Jeter and Today's baseball

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Posted By: James Feagin

I fail to see where Rhys attacked you Jeff. However, there are many sentences where you've been the provoker. Perhaps you meant that by personally insulting Jeter he is insulting you? It should be no surprise the Jeter gets all of this glory heaped upon him, he does play in the media capital of North America. Of course legends, perceived or otherwise, are going to be formed. For the record, given the choice to start my team with Jeter or A-Rod, I go with A-Rod. By the way, what are Jeter's stats in decisive games?

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Jeter is very interesting. Clearly a talented player whose popularity far outweighs his performance. Another player with similar attributes and popularity is Clemente. The main difference between these two players is that Jeter strikes out more and steals more bases.

I enjoy Jeter's play, but root against the Yankees.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I don't believe once in this thread the name Miguel Tejada has come up. He is a shortstop who puts up monster numbers every year- try 150 RBI in a season- and has also played in something like 1070 consecutive games. Now he's really underrated if nobody even mentions him.

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Posted By: leon

After I explained my reasoning for locking the other thread, and saying to carry on in this one, that has to be the most stupid thing you have ever said on this board.....

edited to say maybe I took Tbob's (hi Bob) remark personally...which it wasn't, I don't think....at any rate I couldn't have cared less which thread stayed as long as it was only one....New baseball barely interests me....for reasons discussed before....I still love to play though....

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

Jump for Jeter

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Posted By: Jay

Boof Bonser pitching for the Twinkies. Could this be the next Walter Johnson? Well, at least we won't have the Twinkies to kick around much longer.

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Posted By: Jason L

but you totally lost me on that one.
what are you trying to say? and who is Ellen G?

in no way do I think Jeter (no matter how much I detest him) looks like a British cigarette, so I don't see the resemblance

TBob, even though Leon disagrees, I have to say that this midwestern-raised boy got a little snicker from that remark

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Posted By: chris bland

Boof Bonser is a twinkie jay...

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Posted By: Jay

Thanks Chris--I'm flexible with my taunts

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Posted By: warshawlaw

two frontline starters down the tubes...what's next, locusts, hail, rivers turning to blood...

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Posted By: T206Collector

...offend some people, like me, as much as any racist remarks do. If you think it is funny to use that word loosely in a public forum, that is your prerogative, but it is also my right to call you a bigot.

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Posted By: Mike Mattison

If Jeter wasn't a Yankee he'd be Alan Trammell or Roberto Alomar. A very good player that puts up solid numbers each year.

I'd take Jose Reyes or Michael Young at SS over Jeter.

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Posted By: Jay

Mike-Trammell was a solid ballplayer so it is no disgrace to compare Jeter to him, even though Jeter is a better player who brings much more to the table than Trammell ever did. On the other hand Alomar was a whiney D-Bag who spit at an umpire. He is so far from Jeter that I would not even use their names in the same sentence.
Reyes and Young are both solid ball players and may some day be in Jeter's class but they need to put alot more good years together before we can make that comparison. I like Young alot; Reyes needs to learn the strike zone but brings tremendous excitement to the game.

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Posted By: steve f

.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Reyes is an interesting comparison -- totally different player than Jeter but equally as important to his team and a very disruptive player. As a Mets fan, I'd like to see him at this level for 10 years before comparing him to Jeter. Reyes may also be the MVP of the NL. Funny thing that people don't recall about a young Jeter: he was thought by many in NY at the beginning of his career to be no better than the equal to Rey Ordonez, the Mets then-shortstop.

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

I like how much Jeter is adorned here.

Jeter is an enemy now, my definition to my other word describing
him earlier.

I have heard some say in a sentence ,"i effin eff"....so did that mean he screwed himself ?.....define "EFF".


I use alot of slang, if this is all it takes to offend some, then I know for sure that you do not donate to ST.Judes or send
money to starving children or donate to your local Humane Society.....you know ,the sorta more important things to worry
about.

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Posted By: T206Collector

"Funny thing that people don't recall about a young Jeter: he was thought by many in NY at the beginning of his career to be no better than the equal to Rey Ordonez, the Mets then-shortstop."

That's a little misleading. Rey Rey couldn't hit his way out of a paper bag, but he made lots of dazzling plays at short. But eventually the utter lack of hitting caught up to him and all comparisons were dropped.

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Posted By: ScottIngold

I believe Ellen G is Ellen Degenarass. (sp)

Did i read this right.... Someone called Jeter a fag ? Are some of Seans 5th grade friends here ?

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Posted By: T206Collector

...to engage in an exchange of insults with you. Your responses say more harmful things about you than I could, in good conscience, write.

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Posted By: Bob

And if you stop and think about the fact that I noticed the Twins thread was locked and didn't scroll up and see your reasoning on a different thread, maybe you beat me out for stupidest comment on the board, at least the most arrogant.
And pardon me if I took it personally too...

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Agreed that Ordonez couldn't hold a candle to Jeter. But at the beginning of their careers-which began roughly at the same time-it was a legitimate question as to which was better. Hard to believe now.

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Posted By: Bob

" I did kill another thread by a "less than everyday participant"

You won't have to worry about any more comments from a "less than everyday participant," I'm out of here.

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Posted By: leon

It wasn't your thread I deleted. I wouldn't have done that without emailing you first. I always email folks I know if there is an issue. I hope you don't leave but if you want to then that's your call. As I tell everyone that leaves....please feel free to come back whenever you want to. Sorry you took it so personally.

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Posted By: PC

Looks like the Twins are going to delete themselves from the post-season (down 2-0 to the As), so maybe that other OT thread could be deleted at this point?

Twins theads get locked ... wahhhhh
Yankees threads don't ..... wahhhhh
If Jeter gets the MVP .... wahhhhh
If Mauer doesn't .... wahhhh
Big market teams .... wahhhh
If Twins get swept .... wahhhh

"There's no crying in baseball."

edited to add: White Sox ... wahhhh

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Posted By: barrysloate

Who would have thought that in a an innocuous thread about the merits of Derek Jeter all hell would break loose? There are at least three different personal attacks going on here at the same time.

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Posted By: chris bland

I think thats why non-card related threads are kept at a minimum Barry - looks like its a good idea too...

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Posted By: barrysloate

Here's something to change the subject- Dodgers had runners on first and second with no outs and the next batter hit a single to Shawn Green. Green threw to the plate and got both runners on simultaneous tags- on one throw. You see that about once a decade!

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Posted By: T206Collector

...at work pointed out that the double tag at home was featured in the movie Major League.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I remember the Yankees doing it in the 1980's and I'm pretty sure one of the two runners tagged out was Dale Berra. Anyone else remember that?

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

This has degenerated into a real quagmire here, huh?
Lots of formerly rational people.....

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Posted By: Kevin Cummings

Barry:

Now look what you've gone and done - you've given all the Jeter bashers ammunition. Derek Jeter has never thrown out or tagged out two players on one play in a playoff game.

Of course, there is a game tonight.....

Kevin

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Barry:

Dale Berra and Bobby Meacham, I believe. One of the low points.

-Al

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Posted By: Jason L

That was Carlton Fisk of the White Sox that did the tagging, if I am not mistaken...yes?

I will like Derek Jeter as soon as he nails two runners at the plate on the same play, provided that he also catches his own throw and does the tagging...only then, will I become a Jeter fan.

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Posted By: Anonymous

"Dale Berra and Bobby Meachum," said Randolph between innings on ESPN.

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Posted By: runscott

Hey Tom, and one formerly irrational person. I fell on my head a few months ago and haven't been able to have a decent coherent fight since...sad, I know. Even Jay won't yell at me anymore

Barry - Tejada isn't mentioned because he's a 'roid user....didn't you read the Clemens thread?

And Leon, I didn't know you liked to play baseball - how does one get into that again at your age? ...or my even older age? I was thinking about getting in an almost-50 league, but wouldn't know how to begin getting warmed up.

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Posted By: barrysloate

That's right, he was accused. Soon there won't be anyone left except the skinny guys. It was Fisk who made the two tags, and Berra and Meachum sounds right. Didn't hear Randolph but he was probably playing then and saw it.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

From NYFans.com:

On August 4, 1985, Bobby Meacham was involved in one of the strangest plays in Yankee history when Meacham and Dale Berra were both tagged out at home plate by Carlton Fisk on the same play.

It went something like this: Dale Berra was on 1st and Meacham on 2nd, Rickey Henderson blasted a hanging curve into the gap in left center. Meacham, however, was convinced that Chisox centerfielder Luis Salazar would catch the ball, so Meacham stayed put on 2nd so he could tag up and go to 3rd upon Salazar’s miraculous catch.

Berra, however, held no such convictions, and he began to run full speed toward the stationary Meacham. Bobby saw Dale running toward him and panicked. He got his feet twisted and fell to the ground. He got up and both men reached 3rd at about the same time, Berra a whisker behind Meacham.

Gene Michael, the 3rd base coach, threw his hands up in confusion, but both runners sped toward home. Fisk took the relay throw from Ozzie Guillen (Yes, THAT Ozzie Guillen) and tagged them both—boom. boom. out. out.

Yankee manager Billy Martin growled “I’ve never seen a play like that in grammar school, let alone the Major Leagues.”

Willie Randolph was indeed the Yankee second baseman in 1985.

-Al

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Posted By: Jason

Jeter could not hold Ozzie Smith's jockstrap at short. Jeter is media hyped and overrated alot. I would not even say he is in the top 30 best big leaguers today. Ozzie was the best fielding SS in history bar none! There was none even close to him. Whoever says there was is smoking meth. He was not A good hitter but his fielding far surpassed his hitting. Jeter has been lucky enough to be on 4 WS Championship teams and made a few nice plays, but he is not HOF material yet.

Jason

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Posted By: Jay

Jason--I already told you that Derek Jeter is the second best shortstop in baseball history. How can he not be HOF worthy? Also, my guess is that Jeter would prefer not to hold Ozzie Smith's jock strap which addresses both your statement and some other uninformed statement about Jeter's sexual preferences. BTW, granted that Ozzie Smith was a great fielder and a really neat back flipper but I hardly think that he was that much better than Omar Vizquel with a glove. In fact, Vizquel's lifetime fielding percentage is .984 and Ozzie's is .978 and they both covered alot of ground. Vizquel also outhits Ozzie by 14 points.

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Posted By: Ricky Y

Wow its amusing and sometimes scary to see (as a newbie) how these posting morph into different tangents..but I digress...

As for original topic on hand...I have gained a lot of admiration and respect for Derek Jeter as years have gone by... setting aside my disdain for Steinbrenner and ignoring the financial advantage the Yankees have over most everyone to acquire and develop players, I marvel at his consistency and the manner in how he conducts himself on the field and the distractions that come with playing in New York. It takes a special player to succeed in New York, you have to embrace the limelight and handle the pressure. When you think of the Yankees in the last 10 years or so...I automatically associate his name at the top of the list.

I wouldn't be suprised to see his statue enshrined in center field after his retirement.

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Posted By: gerard

JETER is the 21st century Mantle, Ruth, enjoy watching him play!

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Let’s look at the real numbers for Smith and Jeter. Career as hitters, Jeter is far better than Smith, bearing in mind that Jeter has had 6,970 at bats in 12 years while Smith had 9,396 at bats in 19 years.

YRSHITSBAOBP
192460 .262 .337
122150.318.388

Jeter’s BA is 56 points higher than Smith’s; his on base percentage is 52 points higher. He reaches base far more often than Smith did, so much so that Jeter has already scored 20 more runs than Smith (1,277 vs. 1,257) in 2/3 of the at bats. Jeter is a far better hitter and a far better run scorer than Smith ever was.

Does Jeter’s edge in hitting evaporate with Smith’s purported edge in fielding so that Smith emerges as the far superior player? I think not. Their pertinent fielding stats at short through their careers (excluding games they didn’t play SS, Smith played 2511 games, Jeter played 1670 games):

NAME G PO A E DP FP lgFP
SMITH2511 4249 8375 281 1590 .978 .966
JETER1670 2533 4277 175 884 .975 .972

1670/2511 = 66.5%. Jeter has played 66.5% of the games Smith played. If we multiply Smith’s raw totals by .665 to equalize the number of games they played we get the following:

PO A E DP
282655691871057

Jeter’s numbers in the same categories:

PO A E DP
2533 4277 175 884

Bear in mind that assists and double plays are partially dependent on the skills of other players on their teams, including the types of pitchers they are behind. Ozzie played behind a lot of ground ball pitchers, who were successful partially because the Cardinals fielded teams that were superior defensively. Jeter has played behind a lot of strikeout and fly ball pitchers. Jeter has also played with some lead-handed second basemen (Alfonso Soriano comes to mind).

Is Smith a better fielder? Absolutely. Is he so much better a fielder that he cancels out Jeter’s superior hitting skills? I could see that argument being made. But was Smith so great a fielder that he overwhelmingly stands head and shoulders above Jeter? No way. Not even close. If anything, I’d say at this point that Jeter and Smith are about equal in value. If Smith is a HOFer, so is Jeter.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Wow - what happened in this thread?

Pretend we're all in a round room - now everyone find a corner and take a timeout...

By the way JETER SUCKS!!! Just kidding. He's without a doubt a fantastic player that has been fortunate to have played on Yankee teams where the ownership feels that they will go to all lengths to win by signing lots of above average (ok, great) players and then going for all the marbles every year. Jeter happens to be one of a supporting cast of really good players. That's not to detract from his accomplishments because he will be the Yankees leader in many different categories by the time he retires (assuming that he plays that long and can endure).

I sure wish the management/ownership for my favorite team had the same deep pockets and philosophy (just win baby - ok, plagerised from Al Davis) that the Yankees have.

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Posted By: barrysloate

When Jeter is at bat or in the field, take a look at his eyes. He has the burning passion of a winner. He has the body language of a winner. He will always be a winner and he is the greatest shortstop the Yankees ever had. Those who think he is overrated just don't like the Yankees.

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Posted By: joe brennan

I can't even comprehend what I am seeing from this board. A thread about modern basball has turned into this garbage? Opinions are fine, and everyone's got one. But attacks and name calling and berating. For what? And to think we banned Sean for being immature. I'll sit back and think about the adults on this board. I think you should stick to opinions about cards. Seems like the only way everyone can remain mature. Joe

People said it was a million dollar wound. But the government must keep that money, cause I ain't never seen a penny of it.

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Posted By: Patrick McHugh

Cal Ripken JR. In 2302 games at shortstop his fielding percentage was.979 - better than Smith or Jeter. A.L. ROY, 2 Time MVP, 2 Time all-star game MVP, Voted to the MLB All century team, this man was the best ss ever.

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Posted By: Chris Counts

If you check out just about any modern major league baseball team forum (or football, basketball, etc ...), they all routinely devolve into mudslinging matches. It's amazing how much more personally people take a debate when the honor of their favorite team or player is at stake. Could anybody imagine a debate over t206 backs ever getting this ugly? Or somebody calling a collector a "fag" for prefering a Sweet Caporal to a Polar Bear? Actually, I can't imagine calling anybody a "fag" for any reason, but apparently some people in this world have run out of more intelligent words to use in their vocabularies. By the way, I hate the Yankees more than any team in sports history, but if I was putting together a team, he'd be my first pick. Stats tell only part of the story. Jeter is a stone cold winner. He'll have a plaque on the wall at Yankee Stadium one day, right next to the Babe ...

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

I think the fag comment was a joke. I didn't write it but I don't think it was meant as a personal attack against Jeter or his fans.

Barry - you've got that right - Jeter is the greatest shortstop the Yankees have ever had, period. He is a winner, thank goodness he was drafted by the Yankees instead of some lowly team where he'd probably still be good but he'd be suffering... Just out of curiosity do you think Jeter would have made a winner out of the Seattle Mariners?

What about them A's???

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Posted By: jay behrens

Jay, so youa re telling us that the the greatest defensive players at their position have no business being in the HOF and that the HOF is soley reserved for the greatest hitters and pitchers, regardless how much damage they do to their team defensively? If one dimesional players like Killebrew and Kiner can get into the HOF, then why can't defensive wizards like Ozzie, Maz and Brooks?

I thought the HOF was supposed to be for the greatest players, and to me, this means offense and defense.

FP is pretty meaningless as I pointed out in the HOF thread, but I'll do it again. Omar has a little over 13k fielding chances in 18 seasons. Ozzie had almost 15k chances in 19 years. Somehow, I don't think Omar is getting to 2k ball next season, thus proving that Ozzie had much better range. This means that Ozzie gets to more balls. Some of these balls he gets to, he gets errors for. These balls are base hits if Omar is playing SS. I'll take Ozzie knocking down a ball and getting an error over Omar not getting to it all and having base hit go through and runners advances a few bases.

Ryan, it had everthing to with Leon asking for no OT posts for awhile and this threat got started the next day. I know I start OT threads, but I also respect requests that Leon makes. I'm a supposed trouble maker, so if I can honor simple requests from Leon, I don't see why other supposed good citizens can't do likewise.

The number of rings does not make a player great. Or maybe Ernie Banks is just another bum. Winning rings takes a team. There is not a single player that can win a ring by himself, otherwise the Giants would have wona few titles when Bonds was posting monster numbers.

No one here is saying Jeter sucks. If they are, then I agree, they are idiots. The point is the he is vastly overrated and overhyped. Would I love to see him on the Twins? Sure, but he wouldn't be the second coming of whomever if he didn't play for the Yankees.

Gerard, passing whatever you are smoking.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Now that you mention it, Sweet Caporal does sound a lot less manly than Polar Bear.

It is Piedmont backs that T-Rex's new set has, right. That should be ok too.

I never thought of the t206 back fag factor before. I don't even know all of the backs, but El Principe de Gales don't sound too straight.