T206 Reference / Reflections.....Tuesday Nite Trivia

[Charger74]

You mention a Group B in Post 181, are these the only 28 with this back or are there others, in another group. Thanks in advance for your answer.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Charger74

You mention a Group B in Post 181, are these the only 28 with this back or are there others, in another group. Thanks in advance for your answer.

Hi

The 350/460 series comprises of 63 subjects. Towards the end of the T206 production (circa..early 1911), American Lithographic divided these cards into the 2 print groups (which I've
designated as Group A and Group B)......



Group A

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Group B




All 63 of these cards were printed with the SWEET CAP, Factory #30 backs. But, they were NEVER issued to Factory #30 in New York to be inserted into cigarette packs. Instead,
they were stamped with Factory #42 overprints and shipped to the Liggett & Myers plant in Durham, NC. This change was done by ATC in anticipation of their divestiture in 1911.

Apparently, a recent find of a sheet (or several sheets) containing these 28 subjects (Group B) was discovered and (unfortunately) it was cut into individual cards.

Some years ago, a "scrap" sheet containing the 35 subjects in Group A was discovered with SWEET CAP, Factory #30 backs. Unfortunately, it was cut into individual cards.


This "proof" card of Johnson is an example of the 35 cards that were on the Group A sheet......


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Also, check-out Posts #4, 5, and 8 in this thread for more info regarding the 350/460 series cards.



TED Z
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[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * *





Back in 1980, when Bill Heitman published his famous book "the Monster", red HINDU cards very virtually unknown. The red HINDU back is not mentioned in "The Monster".
My understanding is that only a half a dozen of these very rare cards were known back in the 1970's, and T206 collectors did not really know what to make of them.

Since then, red HINDU cards have "trickled out of the woodwork". In recent years, a find of 13 red HINDU cards occurred in Texas. Ten of these 13 cards are subjects in the
460-only series Exclusive 12 group. The red HINDU's in the 350/460 series are considerably more difficult to find than the Exclusive 12 guys with red HINDU.

For you rare back collectors here are factors (rules) to keep in mind when you are chasing after certain T206 front/back combos......

In the 350/460 series......the red HINDU cards are "matched pairs" with the BROAD LEAF 460 cards (printed circa..late 1910).

Furthermore, T206's with these backs are mutually-exclusive with AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 and UZIT cards (printed early 1911).

This hypothesis was first presented on this forum in April 2010 in this fascinating thread.... http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...=122474&page=2

This mutually-exclusive factor is the result of American Lithographic dividing the 63 subjects in the 350/460 series into 2 print groups (at the end of their T206 production.
Circa..late 1910 > early 1911. I have designated these 2 print groups as Group A and Group B. The red HINDU's and BROAD LEAF 460 backs were printed on these subjects
in Group A.

Group A
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Checklist…...total = 44

To date, 32 subjects have been confirmed with the red HINDU back in the 350/460 series.

Baker
Bender (no trees)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Chance (portrait-yellow)
Chase (blue)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Davis (A's)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (Chicago-yellow sky)
Griffith (bat)
Johnson (pitching)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)

Magee (bat)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
Murphy (batting)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Street (fielding)
Sweeney (fielding)
Willis (throwing)
CYoung (glove)

The following 3 subjects have yet to be confirmed with the red HINDU back. I expect all three will eventually be found.

Ames (hands above head)
Mathewson (dark cap)
Reulbach (no glove)


460-only series......Exclusive 12

These 12 confirmed subjects are the only red HINDU cards in the 460-only series. Furthermore, these 12
are definitely more available with the red HINDU back than the above listed subjects in the 350/460 series.
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Crandall (cap)
Devore
Duffy
Ford
Gandil
Geyer
Hummel
McGraw (glove at hip)
Pfeffer
Sheckard (glove)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Wheat



Red HINDU is one of my favorite T206 backs. Currently, I have 14 of them. Here's a sampling of HINDU's in my collection.

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My first red HINDU (acquired in the 1980's)

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Hey guys...... how's about posting some of your red HINDU cards here....let's see how many different cards we can come up with ?



TED Z

T206 Reference
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[Sean]

Ted, here's a quote from Heitman:

Most Hindu backs are printed in brown and according to the theory contain only fronts which were issued with the Series 150 cards. However, recently at least six Hindu backs with a distinct red rather than brown back printing have been found. All six fronts correspond to player poses issued only in the 460 series. Unfortunately, not enough is known about this apparent anomaly to theorize about the Hindu red printed backs."

So Heitman was aware of them, but had only the most basic information about them. I'll try to post a scan of my only RH in a couple days.

[tedzan]

1st Issue (Nov-Dec 1962)

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Hi Sean

I mixed up my information. Frank Nagy, who was one of the first collectors to publish a checklist the T206 set in the Sport Hobbyist,
made no mention of the red HINDU back.

Bill Heitman told me that only half a dozen red HINDU cards were known back in the 1970's.

Sorry, about the mix-up.

Anyway, don't you find it very strange that red HINDU's were virtually unknown 50-60 years after they were printed and issued ?



TED Z
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[Sean]

Originally Posted by tedzan

1st Issue (Nov-Dec 1962)

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Anyway, don't you find it very strange that red HINDU's were virtually unknown 50-60 years after they were printed and issued ?



TED Z
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As a matter of fact, I find it very surprising. I can understand why a Piedmont Fact 42 or Doyle variation could go unnoticed, but the Hindu Red should stand out from the Hindu Browns. And while rare, there were still plenty of them around, especially the exclusive twelve , which are easy to find with a RH back.

Cobb backs were incredibly rare, and even the MAGIE is relatively rare and easy to miss, yet they were known. How could no one ever see a Red Hindu and say Hey, this back is different?

[Sean]

By the way, I love that Donlin. I sometimes think about doing a Donlin back run. He's my favorite player from that era... a stereotypical drunk Irishman who could really hit.