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  #1  
Old 07-16-2009, 09:49 PM
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Default More on Dave Forman

http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/ite...ue-for-sp.html

Just when it became page 2 news...Seems pretty much like a rehash of the first article. Think both parties would do far better in the public eye if this had not been written. Nothing new so why print it???
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  #2  
Old 07-16-2009, 09:52 PM
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Hmmm... the predictions by Dave's lawyer appear new or at least stated more colorfully.
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  #3  
Old 07-16-2009, 09:57 PM
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“The depositions are going to be utter annihilation. They will have to talk about the massive criminal fraud they have perpetuated. Doug can charm money out of hobbyist’s pockets, but he’ll have a much harder time with a lawyer.”

Go get em Jeff!
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  #4  
Old 07-16-2009, 10:00 PM
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Perpetuated??
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  #5  
Old 07-16-2009, 10:13 PM
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Default Can't wait for the National!

Should be very interesting.
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  #6  
Old 07-16-2009, 10:18 PM
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  #7  
Old 07-16-2009, 10:24 PM
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The only annihilation I see here is to both sides and their respective companies if this matter cannot be promptly settled.
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  #8  
Old 07-16-2009, 10:32 PM
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It seems hard for me to believe that Mastro would sue Forman for $400,000 if that's not what is owed....and suing because the comic book deal fell through is just hilariously pitiful. I think it's clear that Jeff took this case so he could ask questions that may not be related to Forman (ie shilling)...or maybe it was the free SGC vouchers for life?
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  #9  
Old 07-16-2009, 10:39 PM
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This is a real mess... a mess for auctions, a mess for grading...

And there's a family out there, it is a real life disaster for them.
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  #10  
Old 07-16-2009, 10:42 PM
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Two sentences that seem very strange to me when read together.

"Instead, Lichtman says, they were sold at a Mastro Auction for much less than Forman might have gotten at a future date with a different auction house.

Lichtman also says that Forman was the victim of shill bidding and other fraudulent activities under investigation by the FBI."

So Mastro wasn't shilling any of Forman's consignments but were with others?

and this....


"Doug can charm money out of hobbyist’s pockets, but he’ll have a much harder time with a lawyer.”

Hasn't said lawyer already spent a good deal of money with the former?

Last edited by Orioles1954; 07-16-2009 at 10:43 PM.
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  #11  
Old 07-17-2009, 07:15 AM
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I believe the implication is that by the time Forman's cards sold Mastro had stopped its alleged shilling because of the FBI investigation into its alleged shilling.

This is going to be very interesting to watch unfold, but it didn't result in the consignors being cheated. That is entirely the misconduct of Mastro in either releasing items w/o payment or diverting payments from their intended recipients to fund its own activities. I don't know IL law but out here we charitably refer to that as "conversion" and uncharitably call it "embezzlement."
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  #12  
Old 07-17-2009, 12:17 PM
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Is Mr. Lichtman going to the National ?
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  #13  
Old 07-17-2009, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
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Is Mr. Lichtman going to the National ?
I think he was looking for someone to share a room with.
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  #14  
Old 07-17-2009, 01:54 PM
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Good read...thanks for posting it. As previously posted, this could get interesting.

I just have to add though that everytime I see Michael O'Keeffe's name and "The Sports Investigative Team" I begin to think about the movie Anchorman.

Anyone else?

Jantz
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  #15  
Old 07-17-2009, 03:22 PM
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Default None of this passes the smell test

It would indeed be interesting to find out more about the cards that Dave Forman consigned to Mastro. Were they SGC graded cards? If so, were the cards worthy of the assigned grades? This is particularly bothersome if Forman is already in debt with the auction house.

Clearly there's a lot that has yet to be brought out. From the prior article it is clear that Forman was not a rank and file bidder on Mastro's auctions, otherwise why after not paying for items won and not paid in 2007 would they let him continue to bid on auctions in 2008? There was clearly some type of cozy relationship between the two parties and perhaps a public trial with sworn testimonies from both sides will be the best means of getting to the bottom of this mess.

Last edited by WhenItWasAHobby; 07-17-2009 at 03:25 PM. Reason: spelling
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  #16  
Old 07-17-2009, 04:14 PM
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"Forman had given the cards to Mastro Auctions for a future sale, but when the economy turned sour, Forman decided to hold on to the cards. Instead, Lichtman says, they were sold at a Mastro Auction for much less than Forman might have gotten at a future date with a different auction house."

What?

Forman didn't look at the catalog (on-or-off-line), see that his cards were being auctioned, and have them pulled?

Please.
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  #17  
Old 07-17-2009, 04:19 PM
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Don't know anything about the specifics of this instance, but, if I remember correctly, there was another poster on one of these threads who claimed that he had consigned to Mastro before they were "sold". He claimed he had asked for his cards back once they were shifted to Legendary and his request was declined.
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  #18  
Old 07-17-2009, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Atkatz View Post
"Forman had given the cards to Mastro Auctions for a future sale, but when the economy turned sour, Forman decided to hold on to the cards. Instead, Lichtman says, they were sold at a Mastro Auction for much less than Forman might have gotten at a future date with a different auction house."

What?

Forman didn't look at the catalog (on-or-off-line), see that his cards were being auctioned, and have them pulled?

Please.

That is pretty odd.
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  #19  
Old 07-17-2009, 04:46 PM
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Thanks for the article.

Ongoing litigation is going to cause irreparable damage to both companies as well as the entire hobby. With so many allegations of criminal activity by both sides, I am sure neither of the principals really want to give testimony under oath.
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  #20  
Old 07-17-2009, 05:52 PM
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Wes,

Who cares what they want???? I know what we want. I exchanged emails with Doug a few days ago and I was not reassured of what the true nature of their relationship was/is with Dave. All very unsettling.

Greg
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  #21  
Old 07-17-2009, 06:28 PM
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Default Trust No One Double Check Every One

For than 20 years- Trust no one-double check everyone has been our mantra"

We have long believed that most hobby dealers attempt to "buy junk and sell antiques." Of course, crime, scams and shill bidding has existed as long as someone has paid good money for a collectible.

We predicted a depression, the collapse of a major auction house and a major drop in the stock market.

And now we predict that when the criminal investigations are completed a number of major hobby players will be in trouble and a slew of collector/investors will either stop investing or "dump their collections."

There have been several cases in the past when the quick departure of a major collector fostered a significant drop in prices.

Regardless of how wealthy someone is, they will not invest millions of dollars on items when the authenticity and auction billing is in question. If the most important grading service falls; the founder of the leading auction house in the hobby goes to jail, and the numerous other auctions which shill are closed,the hobby will face its own Hiroshima.

Those are guilty must be severely punished. We must show no mercy.
It is time to cleanse the hobby of thieves. We look forward to the day when those who have cheated us are locked away with their hero, Mr. Madoff.
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  #22  
Old 07-17-2009, 06:34 PM
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Bruce is getting soft in his old age. He used to call for the death penalty for these types of offenses.
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  #23  
Old 07-17-2009, 06:54 PM
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A post on the other thread indicates that Dave consigned three SGC graded lots, including one set, an SGC 98 Jackie Robinson Bowman card, and an SGC 84 T205 Cobb.
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  #24  
Old 07-17-2009, 06:55 PM
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Welcome back, Bruce! (Or is it really Criswell?)

Either way, still a hoot!
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  #25  
Old 07-17-2009, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley View Post
Thanks for the article.

Ongoing litigation is going to cause irreparable damage to both companies as well as the entire hobby. With so many allegations of criminal activity by both sides, I am sure neither of the principals really want to give testimony under oath.

Wes, are you suggesting we hobbyists are better off not knowing the truth?
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  #26  
Old 07-17-2009, 07:22 PM
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Actually Peter, Mastro has only identified 4 lots consigned to them by Dave and 3 of those were lots consisting of SGC graded cards. The total for the 4 lots only generated $197,500 in net consignment proceeds out of a reported total consignment figure of over $569,000. So there is still lots of information missing.
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  #27  
Old 07-17-2009, 07:25 PM
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Greg, thanks for the clarification. For those of us (apparently a slim minority) who care about the appearance of conflict of interest (card dealer owning grading service), it would also be interesting to know what Dave bought.
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  #28  
Old 07-17-2009, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Wes, are you suggesting we hobbyists are better off not knowing the truth?

Of course not, Peter. All collectors should want to know the truth as we all devote so much time and money in this hobby. And if we can have access to the transcripts from these proceedings with testimony from Dave Forman and Doug Allen, that may help us learn the real answers to some of the questions that we have about SGC and Mastro. I do think Jeff is right though in that "The depositions are going to be utter annihilation."
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  #29  
Old 07-17-2009, 07:49 PM
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Well we know he did not buy a certain comic book.
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  #30  
Old 07-17-2009, 08:08 PM
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Wes I certainly would like to know the truth about subjects at issue or potentially at issue in this case, but I don't think it will come out. First, the case, in my ever so humble opinion, should settle -- the debt seems clear enough and the fact that so much of it is interest gives flexibility. Second, even if it goes forward, people could take the 5th on certain lines of questioning -- which I guess would tell us something -- or, more likely, lie under oath. Third, there could be a protective order that would prevent disclosure to the public.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 07-17-2009 at 08:10 PM.
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  #31  
Old 07-17-2009, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
A post on the other thread indicates that Dave consigned three SGC graded lots, including one set, an SGC 98 Jackie Robinson Bowman card, and an SGC 84 T205 Cobb.
I've seen the Cobb and it is beautiful and deserving of the grade. (if I'm thinking of the right one) Not sure of the others.

When its all said and done. I'd be surprised if the SGC cards were not deserving of their grades.
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  #32  
Old 07-17-2009, 08:16 PM
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Who wants to see Dave Forman and Doug Allen both attend the Net54 dinner ???? As Mr. Spock would say, "That would be interesting"
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  #33  
Old 07-17-2009, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Wes I certainly would like to know the truth about subjects at issue or potentially at issue in this case, but I don't think it will come out. First, the case, in my ever so humble opinion, should settle -- the debt seems clear enough and the fact that so much of it is interest gives flexibility. Second, even if it goes forward, people could take the 5th on certain lines of questioning -- which I guess would tell us something -- or, more likely, lie under oath. Third, there could be a protective order that would prevent disclosure to the public.

That would be great for Mastro and SGC then.
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  #34  
Old 07-18-2009, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yankeefan51 View Post
For than 20 years- Trust no one-double check everyone has been our mantra"

And now we predict that when the criminal investigations are completed a number of major hobby players will be in trouble and a slew of collector/investors will either stop investing or "dump their collections."
Bruce- I understand your sentiments but I can't do it. I trust an awful lot of guys here on this board and that has come through making deals with them and/or communicating with them in person or on the phone or by emails. Not everyone gets my absolute trust, but a lot of collectors here do. I don't share your dire forecast for the collectors in the hobby but do think you are probably right when it comes to the investors in the hobby. Personally, I look forward to the day when some of the collectors/investors get out and prices do fall. I will be avidly buying if and when that time comes. In the meantime I'll continue to trust my fellow collectors. How can you not? In my case I have been the recipient of several acts of complete and total kindness in the gift of cards I needed and have reciprocated with cards to other collectors who needed something I could part with at no cost.
Trust is a two way street and I am proud to have it with so many. Ok, maybe I am a tad gullible or naive but I think a lot of people here share my sentiments.
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  #35  
Old 07-22-2009, 10:09 AM
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Default More about?

Shouldn't we at least change the title of this thread to "More about Dave Forman"?
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  #36  
Old 07-22-2009, 10:24 AM
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I agree Mike. Let's keep the name-calling to a minimum.
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  #37  
Old 07-22-2009, 10:34 AM
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Default Possible scandals aside, most collectors will not flee our beloved hobby!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yankeefan51 View Post
And now we predict that when the criminal investigations are completed a number of major hobby players will be in trouble and a slew of collector/investors will either stop investing or "dump their collections."
Interesting point, but I respectfully disagree.

First, regardless of the ubiquitous financial scandals of the past few years, most people have not dumped their entire stock/mutual fund portfolios.

Second, possible scandals within the hobby aside, I think that seasoned collectors are generally prone to remain in the hobby for the very simple reason that they are generally able to inspect the collectibles they purchase (or are considering purchasing) and evaluate them with the aid of their own knowledge, expertise, preferences, and collecting goals. In other words, regardless of the scandals, a collector at The National can hold that T206 Walter Johnson SGC 84 in his hand, inspect the slab, measure the card, etc. That same collector cannot do the same with his IBM stock. The difference is that the seasoned collector who purchases the T206 Walter Johnson SGC 84 is generally more confident in his purchase than he is with his purchase of 1,000 shares of IBM.

Third, after he makes the purchase, he can hold that T206 Johnson in his hand, store it in his home safely, etc.; his ownership of 1,000 shares of IBM is a heckuva lot more nebulous.

Fourth, and perhaps this is my most important point. What would you rather look at while you are sitting on your couch watching the ballgame:

a) Your snow white SGC graded card box full of T206 SGC 84s; or

b) The piece of paper (written in hyrogliphics) that your local brokerage house mailed to you which lists your IBM shares somehwere around page 4 (shares that the brokerage house is holding for you in "street name," I might add)?
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  #38  
Old 07-22-2009, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
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I agree Mike. Let's keep the name-calling to a minimum.
Steve,

Great use of the winking smiley!
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  #39  
Old 07-22-2009, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
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In my case I have been the recipient of several acts of complete and total kindness in the gift of cards I needed and have reciprocated with cards to other collectors who needed something I could part with at no cost.
Good point, as well. This is yet another facet of our hobby which is unique in the investment arena. To piggy-back my last post, when was the last time that IBM (sorry to keep using IBM as my example) sent you a gift basket for purchasing their shares?
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  #40  
Old 07-22-2009, 12:27 PM
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When I want to invest, I buy stocks, bonds, mutual funds or real estate. I buy baseball cards and memorabilia for enjoyment. If they hold their value...fine. If they lose some value... I won't lose sleep over it. There are too many "investors" in the hobby. Should the problems referred to in this thread cause a few "investors" to leave the hobby, so be it. My collection may lose some of its potential resale value, but buying opportunities will be created.
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