Fake Signed T206 Cards (Too Many to List in the Title, See First Post for List)

[Hankphenom]

When I used to set up at shows with (my friend) Kevin Keating, the well-known TPAs would frequently bring items over to solicit his opinion of them, and conversely on occasion he would want to know what they thought about pieces. If memory serves correctly, when the autograph side of PSA was first organized 20 years ago, it was a team effort whereby a number of their authenticators would "vote" on submissions to determine whether they got a pass or not. The fact that different authenticators might have different opinions about some autographs shouldn't be surprising to anyone. And it seems to me the fact that the current team at PSA would have the honesty and institutional freedom to reverse a prior authentication of their company should be applauded. What more could you ask of them? As for such divergent opnions on resubmitted items calling into question all opinions rendered by the prior authenticators, anyone is free to resubmit items they think might get a different opinion today.

[jad22]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

When I used to set up at shows with (my friend) Kevin Keating, the well-known TPAs would frequently bring items over to solicit his opinion of them, and conversely on occasion he would want to know what they thought about pieces. If memory serves correctly, when the autograph side of PSA was first organized 20 years ago, it was a team effort whereby a number of their authenticators would "vote" on submissions to determine whether they got a pass or not. The fact that different authenticators might have different opinions about some autographs shouldn't be surprising to anyone. And it seems to me the fact that the current team at PSA would have the honesty and institutional freedom to reverse a prior authentication of their company should be applauded. What more could you ask of them? As for such divergent opnions on resubmitted items calling into question all opinions rendered by the prior authenticators, anyone is free to resubmit items they think might get a different opinion today.

I am sure everyone will be clamoring to pay PSA more money for somebody else to re-certify or un-certify their items.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by jad22

I am sure everyone will be clamoring to pay PSA more money for somebody else to re-certify or un-certify their items.

No, I don't think there will be a lot of that!

[packs]

A TPG renders an opinion. I don't think you can fault someone for their opinion on a given day when they assessed the authenticity of an item. It's the hobby that tries to twist TPG opinions into fact. I don't think the companies owe anyone anything if something they authenticated is later determined to be forged. It's the seller and AH that need to make things right. The TPG didn't benefit from the sale and they gave the submitter exactly what they paid for: an opinion.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by packs

A TPG renders an opinion. I don't think you can fault someone for their opinion on a given day when they assessed the authenticity of an item. It's the hobby that tries to twist TPG opinions into fact.

+1

[itslarry]

Originally Posted by packs

A TPG renders an opinion. I don't think you can fault someone for their opinion on a given day when they assessed the authenticity of an item. It's the hobby that tries to twist TPG opinions into fact. I don't think the companies owe anyone anything if something they authenticated is later determined to be forged. It's the seller and AH that need to make things right. The TPG didn't benefit from the sale and they gave the submitter exactly what they paid for: an opinion.

I agree, as long as they don't make a mistake. By that I mean authenticating something that CAN'T be real, such as signed on or with an item after death. Things of that nature aren't an opinion to me and is on them.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by itslarry

I agree, as long as they don't make a mistake. By that I mean authenticating something that CAN'T be real, such as signed on or with an item after death. Things of that nature aren't an opinion to me and is on them.

I agree. They are giving opinions and their opinions should be treated as opinions. However, there should be a level of competency and due care involved. Their feet can fairly be held to the fire by the hobby for that-- and certainly hobbyists can and should point out when their conclusions are wrong.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by drcy

I agree. They are giving opinions and their opinions should be treated as opinions. However, there should be a level of competency and due care involved. Their feet can fairly be held to the fire by the hobby for that-- and certainly hobbyists can and should point out when their conclusions are wrong.

Part of the problem is that they call themselves "authenticators".

Why does JSA charge more for certain signatures (Ruth, Gehrig, etc) than they do others? Is it because they put more time into it? I doubt it.

At what point do the AHs stop using these LOAs, CERTs, etc. as a selling point/feature? For the most part I would trust PSA, SGC and Beckett for grading cards but they should probably consider getting out of the signature "authentication" business.

After this mess, I would think JSA would re-think their business plan and start grading cards because they seem to have a difficult time "authenticating" signatures. They may have a better chance of spotting a fake card.

http://www.net54baseball.com/attachm...1&d=1544302248

[Fred]

Originally Posted by packs

A TPG renders an opinion. I don't think you can fault someone for their opinion on a given day when they assessed the authenticity of an item. It's the hobby that tries to twist TPG opinions into fact. I don't think the companies owe anyone anything if something they authenticated is later determined to be forged. It's the seller and AH that need to make things right. The TPG didn't benefit from the sale and they gave the submitter exactly what they paid for: an opinion.

Perhaps JSA should change to JSO, it would seem to be more fitting and accurate. JSOpinions.....

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Fred

Perhaps JSA should change to JSO, it would seem to be more fitting and accurate. JSOpinions.....

Wondering if he will opine

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Fred

Perhaps JSA should change to JSO, it would seem to be more fitting and accurate. JSOpinions.....

You beat me to it. I was going to suggest Professional Sports Opionators, or Sportscard Opinions..

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

A TPG renders an opinion. I don't think you can fault someone for their opinion on a given day when they assessed the authenticity of an item. It's the hobby that tries to twist TPG opinions into fact. I don't think the companies owe anyone anything if something they authenticated is later determined to be forged. It's the seller and AH that need to make things right. The TPG didn't benefit from the sale and they gave the submitter exactly what they paid for: an opinion.

Of course you can fault them. Implicit in the opinion is the representation that the grader/authenticator is competent to render an opinion. If that isn't true...

[AGuinness]

I think it would be great to hold TPGs, AHs and others involved in this accountable, BUT...

There are approximately 10,000 members on this board, not all active. That represents a small fraction of the collecting population in this country (not to mention the world). And while I've read about specific instances within this forgery scam when an AH or someone would make a customer whole after selling a forgery, what is being done in the broader hobby? I don't think I have heard of any AH or TPG addressing this in a public way, and with the authorities keeping things close to the vest (for better or for worse), how much is this scandal getting the attention of the larger collecting population?

I went to a local show shortly after this whole thread got started and the news broke. And nobody I spoke with (it was just a handful of dealers) had heard yet, and none of them were members here. Granted, this is a small show in a smaller city, but that sample size might indicate that this is flying below the radar of a vast many collectors.

I hope that EVERYONE in the hobby is aware of this, and thanks to everyone for spreading the word (including Rich and everyone at SCD with a couple stories on it). I think that with the knowledge and passion of the board members here (and most of you have forgotten more than what I'll ever know about collecting), we can put some pressure on TPGs, AHs, etc. But I think we'll need to keep spreading the word and getting people riled up about it beyond this corner of the collecting community.

[ALBB]

I have to chuckle over the statement " their not comfortable with that sig, or yes, they are comfortable with that one "

Guys spending all kinds of crazy money based of the high and mighty word of these grading company's ..and now that the heat is on...its " well, comfortable, somewhat comfortable, warm and comfortable" ...

Im sure when these company's started up way back...they never used " comfortable" in their mission statement ! ...

More like - Guarantee Promise, Authenticated , etc..

Im " comfortable " that Ive never collected autographed cards

[packs]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Of course you can fault them. Implicit in the opinion is the representation that the grader/authenticator is competent to render an opinion. If that isn't true...

How do you know they're not? I've never read a single LOA that mentions anything other than an opinion.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

How do you know they're not? I've never read a single LOA that mentions anything other than an opinion.

If you hold yourself out as an expert, which they clearly do, you are making an implicit representation about your expertise. What good is the opinion otherwise? The evidence of all their mistakes suggests to me they are less expert than they claim.

[packs]

It would suggest the same thing about the people who bought them. They were sure they were real too and I'd think at least some of them think themselves to possess all the relevant knowledge needed to make what are mostly accurate assessments of cards put in front of them. Sometimes you get fooled.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

It would suggest the same thing about the people who bought them. They were sure they were real too and I'd think at least some of them think themselves to possess all the relevant knowledge needed to make what are mostly accurate assessments of cards put in front of them. Sometimes you get fooled.

I am sure some of the forgeries would have fooled anyone, but at the same time I think it's likely that many got through as a result of incompetence. I can't post the link, but read Mr. Nash's piece on JSA.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by packs

A TPG renders an opinion. I don't think you can fault someone for their opinion on a given day when they assessed the authenticity of an item. It's the hobby that tries to twist TPG opinions into fact. I don't think the companies owe anyone anything if something they authenticated is later determined to be forged. It's the seller and AH that need to make things right. The TPG didn't benefit from the sale and they gave the submitter exactly what they paid for: an opinion.

This exactly. Way too many people follow here opinion as facts. These people are sheep and when they get slaughtered I feel very little sympathy for them. Let me clarify, you are paying for an opinion. Those opinions differ amongst authenticators. Just because you feel all warm and fuzzy doesn’t mean they should reimburse you anything. I can’t believe the arguements that people are trying to make when the opinion someone gives turns out to be wrong. It is a completely different story if you can prove that the opinion given is wrong and the authenticator is knowingly authenticating a non authentic item. People need to stop throwing blame at other people and look in the mirror.

[ejharrington]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

This exactly. Way too many people follow here opinion as facts. These people are sheep and when they get slaughtered I feel very little sympathy for them. Let me clarify, you are paying for an opinion. Those opinions differ amongst authenticators. Just because you feel all warm and fuzzy doesn’t mean they should reimburse you anything. I can’t believe the arguements that people are trying to make when the opinion someone gives turns out to be wrong. It is a completely different story if you can prove that the opinion given is wrong and the authenticator is knowingly authenticating a non authentic item. People need to stop throwing blame at other people and look in the mirror.

People pay for an educated opinion, not just an opinion. I personally feel bad for anyone who was defrauded.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

This exactly. Way too many people follow here opinion as facts. These people are sheep and when they get slaughtered I feel very little sympathy for them. Let me clarify, you are paying for an opinion. Those opinions differ amongst authenticators. Just because you feel all warm and fuzzy doesn’t mean they should reimburse you anything. I can’t believe the arguments that people are trying to make when the opinion someone gives turns out to be wrong. It is a completely different story if you can prove that the opinion given is wrong and the authenticator is knowingly authenticating a non authentic item. People need to stop throwing blame at other people and look in the mirror.

I respectfully disagree with both of you.

Imo, and although I am still learning as I go here, when I first back into the hobby and realized we now had "Authenticators" in all forms of the hobby, including signatures, I took that as a guarantee that if I submitted something that I had questions/concerns about, and, depending on what the "Expert Authenticator" deemed, I could take that to the bank that it was legit or not legit.

It's the same, imo, as finding an old painting at a flea market or something similar but not knowing, once you discovered a popular artist might have painted it, whether it is authentic or not so you send it in to a well known authenticator to find out for sure.

I am not an art collector so I don't know the ins and outs of those types of authenticators, but I am pretty sure, depending on who you send it to, that you can pretty much guarantee that whatever they say will likely stick and be the truth.

With cards and memorabilia, despite the claims of being "Experts" "The best in the business" "World's Leading", yada, yada, yada, you are still telling me the only real thing to trust is my gut?

I know now what you're saying to be true, but I guarantee, as we have seen in the past and just recently, I am not the only one who thinks this way. When you read on TPA sites that they "Authenticate" and are the "Experts" in their field, have certificates, letters of authenticity, etc, you trust those claims, (especially if you aren't an experienced, seasoned collector like me) and put all your faith in them.

Sadly, as I have learned, much/all of those claims don't mean squat and aren't worth the paper they are written on.

It's quite the racket these TPAs have going. Throw out some frivolous, meaningless claims and then watch the money roll in.

[RedsFan1941]

"Never get cheated."

[painthistorian]

After reading recent posts, and being that I was around a long time in this hobby/business, here is a quick summary of what I think really is important to the industry regarding autographs:

Pre TPG's-It was the wild west....a collector had to rely and know people that actually handled many type of autographs such as Charles Hamilton, Robert White, Max Schraeger, Bill P.(long last name, very knowledgable), Richard Simon, Lawrence(from Westbury, LI that runs monthly auctions, forgot his last name), but even then, there were many "experts" that were BS...some even ran large autograph auctions and had an agenda in that they graded their own sales merchandise and authenticated their own auction items!

Since TPG-Its has been better in that most of the crap has been filtered out and even if TPG make errors, they do have a larger exemplar file than the average collector. FUNDAMENTALLY, AUTOGRAPHS NOT RECEIVED in person or from legal/government documents are a leap of faith to some degree. The major authenticators now, well none of these guys were in the hobby before 1980's and they started as collectors, they just spent lots more time in acquiring knowledge and files. Unfortunately, some of their findings were and are wrong but that was always a problem....

"Reputable Companies" like PSA,SGC,Beckett,JSA...well most of the graders are very knowledgable, have acquired vast libraries of historical item sample. If collectors require certs, those that issue the certs with siome educated opinion deserve to be paid for their educated opinions and time depending on Supply(time) vs. Demand(the need to get a cert) and what the free market will bear.
If a collector wants them to do a thorough examination to get his "CERT" then it makes sense with the very nature of that part of the collectible world, that the THE BUYER should do their homework also. THE NATURE OF THE BUSINESS IS STILL CAVIET EMPTOR. DONT BUY ANYTHING unless you feel the percentages are vastly are in your favor FIRST! By not educating yourselves, you are MORE dependent on 3rd party graders and hence the more the cost of the grading will be...

It is IMPERATIVE for collectors to educate themselves going forward and look at as many public exemplars as possible, talk to quality & reliable dealers that have been around over 30+ years and have seen more items, just to have some check & balances if you plan to plunk down real $$$...It is better now than it was but its still a leap of faith and the free market will determine future prices and demand depending on these mentioned factors.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by irv

It's the same, imo, as finding an old painting at a flea market or something similar but not knowing, once you discovered a popular artist might have painted it, whether it is authentic or not so you send it in to a well known authenticator to find out for sure.

I am not an art collector so I don't know the ins and outs of those types of authenticators, but I am pretty sure, depending on who you send it to, that you can pretty much guarantee that whatever they say will likely stick and be the

Dale,
You’re being naive. There is more forgery in the art world than in almost all antiques. Multi million paintings shown to have been painted years after the artist died. Google search it if you have any questions.

It’s not that I don’t feel bad for some of the guys on this board and the current t206 scandal. I do. Blindly trusting authenticators and auctioneers is dumb. As others have eluded to, specifically the Baker t206, if you can’t see there’s an issue with that than I don’t know what else to say. Many of those cards look like they were signed yesterday or in the same light flowing hand and signed with the same pen. In fact they probably were. I know it’s easy to be a Monday morning quarterback, but many of those clearly have issues.

[Duluth Eskimo]

I will also add that I buy and sell autos and I make mistakes myself. Sometimes I disagree with authenticators and it’s frustrating because items that don’t pass are tough to sell. If I realize I made a mistake I blame myself for not doing more research, not someone for giving me their opinion.

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

This exactly. Way too many people follow here opinion as facts. These people are sheep and when they get slaughtered I feel very little sympathy for them. Let me clarify, you are paying for an opinion. Those opinions differ amongst authenticators. Just because you feel all warm and fuzzy doesn’t mean they should reimburse you anything. I can’t believe the arguements that people are trying to make when the opinion someone gives turns out to be wrong. It is a completely different story if you can prove that the opinion given is wrong and the authenticator is knowingly authenticating a non authentic item. People need to stop throwing blame at other people and look in the mirror.

When you pay for something, you expect to get the service performed efficiently and with some expertise.

If I went to my lawyer for his/her opinion, I would be making decisions based on their expertise.

If I went to my accountant for his/her opinion, I would be making decisions based on their expertise.

If I went to my mechanic for his/her opinion, I would be making decisions based on their expertise.

If I went to my doctor for his/her opinion, I would be making decisions based on their expertise.

All of these people theoretically have a skill set that exceed my own; that is why I pay for their services. When people here say you need to educate yourself... well, I don't have time to educate myself on all areas I may need help and advice on. I don't have time to do all the research and educate myself in medicine, law, accounting, or auto mechanics.

Why do we give these guys a free pass for failing? Most people would not be quite so easy to forgive the so-called experts in other professions.

[Republicaninmass]

This is why MOST opt for a second opinion, or 2 or 3 estimates, when something doesnt smell or feel right. Kind of like the Marquard, which started the whole thread.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Stampsfan

When you pay for something, you expect to get the service performed efficiently and with some expertise.

If I went to my lawyer for his/her opinion, I would be making decisions based on their expertise.

If I went to my accountant for his/her opinion, I would be making decisions based on their expertise.

If I went to my mechanic for his/her opinion, I would be making decisions based on their expertise.

If I went to my doctor for his/her opinion, I would be making decisions based on their expertise.

All of these people theoretically have a skill set that exceed my own; that is why I pay for their services. When people here say you need to educate yourself... well, I don't have time to educate myself on all areas I may need help and advice on. I don't have time to do all the research and educate myself in medicine, law, accounting, or auto mechanics.

Why do we give these guys a free pass for failing? Most people would not be quite so easy to forgive the so-called experts in other professions.

How do you know their skill set isn't exactly as advertised? These cards fooled seasoned veteran collectors, some of which specialize in this exact area. People get fooled sometimes. This forger was prolific and from all outward appearances (huge sales) very good at what they did. No one questioned whether or not the autographs were right. It was only found that they couldn't be right when the original scans were dug up. If the signatures were blatantly fake, that's one thing. But as we can all see from the high dollar sales of these cards, the signatures fooled almost everyone who came in contact with them.

[Daveyc]

there has been some speculation as to how long these authenticators actually spend reviewing each signature. I have been attending the HOF induction ceremony for years. James Spence and his crew are always in attendance. He usually has a couple of young guys set up at tables for authenticating autos that are being signed in person. for instance. MAB always sets up and has dozens of signers. you enter through the front door of the Inn where the signing takes place. go to the athlete you paid for and get the sigs. after which, you exit out a back door and walk around to the front of the building where JSA is set up to "authenticate" one guy will enter the player/item into their data base, the other affixes a sticker to the memorabilia. they hardly even look at the item. a forger could bring dozens of baseballs, bats, uniforms etc around the side of the building and get in line for "authentication". I have never seen an item even questioned. it is literally an assembly line. THere is absolutely no authentication going on there, just data entry. I have been watching this for years and years.

James himself also does "authentication" in Cooperstown. he sets up at the small card show. I have watched him work many many times and have been quite underwhelmed. there is usually a pretty long line, and people walk right up to him and have him "authenticate" their items in front of them. this is where vintage items are done. the absolute longest I have ever seen him look at an item is no longer than 20-30 seconds. and that was for a multi signed baseball. it is VERY fast. then he hands the item back, enters the data into his template and boom, LOA.

At least for JSA, we are not even paying for a few minutes of their time when they are authenticating items. It really is just a few seconds. it is very casual, and I felt uncomfortable having the client watching him work. Seems that there could be situations where he could be pressured into passing an item.

that is just my two cents. I was wholly unimpressed by the whole process.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by Daveyc

there has been some speculation as to how long these authenticators actually spend reviewing each signature. I have been attending the HOF induction ceremony for years. James Spence and his crew are always in attendance. He usually has a couple of young guys set up at tables for authenticating autos that are being signed in person. for instance. MAB always sets up and has dozens of signers. you enter through the front door of the Inn where the signing takes place. go to the athlete you paid for and get the sigs. after which, you exit out a back door and walk around to the front of the building where JSA is set up to "authenticate" one guy will enter the player/item into their data base, the other affixes a sticker to the memorabilia. they hardly even look at the item. a forger could bring dozens of baseballs, bats, uniforms etc around the side of the building and get in line for "authentication". I have never seen an item even questioned. it is literally an assembly line. THere is absolutely no authentication going on there, just data entry. I have been watching this for years and years.

James himself also does "authentication" in Cooperstown. he sets up at the small card show. I have watched him work many many times and have been quite underwhelmed. there is usually a pretty long line, and people walk right up to him and have him "authenticate" their items in front of them. this is where vintage items are done. the absolute longest I have ever seen him look at an item is no longer than 20-30 seconds. and that was for a multi signed baseball. it is VERY fast. then he hands the item back, enters the data into his template and boom, LOA.

At least for JSA, we are not even paying for a few minutes of their time when they are authenticating items. It really is just a few seconds. it is very casual, and I felt uncomfortable having the client watching him work. Seems that there could be situations where he could be pressured into passing an item.

that is just my two cents. I was wholly unimpressed by the whole process.

This description pretty much just told most people you have no idea what you’re talking about.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by packs

How do you know their skill set isn't exactly as advertised? These cards fooled seasoned veteran collectors, some of which specialize in this exact area. People get fooled sometimes. This forger was prolific and from all outward appearances (huge sales) very good at what they did. No one questioned whether or not the autographs were right. It was only found that they couldn't be right when the original scans were dug up. If the signatures were blatantly fake, that's one thing. But as we can all see from the high dollar sales of these cards, the signatures fooled almost everyone who came in contact with them.

Well, t least JSA is consistent in being fooled "sometimes".

I'm going to go out on a limb here - if someone (JSA, PSA or SGC) didn't cert the signatures, then there wouldn't have been near the amount of cash involved at the time the hammer hit the gavel.

Not saying that people shouldn't rely solely on certs, but that's where the appearance of validity begins. If someone or organization is getting fooled that often, then perhaps they need to re-evaluate their career path...

http://http://www.net54baseball.com/...1&d=1544487620

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

How do you know their skill set isn't exactly as advertised? These cards fooled seasoned veteran collectors, some of which specialize in this exact area. People get fooled sometimes. This forger was prolific and from all outward appearances (huge sales) very good at what they did. No one questioned whether or not the autographs were right. It was only found that they couldn't be right when the original scans were dug up. If the signatures were blatantly fake, that's one thing. But as we can all see from the high dollar sales of these cards, the signatures fooled almost everyone who came in contact with them.

Have you read Mr. Nash's post on JSA mistakes?

[irv]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Have you read Mr. Nash's post on JSA mistakes?

This is an interesting read! It's long, but worth it, imo.
https://www.riverfronttimes.com/stlo...nt?oid=2505680

I particularly liked the "Cheetah" certified sig story.

But there seems to be no ceiling to PSA and JSA's abilities. In 2010, a dealer submitted the "signature" of Cheetah, the chimpanzee purported to have appeared in the Johnny Weissmuller Tarzan serials of the 1930s. Despite the likelihood that they had no exemplars on file for primates, JSA deemed the scrawl authentic.

As it turns out, Cheetah was an imposter whose owner duped the public before a 2008 Washington Post article uncovered the truth: Weissmuller's chest-thumping co-star was long deceased.

"I don't remember the particulars of that," JSA's James Spence says of his endorsement. "I'm not prepared to answer that. I'd have to refresh my memory. I think it was done tongue in cheek."

JSA would have needed only to perform a cursory Google search to put the chimp's penmanship in context.

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by Stampsfan

When you pay for something, you expect to get the service performed efficiently and with some expertise.

If I went to my lawyer for his/her opinion, I would be making decisions based on their expertise.

If I went to my accountant for his/her opinion, I would be making decisions based on their expertise.

If I went to my mechanic for his/her opinion, I would be making decisions based on their expertise.

If I went to my doctor for his/her opinion, I would be making decisions based on their expertise.

All of these people theoretically have a skill set that exceed my own; that is why I pay for their services. When people here say you need to educate yourself... well, I don't have time to educate myself on all areas I may need help and advice on. I don't have time to do all the research and educate myself in medicine, law, accounting, or auto mechanics.

Why do we give these guys a free pass for failing? Most people would not be quite so easy to forgive the so-called experts in other professions.

Id have to disagree here. All four of those professions can held accountant and legally prosecuted and it happens all the time. Fraud and malpractice as well as a pile of other charges can accompany those and do all the time.

And my guess is you do perform some homework on this stuff. If you went in to see the doctor for a cough and s/he put you on an antidepressant you wouldn't educate yourself at all? You need some new breaks and the mechanic charges you 2k you wouldn't go seek more information? If you normally get a 5k income tax return and get a new accountant and all of sudden are getting 18k in return you wouldn't follow that up? We do it all the time.

In the end we are responsible for ourselves, medically, financially and everything else. It used to a right of passage in hobby, otherwise you just would get ripped off until you did. If you don't have time to research your "hobby" spending thousands of dollars then maybe you shouldn't be doing this if you place 100% with someone else's opinion. I thought the educating yourself was part of why we did this, its enjoyable, it starts friendships and is a major reason I am part of the hobby.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

Dale,
You’re being naive. There is more forgery in the art world than in almost all antiques. Multi million paintings shown to have been painted years after the artist died. Google search it if you have any questions.

It’s not that I don’t feel bad for some of the guys on this board and the current t206 scandal. I do. Blindly trusting authenticators and auctioneers is dumb. As others have eluded to, specifically the Baker t206, if you can’t see there’s an issue with that than I don’t know what else to say. Many of those cards look like they were signed yesterday or in the same light flowing hand and signed with the same pen. In fact they probably were. I know it’s easy to be a Monday morning quarterback, but many of those clearly have issues.

I now know I was but when I first got back into the hobby and seen these services and the claims they made plus all on here who utilized them, I assumed they were above board.

Originally Posted by packs

How do you know their skill set isn't exactly as advertised? These cards fooled seasoned veteran collectors, some of which specialize in this exact area. People get fooled sometimes. This forger was prolific and from all outward appearances (huge sales) very good at what they did. No one questioned whether or not the autographs were right. It was only found that they couldn't be right when the original scans were dug up. If the signatures were blatantly fake, that's one thing. But as we can all see from the high dollar sales of these cards, the signatures fooled almost everyone who came in contact with them.

Exactly, and why most send things into the "Experts" or "World leading" companies to remove any doubts.

Originally Posted by Daveyc

there has been some speculation as to how long these authenticators actually spend reviewing each signature. I have been attending the HOF induction ceremony for years. James Spence and his crew are always in attendance. He usually has a couple of young guys set up at tables for authenticating autos that are being signed in person. for instance. MAB always sets up and has dozens of signers. you enter through the front door of the Inn where the signing takes place. go to the athlete you paid for and get the sigs. after which, you exit out a back door and walk around to the front of the building where JSA is set up to "authenticate" one guy will enter the player/item into their data base, the other affixes a sticker to the memorabilia. they hardly even look at the item. a forger could bring dozens of baseballs, bats, uniforms etc around the side of the building and get in line for "authentication". I have never seen an item even questioned. it is literally an assembly line. THere is absolutely no authentication going on there, just data entry. I have been watching this for years and years.

James himself also does "authentication" in Cooperstown. he sets up at the small card show. I have watched him work many many times and have been quite underwhelmed. there is usually a pretty long line, and people walk right up to him and have him "authenticate" their items in front of them. this is where vintage items are done. the absolute longest I have ever seen him look at an item is no longer than 20-30 seconds. and that was for a multi signed baseball. it is VERY fast. then he hands the item back, enters the data into his template and boom, LOA.

At least for JSA, we are not even paying for a few minutes of their time when they are authenticating items. It really is just a few seconds. it is very casual, and I felt uncomfortable having the client watching him work. Seems that there could be situations where he could be pressured into passing an item.

that is just my two cents. I was wholly unimpressed by the whole process.

The only thing that would be easier is to just print the money yourself!

Originally Posted by rainier2004

Id have to disagree here. All four of those professions can held accountant and legally prosecuted and it happens all the time. Fraud and malpractice as well as a pile of other charges can accompany those and do all the time.

And my guess is you do perform some homework on this stuff. If you went in to see the doctor for a cough and s/he put you on an antidepressant you wouldn't educate yourself at all? You need some new breaks and the mechanic charges you 2k you wouldn't go seek more information? If you normally get a 5k income tax return and get a new accountant and all of sudden are getting 18k in return you wouldn't follow that up? We do it all the time.

In the end we are responsible for ourselves, medically, financially and everything else. It used to a right of passage in hobby, otherwise you just would get ripped off until you did. If you don't have time to research your "hobby" spending thousands of dollars then maybe you shouldn't be doing this if you place 100% with someone else's opinion. I thought the educating yourself was part of why we did this, its enjoyable, it starts friendships and is a major reason I am part of the hobby.

When companies come out with claims/logos that read "Experts" "World's Best", "World leading", "Guaranteed" "Largest, most trusted" "Never get Taken", etc, etc, etc, they are implying that they know what they are doing.

It's easy, imo, for some who have been in the hobby of collecting for years and years and maybe even before we had these TPA's, to recognize/know the things that have been said in this thread, but I also know there are many every year that join or rejoin the hobby, like me, who don't know all these things.
If these TPA companies weren't so forthright with their claims and logos and put a disclaimer right on the front page stating their grading analysis are only an "opinion", then maybe that would help newbies somewhat to get 2nd and 3rd opinions, but, like I have been saying, when these claims are implied that they are the experts, world leaders, etc, then why would anybody do that?
Look on Ebay, Auctions, etc, and what do people see? They see all 3 of the big TPA's flips so why would they not trust them and think their opinions are the best and legit?

[ALBB]

Yep,
then when the heat is on..or somebody calls them out..it becomes -

Were pretty comfortable with that sig

It "seems " pretty good

Im" leaning" towards its should be OK

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by irv

It's easy, imo, for some who have been in the hobby of collecting for years and years and maybe even before we had these TPA's, to recognize/know the things that have been said in this thread, but I also know there are many every year that join or rejoin the hobby, like me, who don't know all these things.
If these TPA companies weren't so forthright with their claims and logos and put a disclaimer right on the front page stating their grading analysis are only an "opinion", then maybe that would help newbies somewhat to get 2nd and 3rd opinions, but, like I have been saying, when these claims are implied that they are the experts, world leaders, etc, then why would anybody do that?
Look on Ebay, Auctions, etc, and what do people see? They see all 3 of the big TPA's flips so why would they not trust them and think their opinions are the best and legit?

I have been the hobby since I was 8 in 1985 prior to the TPGs so I have around 30 years experience in the hobby, I sure would hope that helps me make decisions opposed to be here for a year or so. But the premise is the same whether you started in '85 or 2015, learn as much as possible.

I thought all businesses thought they were 'the best', Ive seen it advertised that way all over the world. A business can make any claim like that and an awful lot do...that doesn't make it so though.

As a RN I feel I have seen change a lot in the medical field, its amazing how many patients have no idea what their diagnosis are and they expectations that we just take care of it. Its a very passive approach in my opinion that gives you a scapegoat any time something went wrong. I will preach educate yourself until my last breath, you are just shorting yourself if you don't.

[LOUCARDFAN]

When TPG's promote their services and advertise the astounding prices that their authenticated items have achieved then yes they do hold some skin in the game. Would those items that they promote have received the same prices had they not come with their authentication? We all know the answer. They are saying that their authentication was what gave the buyers of those items the "approval" or peace of mind to spend the type of money that was spent.

I know the TPG's have insurance in case an item is destroyed in their possession but how about being bonded/insured on items that they authenticate over a certain dollar level that way everyone is protected. If one is paying $300 to have an autograph like Ruth authenticated, I don't think a little extra would be an issue to spend to have some true peace of mind in case that item is found to be a fake down the line.

Originally Posted by rainier2004

Id have to disagree here. All four of those professions can held accountant and legally prosecuted and it happens all the time. Fraud and malpractice as well as a pile of other charges can accompany those and do all the time.

And my guess is you do perform some homework on this stuff. If you went in to see the doctor for a cough and s/he put you on an antidepressant you wouldn't educate yourself at all? You need some new breaks and the mechanic charges you 2k you wouldn't go seek more information? If you normally get a 5k income tax return and get a new accountant and all of sudden are getting 18k in return you wouldn't follow that up? We do it all the time.

In the end we are responsible for ourselves, medically, financially and everything else. It used to a right of passage in hobby, otherwise you just would get ripped off until you did. If you don't have time to research your "hobby" spending thousands of dollars then maybe you shouldn't be doing this if you place 100% with someone else's opinion. I thought the educating yourself was part of why we did this, its enjoyable, it starts friendships and is a major reason I am part of the hobby.