be/p5qUHZQLeFw

[Leon]

It's cool looking. Nice video.

[CW]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

Hi everyone, I just posted a video on YouTube showing what I believe to be a second Old Mill with blue ink on the back. What do you guys think? I've never seen the Walsh in person but I know some of you have. https://youtu.be/p5qUHZQLeFw

Intriguing video, Ron. Congrats on the find if this all turns out to be legit. Obviously showing it off to SGC would be the next step if you plan to send it to auction. Good luck at the National.

You showed a still image of the text "Powell" on the front, taken by the USB microscope. If possible, can you post a similar microscope image of the brown ink caption from a known real T206 from your collection? I'm curious to see if there is any difference in that area. Thank you.

I watched the whole video but did not see it. Posting a side by side of the Powell caption and another card would be perfect, if you are able.

[obcmac]

Am I the only one that think both the Walsh and Powell look fake? I'm wrong a lot and hope you score big.

Mac

[MVSNYC]

I held the Walsh in my hand along with Wonka at the 2012 Nat'l in Baltimore. We both agreed it looked real, and he in fact made a robust offer to the owner, who ultimately declined.

Cool video, looks to be blue ink, like the Walsh.

[RCMcKenzie]

Nicely done. I normally watch Jorma Kaukonen or Roky Erickson vids on youtube, so this was something different. Like a walk-around of someone's low-mileage 1982 320i.

It looks blue and real to me, remember Mars Black is a very dark blue. I just think it's ink that is a bit lighter. I'd rather hear about your T206 Polar Bear backs and which ones you need and such.

[Jobu]

That looks pretty good to me -- great find it if checks out!

[Ronnie73]

Here are some additional photos taken with the USB Microscope. Pictures are for name color comparison. Pictures include:

Jack Powell - Sovereign 150 - PSA 2
Jack Powell - EPDG - PSA 1
Jack Powell - Old Mill Blue Back (Print Group 1) - Ungraded, in card saver
Red Kleinow - With Bat - Old Mill (Print Group 1) - Ungraded, in card saver
Wid Conroy - Fielding - Old Mill (Print Group 1) - Ungraded, in card saver

Here is my shared Google Drive link.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...HT?usp=sharing

[tedzan]

Hi Ron

I do not find this unusual. I examined the Walsh card closely under magnification and it looked real to me.

This Powell is just another case of a printer's mistake. The printer was running PIEDMONT back print runs.
Followed by OLD MILL back run, in which he forgot to change the ink to Black. Realized his mistake upon
checking the first printed sheet and stopped the press. And hung up the Blue OLD MILL T206 sheet to dry.

Both Powell and Walsh are from the 150 series. In the future, it wouldn't surprise me if a few more T206's
surface from this series with Blue OLD MILL backs.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[iwantitiwinit]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Ron

I do not find this unusual. I examined the Walsh card closely under magnification and it looked real to me.

This Powell is just another case of a printer's mistake. The printer was running PIEDMONT back print runs.
Followed by OLD MILL back run, in which he forgot to change the ink to Black. Realized his mistake upon
checking the first printed sheet and stopped the press. And hung up the Blue OLD MILL T206 sheet to dry.

Both Powell and Walsh are from the 150 series. In the future, it wouldn't surprise me if a few more T206's
surface from this series with Blue OLD MILL backs.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Sounds reasonable to me.

[RedsFan1941]

and it took only 100+ years for the first one to surface. in the most popular baseball card set of alltime

[MichelaiTorres83]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

[packs]

I've said it before but I am surprised no one finds it a little too coincidental that the blue Old Mill just happens to be printed by mistake 100 years ago in the same color as reprints made in the 80s. I even found examples of blue Old Mill reprints that were printed with and without the word "reprint" on them. As the old saying goes, if it looks like a duck....

[RedsFan1941]

lots of people find it odd. and those people actually held the card in their hands too

[packs]

I know that's what I'm surprised about. It could be real and if it is I would say that's a hell of coincidence. Maybe there are red Old Mills out there too. The reprinted sets were made with that back as well, but it could also be possible someone didn't change the ink out after printing Sweet Cap cards in 1909.

[Jobu]

The difference between the black back and this shade of blue is so subtle that it doesn't surprise me at all that these cards weren't discovered 50 years ago. Plus, lots of people have been looking since the Walsh was discovered and Powell will only be the second one found (if it checks out). So, that makes this doubly not surprising because there are so few of them. These are not neon blue backs with 10,000 examples floating around, they are nearly black backs with two floating around - not hard to believe that they were only recently discovered. Also, don't discount the role of the internet and thousands of scans for comparison at your finger tips -- this was not possible until recently.

Note, I did say "if it checks out". The reprint card that people mention is the Cy Young here:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=156986

That reprint has a pretty good back. There are also lots of reprints with cruddy blue backs that would never be confused with this one. The question is whether someone can take a blank backed T206 (one that is factory cut too --- something that I am not aware of existing), go through the whole lithography process to create a perfect match for an Old Mill back, and then print it on a few cards.

There may be a way to mimic lithographic printing that would allow for the printing without needing to create a stone, etc. (I will leave that to the printing experts - I have no idea). It may also be possible to remove the ink from the back of a factory cut card and then print over that, I am not wise in the dark arts of card alterations.

Ted -- to me the blue looks darker than Piedmont blue. Ron - can you do a side by side with a Polar Bear too?

[obcmac]

How about a high resolution full size scan of the front? Also, as we saw with the great t213 scandal, backs alone can fool the most advanced collector. So we had the double bar overprints (?) that were fake, the t213 coupon backs that were fake, the "missing reds" which are somewhere between 90-100 percent due to adhesives and/or sun, the painted ghost images....and now blue old Mills. I don't buy it, but I hope I'm wrong.

Mac

[packs]

Lack of bids in the original auction seemed pretty telling to me. Even with all the hype and expert opinions re: authenticity only one bid was placed.

[Ronnie73]

I know the Old Mill Blue Back is a controversial topic and that was the reason for making the video. I didn't know what to think when the Walsh surfaced. What I can tell you is I had the card for two years before I noticed the blue ink. Under normal lighting, its different looking but very very little difference than the black ink. Just seems to have a slight tint of blue to the black but under LED lighting, there's no doubt of a color difference. Maybe they were never discovered early on because there was no LED lighting. As far as someone making the card, just to sell it for $65 as a regular Old Mill back in 2015, seems like a waste of time. But I agree, if it looks like a duck... I've seen a lot of ducks in my travels of T206 card collecting, but this one just doesn't look like all the other ducks out there. Time will tell.

[Rhotchkiss]

Ron, Bryan makes a good point - the blue in the old mill seems much darker/richer than Piedmont blue. Anyway you can post a pic of the blue old mill next to the back of a piedmont issued in the same series/timeframe?

[steve B]

Did anyone asking for high res scans even watch the video?


A fake back is a bit tougher than a fake overprint, but it's doable. But I saw enough details in the microscope images to feel confident that it's not fake.


Fronts are much harder, but there's nothing in the detailed look at the caption that's on the intro to think there's any problem there at all.

[tedzan]

I'll reprise what I said earlier. And, add to it.

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Ron

I do not find this unusual. I examined the Walsh card closely under magnification and it looked real to me.

This Powell is just another case of a printer's mistake. The printer was running PIEDMONT back print runs.
Followed by OLD MILL back run, in which he forgot to change the ink to Black. Realized his mistake upon
checking the first printed sheet and stopped the press. And hung up the Blue OLD MILL T206 sheet to dry.

This was most likely only one such sheet (or perhaps two); therefore, I don't expect us to find duplicates of given subjects.

Both Powell and Walsh are from the 150 series. In the future, it wouldn't surprise me if a few more T206's
surface from this series with Blue OLD MILL backs.
.

Incidentally,
Here's a Lundgren with a Blue OLD MILL back, an obvious reprint (I acquired this one back in the 1990's).


…………………………..


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[RedsFan1941]

totally possible theory

[MichelaiTorres83]

Who owned the first one found and where did this card come from?

Was the first one found in 2015?

[packs]

I hate to beat a dead horse BUT I think it's worth pointing out there is a shared characteristic between that Lundgren, the Walsh, and this Powell card: all three have that large space at the bottom of the card, and from what I can tell, the same space.

One is a known reprint, the other two are believe to be authentic. Again, could all be a total coincidence. That's a lot of coincidences though.

[MichelaiTorres83]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Ron

I do not find this unusual. I examined the Walsh card closely under magnification and it looked real to me.

This Powell is just another case of a printer's mistake. The printer was running PIEDMONT back print runs.
Followed by OLD MILL back run, in which he forgot to change the ink to Black. Realized his mistake upon
checking the first printed sheet and stopped the press. And hung up the Blue OLD MILL T206 sheet to dry.

Both Powell and Walsh are from the 150 series. In the future, it wouldn't surprise me if a few more T206's
surface from this series with Blue OLD MILL backs.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

You make this sound like fact while I believe there is still a lot more info needed to conclude your opinion is correct. In a world where an infinite series of events could occur you nailed it down perfectly not withstanding down to what he had for lunch that day?

[DerekMichael]

That was a cool presentation and a really fascinating find. Who knows, maybe this will turn out to be the new Brown Lenox of T206 rare backs. I am excited to see if all of this materializes into something. I would slab it!

Good luck!

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by MichelaiTorres83

You make this sound like fact while I believe there is still a lot more info needed to conclude your opinion is correct. In a world where an infinite series of events could occur you nailed it down perfectly not withstanding down to what he had for lunch that day?

I worked part-time in a print shop back in my High School days. I do know what goes on in the course of producing printed artwork.


Did you ever work in a print shop....Mr. Torres ! ?


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[atx840]

[packs]

Ah, the photo. Compare that space on the bottom of the back on the Walsh to the same space on the Lundgren and the same space on the Powell.

[MichelaiTorres83]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I worked part-time in a print shop back in my High School days. I do know what goes on in the course of producing printed artwork.


Did you ever work in a print shop....Mr. Torres ! ?


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

In fact I did. That doesn't mean that because I have a theory, that is what happened. I am intelligent enough to know the difference. Are you Mr Zandikas !

[MichelaiTorres83]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I worked part-time in a print shop back in my High School days. I do know what goes on in the course of producing printed artwork.


Did you ever work in a print shop....Mr. Torres ! ?


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dOHEw8izno

[mrvster]

I have been on the fence with this one from the first one.......I , for the first time , not really sure???

I have always sided with "NO" .....but, it is plausible....



I'm 60 % no and 40 % yes

[Ronnie73]

Great discussion so far, along with humor lol. I think I had chicken wings that day. I'll try to get some large scans of the card front and back along with comparing the blue ink with Piedmont and Polar Bear ink later tonight. As I hold the card in my hand, what do I personally think? Well, if it had black ink on the back, I wouldn't question it as a 100% real T206. Now factor in the blue. Still looks real.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by MichelaiTorres83

You make this sound like fact while I believe there is still a lot more info needed to conclude your opinion is correct. In a world where an infinite series of events could occur you nailed it down perfectly not withstanding down to what he had for lunch that day?

That being said, I believe Teds explanation is either what happened, or very close to it. Personally I've leaned more towards a poor cleanup of a mistake causing dark blue from contamination.

The time to remove the piedmont stone, install the Old mill stone, then setup and adjust would probably lead to having a mess with dried ink messing things up.


(I also worked in a print shop, one that cross trained us so I eventually got to do each step in the process for a short time. Not much had really changed between 1910 and the 1980-81)

[MichelaiTorres83]

Originally Posted by steve B

That being said, I believe Teds explanation is either what happened, or very close to it. Personally I've leaned more towards a poor cleanup of a mistake causing dark blue from contamination.

The time to remove the piedmont stone, install the Old mill stone, then setup and adjust would probably lead to having a mess with dried ink messing things up.


(I also worked in a print shop, one that cross trained us so I eventually got to do each step in the process for a short time. Not much had really changed between 1910 and the 1980-81)

I do not disagree it is possible. It might even be probable but it is all just conjecture. My only point was that it was written as fact and it shouldn’t be. Next thing you know you have an auction house using it in a description so on and so forth.

He then proceeded to bold font exclamation point some holiday inn type whack ass credentials in a pit bull fight type manner about how he is more right than me like a child. It is not the first time I have seen this behavior. Hey. If he wants to measure weiners with other people to make people think he has won an argument that is fine. When it happens to me I will not tolerate it and I will point it out for what it is.

[Ronnie73]

So here are the results!!! 100% no question the ink is the same as Polar Bear ink. Even the Polar Bear back, under a microscope, has small black areas within the blue, just like the Old Mill Blue I have. Here are some comparison pictures.



Here are two USB Microscope pictures of the blue Old Mill and a black Old Mill.


The next picture is of the Old Mill Blue and a Piedmont 350.

And finally, 2 pictures with the Old Mill Blue and a Polar Bear back.


And here are some last minute scans of the front and back in 1200dpi that were requested by Chris (atx840). For some reason they were resized maybe by the webpage. Here are the front and back links.
http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/...pst3rtbtn1.jpg
http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/...psgqutvylr.jpg


The proof is in the pudding... and I don't have much more pudding than the above. But will still take scanning requests and comparison photos.

[MichelaiTorres83]

Originally Posted by steve B

That being said, I believe Teds explanation is either what happened, or very close to it. Personally I've leaned more towards a poor cleanup of a mistake causing dark blue from contamination.

The time to remove the piedmont stone, install the Old mill stone, then setup and adjust would probably lead to having a mess with dried ink messing things up.


(I also worked in a print shop, one that cross trained us so I eventually got to do each step in the process for a short time. Not much had really changed between 1910 and the 1980-81)

I will say right now I do not believe it is real but I can be convinced by something more than guessing about how it could have happened then concluding it is real for that reason. I would like to see a full front scan before. I mean, I think that is warranted before carving it in stone as real right?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

So here are the results!!! 100% no question the ink is the same as Polar Bear ink. Even the Polar Bear back, under a microscope, has small black areas within the blue, just like the Old Mill Blue I have. Here are some comparison pictures.



Here are two USB Microscope pictures of the blue Old Mill and a black Old Mill.


The next picture is of the Old Mill Blue and a Piedmont 350.

And finally, 2 pictures with the Old Mill Blue and a Polar Bear back.


And here are some last minute scans of the front and back in 1200dpi that were requested by Chris (atx840). For some reason they were resized maybe by the webpage. Here are the front and back links.
http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/...pst3rtbtn1.jpg
http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/...psgqutvylr.jpg


The proof is in the pudding... and I don't have much more pudding than the above. But will still take scanning requests and comparison photos.

You will have to email people the larger high resolution scans. They are too big to upload here. You can post a small section of a high resolution scan though.

[Ronnie73]

The links in my post for the 1200dpi scans should work. I know it won't show the pictures in 1200dpi here. I can also email front/back scans to anyone requesting them. Just PM your email to me.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

If that Powell is fake I'm going to dig a hole and pull the dirt in after me because I clearly can't tell the difference between real and counterfeit anymore.

EDIT: This was based on the hi-res scans

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

If that Powell is fake I'm going to dig a hole and pull the dirt in after me because I clearly can't tell the difference between real and counterfeit anymore.

I agree... These scans make this card look like the real deal and maybe the Walsh questionable. Wish I knew what comparisons were done with the Walsh when graded. They must have figured the blue ink came from somewhere. You would have thought that after it was graded by SGC, it should have been known as an Old Mill back printed in Polar Bear ink. That's if it's the same as my Powell.

[CW]

Ron, just curious if you plan to hold onto it or sell it or not sure? If you'd rather not share that here, that's obviously fine, too.

It's interesting because being more of a collector than a dealer, you may be torn between having a nice payday or keeping a super rare T206 back oddity in your collection. Either way, it's a good problem to have.

Also, I'm not sure I could wait until the National in July. It would be hard to resist sending it off to SGC to get their opinion on it.

Thanks for the additional scans.

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by CW

Ron, just curious if you plan to hold onto it or sell it or not sure? If you'd rather not share that here, that's obviously fine, too.

It's interesting because being more of a collector than a dealer, you may be torn between having a nice payday or keeping a super rare T206 back oddity in your collection. Either way, it's a good problem to have.

Also, I'm not sure I could wait until the National in July. It would be hard to resist sending it off to SGC to get their opinion on it.

Thanks for the additional scans.

Not really sure what I will do with it, if it's graded real. Just being a small part of T206 history is actually enough for me. I'd probably enjoy a nice T206 Plank a bit more. As far as oddities, I have plenty to keep me busy. Owning a majority of the Sweet Caporal No Prints.

Only thing is, I'm more of a PSA guy but question if PSA would even get involved in grading it. If selling it, it would probably be easier to grade with SGC.

[ullmandds]

sure looks legit to me...congrats Ronnie!

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

sure looks legit to me...congrats Ronnie!

Thanks Pete!!

[MVSNYC]

When we first discussed the Walsh here in 2012, we (the ones who held it) had said it looked like Polar Bear blue (as noted, it was darker than Piedmont). Appears the same with this Powell.

This hi-res overlapped photos are incredibly detailed. Very cool analysis and presentation.

[Ronnie73]

Here's one more. This is on the flatbed scanner at 1200dpi.

[Ronnie73]

One more on the flatbed scanner. It's odd that it looks closer to the Piedmont on the Flatbed and more like the Polar Bear on the microscope.

[Rhotchkiss]

That last pic is great Ron. It sure does look polar bear(ish) and pretty much proves it’s not piedmont blue.

Now I am no expert (not even close) at when certain backs are issued, so this is a genuine question - were polar bears printed with the same subjects as old mill? Does it matter? I guess my question is, as Ted suggested with Piedmont, is it plausible, based on print groups, that they could have run polar bears and then switched over to old mills without changing ink?