You be the judge

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Posted By: Judge Dred

The picture below shows (2) Willis T206 cards that were graded by two different companies. Tell me what grade you would assign the cards. If you want to include a commentary that's fine. Just call the cards Left and Right.

The card backs are in the post below.

Grading is subjective and I'd like to see how much variance people have in their subjectivity.

Neither card is creased. The card on the right has slightly more brilliance in color and crispness of the image.

I'll post the cards shown in their respective holders later.

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Posted By: Judge Dred

Thank you for participating.

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Posted By: steve k

Card on Left: VG
Card on Right: VG - EX

From the implication of your post, I have a feeling that the card on the left graded higher, but it shouldn't have.

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Posted By: Bill Cornell

I guess 40 (left), 30 (right) for no good reason. The card on the right has a whammy.

Bill

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

but think they probably got the same grade (bkgnbd not as even on r, color not as good on left, both have problem corners). I just am a sucker for color and resolution.

So I can lose, without assigning a grade, isn't that neat?

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Posted By: Joe_G.

My opinion:

Left, PSA 3 VG
Right, SGC 60 EX or even SGC 70 Ex+

Now if I were to guess the upset, I'd say:

Left, PSA 4 VG/EX
Right, SGC 50 VG/EX

ie same grade

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Posted By: Elliot

Left---4

Right---2 chipping, print defect....an ugly card

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Posted By: Mike Ward

Left is a 4 and Right is 3, possibly a 2. Chipping does it despite the brilliance and overall better looking card.

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Posted By: david

just got this grade back from sgc. Graded good for multiple severe creases and rounded corners. according to sgc the severe creases which break the cardboard on the front and back of the card are clearly visible at arms length. when i dropped the card off at the office there was not a single crease that i would term severe. has anyone ever pleaded their case about a grade and had it changed

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Posted By: Bob S

Card on the left looks like it's in a PSA holder so I'll
say PSA 2.
Card on the right- Trimmed or PRO 8.5

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Posted By: MW

Card on left = VG to VG/EX
Card on right = looks like it has been tampered with.

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Posted By: dan mckee

In 1970: left is EX, right is EX+
today: left is vg, right is vg

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Posted By: petecld

Dan,

You're right. Sniff, sniff. I miss the good ol' days.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Although I usually prefer the card with the sharper image, the maroon/burgandy background looks quite good. I would select either of these on price alone. A tradeoff of worse corner wear for worse edge wear will remain too subjective to call, until grading is better defined.

Come on Gil, call the grades! I won't put a grading company's number to it, but if these cards are unmodified they both are vg/ex in my book. With a toss the coin preference.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Left = PSA 4

Right = SGC 30, Good, chipping, printer mark and what appears to be 2 spots of paper loss on bottom right.

As far as the Matty, I have sent in cards for review with SGC sometimes saw my way some they didn't. As far as multiple creases or surface wrinkles, I don't think they will assign anything over 30, Good. I also have sent in some nice one with Multiple crease but none higher than a 30.

Lee

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Posted By: runscott

We all realize the limitations of "technical grading". I personally would rather have the card on the right, assuming it hasn't been trimmed across the top.

But it brings up an interesting question - would you rather have an EXMT card with poor registration and washed-out colors, or a VG card with fantastic surface, colors and registration, but with corner wear and a few spider wrinkles that kill the technial grade?

I brought this question up previously using SGC40 black cap Matty's and got almost no reponse - surely you can't all be plastic speculators? (see, Joe P, we agree on things at times)

edited to make the question simpler and to add the following:

(The above assumes you plan to keep the card, not sell it)

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Posted By: Anonymous

left is VG+, right is EX-. This assumes no trim or alteration. Even though the grades are similar, I would greatly prefer the one on the right due to its vibrant appearance and color. Corners be damned. I'm sure you're going to tell us that the one on the left was professionally graded higher.

Back in the 70s they would have called them both VG-EX.
And I would have paid $10 each.

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Posted By: Chris

I would personally call them both VG-EX based on grades I have seen from the mail grading companies. I think the one on the right has better eyeappeal IMO.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

IMHO your question deserves its own thread, but to offer a quick response, I will prefer the VG card described because focus, and color are more important to me than veining and corner wear.

Gil

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Posted By: JimB

I would give the card on the left a vg PSA 3
Card on the right (assuming it is not trimmed) a vg/ex PSA 4. It is ex by all appearances except the chipping which I think knocks it down a grade.
Jim

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Posted By: David Vargha

They are both VG-EX (4).

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Brian Harper

Left - 3
Right - 4

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Posted By: Anonymous

psa left 3 right 5...beckett vintage left 2 right 3...sgc/gai left 4 right 5 pro left 5 right 7....adamsdad left 7 right 10

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Posted By: Peter Thomas

PSA 3, Pro 7 (trimmed)

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Check out the button on the "S" they are in different positions. I also have 2 different with buttons in different positions. The color does not appear shifted since his hair is in the same place on both.

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Posted By: runscott

The ink used to print the word "Pittsburg" was probably shifted slightly.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

I dont think theres any other card in the t206 set that has more color variance than Vic Willis' portrait card.You could see 10 of them side by side and have 10 different colors/looks

The only other one ive seen equal to it is Fiene portrait

I know all t206s have some color variance but these 2 really stand out

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Both coins and stamps are collected like that. I have seen a set of many variations of the same date and mintmark large cent, 1793-1820 or so. The variations there were the different dies which were used (all hand tooled, therefore all slightly different).

More similar to cards tho was a collection of the color variations of a single stamp. The one I saw had less than a dozen different hues.

I wonder if I am alone here, or if anyone else finds this type of variation collecting interesting.

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Posted By: David Vargha

What's the answer?

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: runscott

I agree completely that the Willis background color fluctuates as much as any. The red portraits that end up being orange portraits are also very interesting - if I could afford to collect the entire t206 set I would certainly add these color variations as my set approached completion.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Left: nice plum bg. corners and surface and registration (I'll take your word for no creases) are vg to vg-ex quality. If someone knows their colors, I could seen them knocking it down a grade for lack of full color.

Right: Much crisper image, full red color. Much better corners. I'd say SGC ex, maybe ex+ on a good day, again taking your word on creases. Now, if GAI grades it, we're talking ex+ to ex/mt; they overgrade.

BTW: I really like the pink variation...

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Posted By: Judge Dred

I'll be honest with you, I believe the left card was overgraded, it looks more like a "3" to me. I'll give the right card a "4" (a "5" on a good day). Yes there is chipping along the border and yes the top right corner is a little dinged but the overall appearance (to me) is much more appealing. This is one reason that I would have a hard time buying a card sight unseen "just" because it was graded by a "reputable" grading monkey (I hope I didn't insult any monkeys by that last comment).

There was mention of the right card being trimmed. I thought about this also but "how could that possibly happen" when a reputable grading service determined it was a "4".

To those that participated, Thank You and without further adieu,

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Posted By: Julie

......

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Posted By: David Vargha

I'll take either one. I'm a giving kind of guy.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Arrggghh! Have we come up with another excuse to pay extra for a common card?

Gil

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I collect them. It is just another way to do the Monster. And need I even point out that if the variation is rare, it isn't a common??

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Posted By: runscott

Just stick with your plain red background version. Me, if I had the money I'd have a red background Cobb with perfect registration, and another where the blue is off just enough to where he appears to be looking in a different direction. And I'd have orange background versions of all the red-background portraits...and I'd pay a little extra to get them. But that's just me (not a Miller Lite drinker).

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

And all this points out to me is that I can "discover" new things which I want faster than I can reduce my existing wantlist. So I am constantly shuffling my priorities. But this is a good thing.

Because, when money finally becomes available, there is sufficient bulk on the wantlist that although each item may not be readilly available, Im sure to find one of them. I currently hope to be able to find a Maple Crispette Bottomley next time I have some budget. I need that to complete a small grouping of RBI achievements - I think he had 12 in a game in 1924, if I remember right. But if I can start a t206 color variation set, that would be good too. Or ....

I guess that is just like many of us.

And yes, when I ask for a light, I mean a match.

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Posted By: T206Collector

I have mentioned this before, but I once placed all of my T206 Cards in ROY G BIV order and then laid them out as a sort of rainbow on my desk. I thought they presented really interestingly that way....

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Posted By: runscott

I was collecting t206 portraits when I discovered an orange-background Tinker. Really diverted me. Then a mauve Willis, etc. Still looking for a beige background Wagner

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

I sit here saying to myself "self: you are waay out of your league here". I have a few t206s because they fit other things I was doing, but I never seriously considered the set, well because it is monstrous, and I figured that I should pay attention to the OJs first.

I am making some progress in understanding the n172s, but I have a ways to go. By this I mean that I am begining to get a handle on the identification of the specific areas of n172 consideration which I do not have a clue about.

Although starting a grouping of the color variations of a Willis or a Fiene is an attractive option, I am totally lacking in knowledge regarding the set. This sounds much like the typical rube walking into a poker game, and asking "does a flush beat a straight, or is it the other way around?"

Do you have any suggestions regarding how to proceed, other than "bring lots of money"?

I am sure (no, I'm not) that it will come to me as soon as I press the submit button on this post, but right now I am wondering what a ROY G BIV format is.

Gilbert

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Does the SCD graded card have paper loss in the lower right or are they just printer spots?

Scott Forrest had a Willis that was in between the 2 colors that I have, I regret not bidding higher on the card.

If you want color variations buy some ofthe T206s that were glued and the glued seeped thru to the front and changed the color.

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Posted By: John/z28jd

ROY G BIV is an acronym for the colors in a visible spectrum of light.Its an easy way to remember the colors in order Red,Orange,Yellow,Green,Blue,Indigo,and Violet

Technically its an outdated method as Indigo isnt anymore considered a color in the spectrum,its just the spot where blue and purple[violet] meet and blend into each other

So go get some HOF T206 portraits and line them up all nice in that order and youll see what he meant
3Fingers-red
Chance-orange
Lajoie-yellow
Cobb-green
Speaker-blue [scott forrest will make this one for you]
willis-indigo,im sure you can find one
willis-violet,im sure you can find one

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

John, Im glad that you explained ROYGBIV. I would still be wondering. Indigo got thrown out of the spectrum!! I did not get that news. I gotta wonder who's job it is to make that level of a decision. Whew. Is there now a opening? How about Mauve, Taupe or Cilantro?

But really, I may not be ready to get ahold of a bunch of t206 HOFers just yet, but I will look out for those off color issues and see if I can convince dealers how undesireable they are (while offering to take them off of their hands).

Thanks,
Gil