This is the problem with grading...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Oh no, time for another Paul vs. Jeff showdown.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Oh no, time for another Paul vs. Jeff showdown.

I can cut to the end of that argument: "My name is Paul, and I will bid in an auction house that fraudulently shill bids me. I have never paid more for an item than I wanted to. I have $32 to my name."

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

I can cut to the end of that argument: "My name is Paul, and I will bid in an auction house that fraudulently shill bids me. I have never paid more for an item than I wanted to. I have $32 to my name."

[calvindog]

Shill bidding is a crime. Whether or not anyone cares if they're the victim of a crime does not change the fact that it is a crime. And crimes in which victims do not lose money (for example if the shill bid is placed much lower than the item's final price) does not change the fact that a crime has been committed.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Bully!

[calvindog]

Peter, agreed!

[smtjoy]

"I have bought many, many cards from rick probstein over the past several years. I have never suspected anything pertaining some of these accusations that are being made on this thread. "

I have too and im sure many of Ricks auctions are fine because it really gets down to the consignor, if they dont shill/bid their own auctions then you will win a card at the right price, just like the seller of the 1973 Shell PSA 8 for $47. The problem was the winner Pang21 who won and then reconsigned and then shilled his own auctions. While Im sure Rick has tons of business and does not track every bid, he does manage to invoice all his consignors his fees on each of these 10k monthly auctions and now that it has been brought to his attention the shilling what does he plans to do about it. He does have control, once a consignor shills he can just no longer accept consignments and block them as a bidder.

I remember when PWCC was questioned that he allowed a single safety bid, he was on here and posted that at one time he had allowed it but that was no longer the case and he did not allow any shilling by consignors, I give him props for at least addressing the issue.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by smtjoy

"I have bought many, many cards from rick probstein over the past several years. I have never suspected anything pertaining some of these accusations that are being made on this thread. "

I have too and im sure many of Ricks auctions are fine because it really gets down to the consignor, if they dont shill/bid their own auctions then you will win a card at the right price, just like the seller of the 1973 Shell PSA 8 for $47. The problem was the winner Pang21 who won and then reconsigned and then shilled his own auctions. While Im sure Rick has tons of business and does not track every bid, he does manage to invoice all his consignors his fees on each of these 10k monthly auctions and now that it has been brought to his attention the shilling what does he plans to do about it. He does have control, once a consignor shills he can just no longer accept consignments and block them as a bidder.

I remember when PWCC was questioned that he allowed a single safety bid, he was on here and posted that at one time he had allowed it but that was no longer the case and he did not allow any shilling by consignors, I give him props for at least addressing the issue.

So he tells Pang21 to cut it out, or he blocks him. If Pang21 really wants to bump the auction he just uses another ID, or asks a friend to bid saying he will reimburse him if he wins. With so many issues plaguing the hobby, why waste time on this?

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So he tells Pang21 to cut it out, or he blocks him. If Pang21 really wants to bump the auction he just uses another ID, or asks a friend to bid saying he will reimburse him if he wins. With so many issues plaguing the hobby, why waste time on this?

A card just went from $47 to 3k in a week with no doctoring involved.... Seems like a good issue to waste some time on... What if someones grandma bought the card, or it's some guy trying to leave something valueable to his family?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

A card just went from $47 to 3k in a week with no doctoring involved.... Seems like a good issue to waste some time on... What if someones grandma bought the card, or it's some guy trying to leave something valueable to his family?

Yeah, I specifically said above I was concerned about overgraded cards, I was referring to Pang21 supposedly bidding on his own consignments.

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yeah, I specifically said above I was concerned about overgraded cards, I was referring to Pang21 supposedly bidding on his own consignments.

Fair enough, and you're right, the grading is a bigger issue.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So he tells Pang21 to cut it out, or he blocks him. If Pang21 really wants to bump the auction he just uses another ID, or asks a friend to bid saying he will reimburse him if he wins. With so many issues plaguing the hobby, why waste time on this?

LOL are these mutually exclusive events? Can't Net 54 members do two things at once? If someone is caught selling trimmed cards can't he also have a friend sell his trimmed cards for him? I think calling out fraud regardless of the size of it is only a positive thing. You never know if law enforcement is reading these pages.

[Peter_Spaeth]

To date, as far as I know, noone has been "caught" selling trimmed cards. All the ones I suspect are still on the loose. EDIT TO ADD I would have mentioned the T206 Wagner, but David Hall denied it.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

To date, as far as I know, noone has been "caught" selling trimmed cards. All the ones I suspect are still on the loose. EDIT TO ADD I would have mentioned the T206 Wagner, but David Hall denied it.

You could be wrong.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

You could be wrong.

So prove me wrong.

[Ronnie73]

I'm not ok with shill bidding but since I have a determined max bid in mind before I actually bid, it tends to not really effect me since I place my bid in the last second. One of two things happens, I either get a great deal since I would never overpay for a card or I am outbid in the last second in which case, the card sold for more than I was willing to pay. Ebay is the only one that can track possible shilling, not Rick. Rick could have an idea if its happening but as others have said, its just a matter of setting up another ebay user id. No matter how this all plays out, I still look forward to Ricks listings and will still continue to bid and buy from him.

[peterose4hof]

Anyone who says they are ok with being shilled is an absolute fool.