Honus Wagner Patterson NJ BB team photo 1896???

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Also, I have never understood the thought process that somehow the Consignor is somehow “owed” or “deserves” top dollar for their item, especially if they have no idea what it is or why it is worth money. There is nothing sacred about their claim any more than the collector that is looking to purchase an item and SURPRISE would love to find something for a good deal.

If anybody was at an antique show (not a baseball card show) and they were going through a paper dealers stuff and found a nice card or item (say for example something like a small stack of Old Judge cards with a Deacon White and Bid McPhee in there) and the seller was asking $20/each for the cards... every person that knows would buy that stack of cards right then and there. The reality is that that dealer probably paid far less then what they were selling them for, there is no sacred duty to help that collector/dealer to maximize returns.

I do not completely agree with this. I feel a consignor is owed or deserves top dollar for their material if they are relying on the auction house, as experts, to properly market and sell the item for them. Especially if the consignor is not an expert or has the connections or the means to sell the material themselves. To suggest otherwise implies if you had an auction house you would not feel obligated to do that for your consignors.

In your example, the paper dealer selling OJs for $20 each is a different story. They are in the business of selling second hand material. They may not be card experts but they are experts in the business of selling and should know enough to know who to ask or where to find the value of those OJs. If not that is on them.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

A few months ago, an elderly neighbor called me to look at some mail she received. Her husband died a few months ago and she received a letter in the mail from some sketchy real estate company offering to buy her house in cash immediately. For about half of what it was worth. I guess this is a business angle. Comb the obituaries and find widows who are floundering financially and try to get their home for about half of its fair market value.

I reviewed the letter to her and explained that these guys were trying to get her home for a fraction of what it was worth and she should throw the letter in the garbage.

Did I "out" their business model. Should I feel terrible about what I did?

You really didn't understand what I was writing did you!?! You just want to argue so I'm not going to go down that rabbit-hole with you.

Obviously, being a terrible person and taking advantage of an elderly person would be a bad thing.

This isn't a hard concept people!

I get where Jay is coming from as well as there have been items that I would have loved to have a chance at but didn't see the item until after the fact. I didn't enjoy that but I probably should have looked harder I suppose.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

I do not completely agree with this. I feel a consignor is owed or deserves top dollar for their material if they are relying on the auction house, as experts, to properly market and sell the item for them. Especially if the consignor is not an expert or has the connections or the means to sell the material themselves. To suggest otherwise implies if you had an auction house you would not feel obligated to do that for your consignors.

Absolute nonsense!

If I had an Auction House, I wouldn't do a horrible job marketing an item. Not all auction houses are created equally.

You are actually suggesting that to not help a consignor attain maximum value for an item at an auction house (who are paid to do a job) is the same as me ripping off a theoretical consignor?

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

A few months ago, an elderly neighbor called me to look at some mail she received. Her husband died a few months ago and she received a letter in the mail from some sketchy real estate company offering to buy her house in cash immediately. For about half of what it was worth. I guess this is a business angle. Comb the obituaries and find widows who are floundering financially and try to get their home for about half of its fair market value.

I reviewed the letter to her and explained that these guys were trying to get her home for a fraction of what it was worth and she should throw the letter in the garbage.

Did I "out" their business model. Should I feel terrible about what I did?

Sorry, but I have a hard time believing your story that just conveniently happened a few months ago... perfect timing to make a nonsensical comparison to the thread right? And you're comparing someone who offers someone an unsolicited low ball offer to someone purchasing an item at what the seller wanted or expected. These two things are completely different. You can't see that?

So if you're some marauding do-gooder so concerned with ignorant sellers getting the same amount as people that actually research and do the work...
then why aren't you spending day and night patrolling the web, looking to help those completely unfortunate individuals to make sure they get every penny you wrongfully think they deserve?

Hurry Steven!! Someone somewhere is getting an item a nickel cheaper than market value... Ohh the unjust horror!

...I should add this is mostly in jest, but c'mon, let's not be delusional.
What ever happened to personal responsibility in society????

[rainier2004]

That was a horrible job to market the piece by the AH, that is the AHs responsibility and if they do not know they should reach out. That is the difference in AHs, that is exactly what they are suppose to do. If I consigned that item not knowing what I had and strolled across this thread right now Id be pissed. Anyone can thrown a card in an auction, not everyone knows how to market what they have to the right audience. The AH did a major disservice to the consignor.

S Suckow

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Absolute nonsense!

You are actually suggesting that to not help a consignor attain maximum value for an item at an auction house (who are paid to do a job) is the same as me ripping off a theoretical consignor?

I am suggesting nothing. I stated that a consignor is owed and deserves top dollar if they contract with an AH to sell their goods which is contrary to what you wrote. You were the one suggesting that a consignor who does not know the value of what they have is not entitled to top dollar. If the consignor is not an expert and turns to an expert then they should not be dismissed.

[Snapolit1]

Actually it happened to my mother, but I didn't care to interject a lot of personal stuff into the discussion.

And Rhys, while I responded to your post, I wasn't addressing you specifically, but the general concept that somehow interfering with a lopsided transaction is a terrible thing to do.

And I totally agree that the AH deserves a lot of blame here.

Originally Posted by Huysmans

Sorry, but I have a hard time believing your story that just conveniently happened a few months ago... perfect timing to make a nonsensical comparison to the thread right? And you're comparing someone who offers someone an unsolicited low ball offer to someone purchasing an item at what the seller wanted or expected. These two things are completely different. You can't see that?

So if you're some marauding do-gooder so concerned with ignorant sellers getting the same amount as people that actually research and do the work...
then why aren't you spending day and night patrolling the web, looking to help those completely unfortunate individuals to make sure they get every penny you wrongfully think they deserve?

Hurry Steven!! Someone somewhere is getting an item a nickel cheaper than market value... Ohh the unjust horror!

...I should add this is mostly in jest, but c'mon, let's not be delusional.
What ever happened to personal responsibility in society????

[barrysloate]

Since the majority who posted here prefer the no outing "rule", and since some still do find hidden gems on places like ebay, then that's the way to go. I don't search ebay much anymore, so I'll defer to those who do.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

You were the one suggesting that a consignor who does not know the value of what they have is not entitled to top dollar.

I don't really believe anyone is "entitled" to anything in this world.

You would be hard-pressed to find someone in this hobby that tries to treat other people with more respect and gives information and knowledge more freely to others than I do. There is no obligation to do so and there never has been a mandate dictating that it be done. I enjoy doing so because it is fun but to many their knowledge is theirs and they use it to the best of their ability to help themselves... that is their right to do so as they own their own knowledge and have worked hard to attain it.

I'm not getting the righteous indignation here.

[the-illini]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Chris-I hear you, but helping the seller achieve a market price is only part of it. Discussing an auction is also giving all potential buyers the opportunity to bid on the item, so no one misses something they collect and may have been looking for. In most markets full disclosure of information is the law. I am just suggesting that full disclosure in the hobby market benefits both the seller and potential buyers, and through increased transparency the hobby in general.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree Jay. In 20 years of being a member of this and other message boards, I don't believe I have never seen a situation where people have outed an auction so that everyone gets a chance to bid on it.

If i put in the legwork to find something that was missed by 90% of the potential buyers, I don't think I should have to worry about that auction being outed on here by an uninterested party under the premise of giving everyone a chance at bidding on it. If I found it other people can too.

Moreover, that opens a pandoras box of non-altrusic uses for outing auctions. People would be using this place as a bulletin board for their auctions that they were concerned wouldn't get the price they want, among other things.

[Snapolit1]

Rhys, you have been helpful to me personally. And I appreciated it.

I’m not looking to fight with anyone. I honestly just don’t understand the argument that as collectors all of our allegiances should be with a potential buyer about to get a breathtaking deal and not with a seller about to lose something at an uniformed price.

If I listed a photo somewhere and forgot to say it was a Conlon rarity or if the AH didn’t recognize it, I’d hope someone on the board would reach out to me and tell me I’m making a huge error. But maybe that’s not how the game is played.

[Leon]

What if the consignor turned to the wrong expert?

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

I am suggesting nothing. I stated that a consignor is owed and deserves top dollar if they contract with an AH to sell their goods which is contrary to what you wrote. You were the one suggesting that a consignor who does not know the value of what they have is not entitled to top dollar. If the consignor is not an expert and turns to an expert then they should not be dismissed.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Rhys, you have been helpful to me personally. And I appreciated it.

I’m not looking to fight with anyone. I honestly just don’t understand the argument that as collectors all of our allegiances should be with a potential buyer about to get a breathtaking deal and not with a seller about to lose something at an uniformed price.

If I listed a photo somewhere and forgot to say it was a Conlon rarity or if the AH didn’t recognize it, I’d hope someone on the board would reach out to me and tell me I’m making a huge error. But maybe that’s not how the game is played.

I understand your point-- there are two legitimate perspectives. Reminds me a bit like when Net54ers decry shill bidding, but tell their friends not to bid on lots they want to suppress bids.

Invoking 'unwritten rule' never particularly impressed me-- especially since it's usually a rule seven people agreed to and decided to impose on everyone.

Here is an interesting case where people decry that a consigner is getting enough exposure for his lot, and that someone gave it exposure.

[the-illini]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

If I listed a photo somewhere and forgot to say it was a Conlon rarity or if the AH didn’t recognize it, I’d hope someone on the board would reach out to me and tell me I’m making a huge error. But maybe that’s not how the game is played.

Steve I agree with you here but what if a random Ebay seller listed a photo in an obscure category and called it a reprint and you saw the photo and recognized it was an original type 1 Conlon and planned to bid on it? Would you want someone not interested in the photo to post about it here before the auction ended in the hopes that the seller corrected the listing and/or to alert other potential interested parties?

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by the-illini

Steve I agree with you here but what if a random Ebay seller listed a photo in an obscure category and called it a reprint and you saw the photo and recognized it was an original type 1 Conlon and planned to bid on it? Would you want someone not interested in the photo to post about it here before the auction ended in the hopes that the seller corrected the listing and/or to alert other potential interested parties?

I see your point as well. Honestly I don't have super strong feelings on it either way. But some have very very strong feelings on the nondisclosure side and I have a hard time understanding that.

I remember a few years ago Christies was selling lots and some people in the area went in person and realized some of the lots were poorly identified (cabinets photos I think) and much more valuable than advertised. Do they have an obligation to tell the world about the fruits of their research? I'd say no. Are they an ahole it they decide to do so? I'd also say no.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Leon

What if the consignor turned to the wrong expert?

Is this a "If a tree falls in a forest..." question?

To answer you, I don't think it changes the point I was making which is that a layperson should be "entitled" (sorry Rhett) to not be mislead or taken advantage of by a person or business who is/are considered experts. Nobody should be disadvantaged because they are not experts.

That said, I get your point, not all experts are going to do the best job or do a good job at all. If the expert was just not great at their job then that is the cost of doing business for the consignor and an unfortunate outcome for them.

The OP stated "Also, I have never understood the thought process that somehow the Consignor is somehow “owed” or “deserves” top dollar for their item, especially if they have no idea what it is or why it is worth money." I just do not agree with his statement. Using that same logic if the OP hired a contractor to fix something in his house that he knew nothing about I guess he would be ok if the $125 job cost him $4,875 before parts??

Now if you excuse me I have a date with my TV to watch the Dodgers/Giants game.

[Dewey]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Now if you excuse me I have a date with my TV to watch the Dodgers/Giants game.

Let's go Dodgers!

[CobbSpikedMe]

No seller is "entitled" to get the best price for their item. In this case, with the Wagner, the seller may deserve a great price as it is a great piece, but he isn't entitled to it just because he put it up for sale in an auction. He is entitled to have the AH do it's due diligence and research what they are selling and market it properly to get the best price they can for their client.

As far as outing an auction goes, I am in the "it's not proper etiquette" boat. But I respect anyone's opinion even if it doesn't agree with my own.



.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Is this a "If a tree falls in a forest..." question?

To answer you, I don't think it changes the point I was making which is that a layperson should be "entitled" (sorry Rhett) to not be mislead or taken advantage of by a person or business who is/are considered experts. Nobody should be disadvantaged because they are not experts.

That said, I get your point, not all experts are going to do the best job or do a good job at all. If the expert was just not great at their job then that is the cost of doing business for the consignor and an unfortunate outcome for them.

The OP stated "Also, I have never understood the thought process that somehow the Consignor is somehow “owed” or “deserves” top dollar for their item, especially if they have no idea what it is or why it is worth money." I just do not agree with his statement. Using that same logic if the OP hired a contractor to fix something in his house that he knew nothing about I guess he would be ok if the $125 job cost him $4,875 before parts??

Now if you excuse me I have a date with my TV to watch the Dodgers/Giants game.

Wow, way to take my quote out of context! I said quite a bit more before and after making that statement, go back and read it again.

There is due diligence that needs to be done by anyone that has an object for sale, if they don't do it or simply hand it off to someone else (that may or may not do it) then that is on them, not the universe to make them "right."

This is a fight I am just not willing to have.

[prewarsports]

Im not mad at anyone and its all good, I just dont have a ton of time to come on this forum much anymore to read responses etc. In the abstract, people speak in moral high tones and that is all fine and dandy but when something they want comes up for sale and they have put in the legwork only to see it outed at the end would leave a bad taste in absolutely everyone's mouth.

I was not bidding, I just had a good friend who was and whether he would have won this or not, the thread just made my heart sink for him because I knew that once it was outed he had no chance anymore.

We move on

[Bigdaddy]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Chris-I hear you, but helping the seller achieve a market price is only part of it. Discussing an auction is also giving all potential buyers the opportunity to bid on the item, so no one misses something they collect and may have been looking for. In most markets full disclosure of information is the law. I am just suggesting that full disclosure in the hobby market benefits both the seller and potential buyers, and through increased transparency the hobby in general.

I agree 100%. How does an inefficient market benefit the hobby? How does selling/buying an item at a fraction of market price benefit anyone except the individual collector who is getting a 'steal'. Auctions are meant to bring many buyers to the table and to sell items at what the market will bear. I can not see any wrong when an item sells for what it is worth.

And just stop the "Well I sat for hours/days at my computer searching the darkest holes of the internet to find this auction and now it has been brought to other's attention and I'm not going to be able to underpay for the item."

[mechanicalman]

I find it hilarious that people are using terms like “legwork” and “research” to describe using Google on your phone while watching football. Let’s be honest.

[robertsmithnocure]

Originally Posted by drcy

Reminds me a bit like when Net54ers decry shill bidding, but tell their friends not to bid on lots they want to suppress bids.

I was thinking the same thing. Most people’s perspectives align with what benefits them.

I have no problem with the outing of auctions, but I can certainly see both sides. To me, it seems outing an auction benefits more people than it hurts, which would overall be a good thing.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Wow, way to take my quote out of context! I said quite a bit more before and after making that statement, go back and read it again.

There is due diligence that needs to be done by anyone that has an object for sale, if they don't do it or simply hand it off to someone else (that may or may not do it) then that is on them, not the universe to make them "right."

This is a fight I am just not willing to have.

Fight? For real? We, or at least I am, politely discussing/debating.

I absolutely agree that anyone selling should make efforts to know something about the material they have for sale but sometimes that is easier said than done. Should we expect a 70 year old widow to know her husband's ungraded caramel cards are in NM-MT condition as opposed to EXMT? Or that the T206 Doyle is the rare variation? Nobody can become enough of an expert that quickly to be able to fend for themselves in an environment that exists in most collectible fields.

Anyway, I did not take the quote out of context. I do not want to come off as argumentative but nothing you wrote before or after really that explained what you meant. Here is the whole statement which was made in its own mini paragraph: "Also, I have never understood the thought process that somehow the Consignor is somehow “owed” or “deserves” top dollar for their item, especially if they have no idea what it is or why it is worth money. There is nothing sacred about their claim any more than the collector that is looking to purchase an item and SURPRISE would love to find something for a good deal." And for the reasons I have stated, I simply do not agree with it but I am sure many here would support your position.

[orly57]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Rhys, you have been helpful to me personally. And I appreciated it.

I’m not looking to fight with anyone. I honestly just don’t understand the argument that as collectors all of our allegiances should be with a potential buyer about to get a breathtaking deal and not with a seller about to lose something at an uniformed price.

If I listed a photo somewhere and forgot to say it was a Conlon rarity or if the AH didn’t recognize it, I’d hope someone on the board would reach out to me and tell me I’m making a huge error. But maybe that’s not how the game is played.

First off, Steve, it’s great to have you back on here. As to the debate, I don’t think the real issue here is about protecting some buyer/collector who is about to get a breathtaking deal. I will bet that the people who are passionate about this issue happen to be the flippers/dealers who scour the internet and hunt in obscure auctions looking for deals so that THEY can later sell it for absurd amounts of money. If you “out” these auctions, you are cutting into the profits of these flippers. I want to note that I am not referring to any particular member who has posted on here, nor am I saying that a collector cant ever be affected by an “outing.” I’m saying that the loudest voices are probably coming from guys who make a living off the hobby and expect radio silence so that they can steal the item and then resell it TO A COLLECTOR for a huge profit.
Now to address the collector (as opposed to a flipper) who gets pissed when someone outs your auction item. Finding a card first doesn’t give you any right to the card. An auction is not finders-keepers. Don’t be surprised when other collectors find out about it through the internet. In fact, you should EXPECT IT! The person doing the “outing” may bother you, but he is actually helping other collectors who didn’t know about the auction and want the card just as badly as you do. Why are you more important than those collectors? You want the card more than them? Outbid them.

[rhettyeakley]

I'm out. This is insane.

There is an entire subset of the population that enjoys looking for "deals." Not because they are immoral rip-off artists, looking to "steal" items, cheat theoretical consignors, or rip off 70 year old widows. They just enjoy looking for items at prices they are happy with. There is nothing wrong with the way they decide to collect, it isn't any lesser a form of collecting than "COLLECTORS" ... whatever that means.

**Please Note** I overpay for stuff ALL THE TIME, This entire thread I am simply pointing out that I understand the different types of COLLECTORS & where they are coming from, how do you guys not?

[drcy]

I think the various viewpoints and perspectives on this topic shows that, despite what some claim when they invoke it, there is no hobby rule. Or, at least, it's a rule that not everyone agrees with. As far as I very roughly calculate in this thread, half agree with it and half don't.

Of worthy note as far as some unwritten hobby rules go, I remember back when some old timers thought it unethical for someone to place their first winning bid in the last seconds of the auction. They considered that cheating or stealing what they considered rightful person who had his bid placed there a long time. Just saying.

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

I find it hilarious that people are using terms like “legwork” and “research” to describe using Google on your phone while watching football. Let’s be honest.

I find it beyond hilarious that people are using terms like "inefficient market" to denote not every collector on earth being aware of every single auction. Or that there's an endless plethora of "70 year old widows" all in disarray due to being completely clueless regarding their husbands world class "caramel card" collections, and distinguishing between "NM-MT condition as opposed to EXMT" Completely comical to say the least....
Let's be honest.

[robertsmithnocure]

If this board has no rule against outing an auction, then I think that it is fine to do so.

Not everyone agrees with other’s “unwritten rules.”

[Exhibitman]

None of us own the auction, so none of us have the right to suppress the information on it. And if it isn't a board rule...it isn't a board rule.

Out away!

PS: as a guy who flips stuff all the time I get the frustration of seeing a great deal evaporate but a deal is not something i have a right to unless and until the seller and I agree on terms. At that point anyone stepping into my deal is interfering with my contract. But lets not confuse the two things: outing an auction doesn't affect anyone's right to a deal.

As far as AH's go, the onus is on them to get it right in terms of valuation and lotting.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by robertsmithnocure

If this board has no rule against outing an auction, then I think that it is fine to do so.

Not everyone agrees with other’s “unwritten rules.”

You are correct, but some people will get mad (I didn't say me).

[Rhotchkiss]

I think lost in all this is the fact that the auction house totally screwed the pooch here and did a horrible job for its consigner, and the consigner screwed up by picking this auction house. I will never consign anything to this auction house, but you can bet your ass I am signing up (unless they block me &#128578

Ryan Hotchkiss

[orly57]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

I'm out. This is insane.

There is an entire subset of the population that enjoys looking for "deals." Not because they are immoral rip-off artists, looking to "steal" items, cheat theoretical consignors, or rip off 70 year old widows. They just enjoy looking for items at prices they are happy with. There is nothing wrong with the way they decide to collect, it isn't any lesser a form of collecting than "COLLECTORS" ... whatever that means.

**Please Note** I overpay for stuff ALL THE TIME, This entire thread I am simply pointing out that I understand the different types of COLLECTORS & where they are coming from, how do you guys not?

Rhett,

That was not a shot at you. I’ve always liked your posts, and I know you are a respected member of this community. Who doesn’t like a deal???? I know many guys love the thrill of the hunt. I was merely referring to a large portion of the “anti-outing” crowd who do it solely for financial interest. There is obviously a sub-group of collectors such as yourself who love the hunt. Those people aren’t trying to rip anyone off. But at the same time, need to understand that in this day and age of the internet, people will find out. What’s more, it is a good thing that people find out because they want the card too. I was not inferring that you, of all people, are trying to rip anyone off. In fact, I specifically wrote that the post wasn’t directed at any one member so that you in particular wouldn’t think it was aimed at you.

[swarmee]

So are you guys on the side of outing the auctions to make it fair across the board going into auctionhouses and waiting for an auction, then stand up and scream "THIS CARD IS WORTH $8,000!!!!"? How long do you think the people bidding or even the auctionhouse would allow you to stay there? Counterpoint, after a card sells for way over the auction estimate or market value, do you also stand up and say "THE BUYER IS GETTING SCREWED!!! The sale should not go through!"

That's how I see outing auctions on this board. Even outing recently closed items, because there are plenty of immoral board members or lurkers who will read it, then immediately message the seller to cancel the auction and sell off-eBay themselves. It has happened NUMEROUS times in the few years I've been a member here.

And for you people claiming that everyone knows about every auction on eBay, you're woefully incorrect. People selling items on eBay often have no idea what their items are. If they did some research and put in appropriate keywords (their own due diligence), they would reap more from their listings.

Are only people who have half a million dollars to blow on a Honus Wagner T206 allowed or entitled to buy one? Part of collecting baseball cards is trying to be the one guy who gets the monster hit or finds the diamond in the rough. I know that I will likely never be able to afford one if I don't see it first, and priced in my zone. This board is interesting in that the millionaires are hob-nobbing with the hoi polloi. Just because it makes sense to you doesn't mean it makes sense to the rest of us.

I bought the Mantle/Bruton stamp from COMC for $100 and may now be worth $500 after grading. Do I need to seek out the original consignor and reimburse him his lost entitlement because he didn't have the foresight to grade the card himself? Or do I pat myself on the back for a job well done since I found the card sitting there for sale FOR YEARS and had the intelligence to spend my $10 to slab it?

[Dewey]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

I find it hilarious that people are using terms like “legwork” and “research” to describe using Google on your phone while watching football. Let’s be honest.

But somehow it becomes serious research when someone uses microfiche and has classical music on in the background?

[the-illini]

For all the people suggesting that outing an auction is good for the health of the hobby - I didn't realize the hobby was struggling after looking at recent sales prices and I look forward to you outing the items you are interested in buying that might be miscategorized or poorly advertised.

[CobbSpikedMe]

What about when we find a "steal" at an antique mall or flea market? Are we supposed to tell the seller that they have their OJ priced at $20 when it should be $100? Or do we buy it and then post it here in the recent pick up thread and get a bunch of pats on the back for finding such a great deal? I see that happen all the time and nobody is telling the board member that he was wrong to get a deal. So why is it so bad to get a card at auction for a steal? Why should the auction be outed? The seller is not entitled to anything. The AH should market the auction and do what they are supposed to do to get the most for the items they are selling. That's not our job.