Another high end sticker -- "PC"??

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Yes but I imagine it would have been one of your favorites without the stickers as well.

[Peter_Spaeth]

As the great lyric from Gypsy goes,
You gotta get a gimmick, if you want to get ahead.

Jeff has always had very nice cards that are high end for the grade. I have some. I am surprised he went this direction, but perhaps after the show he will explain his thinking.

[Buythatcard]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

I got a sneak peak at the proposed new PSA flip...

Attachment 324689

[deeg23]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Yes but I imagine it would have been one of your favorites without the stickers as well.

True 🙂 but I just don’t see the point in complaining about the stickers.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by deeg23

True �� but I just don’t see the point in complaining about the stickers.

Because the stickers make the entire package of the graded card look tacky and stupid. I hate it when dealers put price stickers on the slabs that leave a residue when I take them off. If the sticker comes off easily then I don't care at all.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by glynparson

Then why the we aren’t professionals disclaimer and why not offer the service to the public? It’s a gimmic in my honest opinion and have buyers become so lazy they can’t make any determinations on their own anymore? I think the service may have value if it were done independently by a third party but honestly lacks impartiality when doing it to your own cards.

I asked Jeff about this and he said they're using the stickers to encourage PSA to add a positive qualifier for elite centering. It sounds like a good idea to me. It did not sound like they're trying to start a new service or business like those purple stickers.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

They want a positive qualifier for the most readily observable visual characteristic of a card...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

They want a positive qualifier for the most readily observable visual characteristic of a card...

PSA is not going to do subgrades like Beckett, in my opinion. Why does Jeff need to sticker his own cards if he wants to encourage PSA to make a change, he could simply communicate with them? If the goal is to show they sell for more, without a control (same card, no sticker), and a relatively low volume of cards, I don't think it would prove anything.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Well PSA might actually get interested now that I come to think of it, as it would be yet another opportunity for regrading. Half Points, Slab Changes etc have all been big money makers for PSA.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Well PSA might actually get interested now that I come to think of it, as it would be yet another opportunity for regrading. Half Points, Slab Changes etc have all been big money makers for PSA.

I can see it now. 8E (for ELITE centering). LOL.

[Throttlesteer]

Maybe I'm just a little slow. But it seems centering is probably the easiest characteristic to determine with a grade. No magnification is necessary. Do I need a sticker to tell me a card has great centering? Nope. I just don't find it helpful at all. I get that centering seems to have overtaken corners as what's most important for the hobby. But the sticker isnt telling me something I cant already see with my own two eyes.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

PSA is not going to do subgrades like Beckett, in my opinion. Why does Jeff need to sticker his own cards if he wants to encourage PSA to make a change, he could simply communicate with them? If the goal is to show they sell for more, without a control (same card, no sticker), and a relatively low volume of cards, I don't think it would prove anything.

If the stickers get a positive reaction st a show that PSA is set up at it could certainly help their case. As someone who primarily collects centiered cards I am in favor of this idea. I dont need a sticker or qualifier to tell me a card is centered. But it is always a little nerve racking sending a card to auction that I paid a big premium for because of centering. Adding the centering qualifier could help set a more standard premium.

And I think it would be an 8C, not an 8E.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

If the stickers get a positive reaction st a show that PSA is set up at it could certainly help their case. As someone who primarily collects centiered cards I am in favor of this idea. I dont need a sticker or qualifier to tell me a card is centered. But it is always a little nerve racking sending a card to auction that I paid a big premium for because of centering. Adding the centering qualifier could help set a more standard premium.

And I think it would be an 8C, not an 8E.

So what's your cutoff for the "C"? And what do they use to measure it? Do you want every stupid modern 10 to have a C after it, or only cards before a certain year? Etc.

[mechanicalman]

I’ve bought many cards from Jeff and Brady over the years. I’ve paid a strong premium for every single one, but every price was well worth it for the quality. These two guys have been buying and selling cards that look outstanding for the grade for years, and it’s heavily influenced my collecting habits. Is their PC sticker a “gimmick” designed to command higher prices? Is it motivated by greed? No and no. Neither of these dudes are paying their mortgage from sales of baseball cards. They are not trying to squeeze an extra 5% profit with these stickers.

As Jesse has articulated, my sense is they are simply trying to bring attention to the fact that centered cards are commanding huge premiums in the market place, and perhaps it would benefit the TPGs to take notice and adjust their grading policies to keep up with the reality in the marketplace. Do I personally like any stickers on my holders? No, I do not. I crave simplicity and cleanliness. But I do support the bigger idea of the TPGs recognizing true eye appeal more than they currently do.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I don't understand the logic that the grading companies need to change because centered cards are realizing a premium. The grade is the grade.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I don't understand the logic that the grading companies need to change because centered cards are realizing a premium. The grade is the grade.

I don't follow it either. The centering is patently obvious from a scan, or personal inspection. And Beckett already gives subgrades for centering, at least for BGS grades, does anyone really care?

[swarmee]

This is one major reason PSA already went to half-grades: to recognize elite centering representative of higher grades. This sticker is gaudy, gimmicky, and a waste of time.
Claiming they want PSA to better notate centered cards makes me think they don't already understand PSA does that. I don't like any of the add-on stickers, FWIW.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

This is one major reason PSA already went to half-grades: to recognize elite centering representative of higher grades. This sticker is gaudy, gimmicky, and a waste of time.
Claiming they want PSA to better notate centered cards makes me think they don't already understand PSA does that. I don't like any of the add-on stickers, FWIW.

One man's elite centering is another man's eyesore. There are guys here who would have a breakdown if you put a 53 47 card in their collection haha. But while PSA grades can include a range of centering, again, anyone can see with their own eyes what the centering is. I don't think we need a sticker or qualifier or subgrade or whatever.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

I’ve bought many cards from Jeff and Brady over the years. I’ve paid a strong premium for every single one, but every price was well worth it for the quality. These two guys have been buying and selling cards that look outstanding for the grade for years, and it’s heavily influenced my collecting habits. Is their PC sticker a “gimmick” designed to command higher prices? Is it motivated by greed? No and no. Neither of these dudes are paying their mortgage from sales of baseball cards. They are not trying to squeeze an extra 5% profit with these stickers.

As Jesse has articulated, my sense is they are simply trying to bring attention to the fact that centered cards are commanding huge premiums in the market place, and perhaps it would benefit the TPGs to take notice and adjust their grading policies to keep up with the reality in the marketplace. Do I personally like any stickers on my holders? No, I do not. I crave simplicity and cleanliness. But I do support the bigger idea of the TPGs recognizing true eye appeal more than they currently do.

So the way to call attention to the huge prices centered cards command is to put a sticker on them and then charge a huge price? Something about that doesn't sit right.

[mechanicalman]

My bad. You guys are right. The current grading protocols represent the pinnacle of perfection, and they should not be questioned.

If anything, from a purely personal standpoint, if positive qualifiers existed, there might be less incredulity expressed when someone pays the same price for a perfectly centered 4 as they would for a crappy 6.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

My bad. You guys are right. The current grading protocols represent the pinnacle of perfection, and they should not be questioned.

If anything, from a purely personal standpoint, if positive qualifiers existed, there might be less incredulity expressed when someone pays the same price for a perfectly centered 4 as they would for a crappy 6.

It seems to me the market can take care of itself, without additional input from TPGs. If people want to charge and pay premiums for centered cards, they have been doing so and can continue.

Sam would you only put the C on a 50 50 card? 51 49? Where do you draw the line? Vintage only or all cards?

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So the way to call attention to the huge prices centered cards command is to put a sticker on them and then charge a huge price? Something about that doesn't sit right.

Collectors like myself and Sam are already paying big premium for centered cards. That won't change with or without the PC sticker. But these stickers or a positive psa qualifier might bring in bigger bids and offers from those who might not ordinarily make them. The qualifier could also bring in the same from the registry guys if bonus points are awarded.

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So the way to call attention to the huge prices centered cards command is to put a sticker on them and then charge a huge price? Something about that doesn't sit right.

Yeah, circular arguments never sit right.

The stickers don’t command the higher price. Consumers are already paying the high price for premium centering. Perhaps there should be recognition of the factors driving huge swings in price for the same grade. I’m not defending the stickers, as I don’t care for them, but I believe there’s merit in the recognition of eye appeal.

And yes, I know Beckett has/had centering grades. But how many vintage collectors care about BVG?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Collectors like myself and Sam are already paying big premium for centered cards. That won't change with or without the PC sticker. But these stickers or a positive psa qualifier might bring in bigger bids and offers from those who might not ordinarily make them. The qualifier could also bring in the same from the registry guys if bonus points are awarded.

Again, the question I put to you before: what's your cutoff for the C, how do you propose measuring it, and does it apply to all cards or just before a certain year?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

Yeah, circular arguments never sit right.

The stickers don’t command the higher price. Consumers are already paying the high price for premium centering. Perhaps there should be recognition of the factors driving huge swings in price for the same grade. I’m not defending the stickers, as I don’t care for them, but I believe there’s merit in the recognition of eye appeal.

And yes, I know Beckett has/had centering grades. But how many vintage collectors care about BVG?

But it IS recognized, that's the piece I am missing. If it's already happening, and to a point I will also pay more for better centering though I am less fanatical than some, why do we need to change anything?

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

And yes, I know Beckett has/had centering grades. But how many vintage collectors care about BVG?

If it was that important, wouldn't people be crossing over their cards to BVG to take advantage of that 9.5 or 10 centering subgrade? Well, guess not, because BVG removed subgrades 5 years ago and has not brought them back.
Nobody is arguing that people aren't paying more for highly centered cards. You're arguing a straw man against yourself. Anyone who's been collecting graded vintage for more than 6 months knows that highly centered examples sell for more. You don't need to convince anybody.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

If it was that important, wouldn't people be crossing over their cards to BVG to take advantage of that 9.5 or 10 centering subgrade? Well, guess not, because BVG removed subgrades 5 years ago and has not brought them back.
Nobody is arguing that people aren't paying more for highly centered cards. You're arguing a straw man against yourself. Anyone who's been collecting graded vintage for more than 6 months knows that highly centered examples sell for more. You don't need to convince anybody.

They may need to convince themselves if they are requiring external validation? I don't mean that pejoratively, I just don't understand the point really.

[mechanicalman]

[QUOTE=Peter_Spaeth;1800898]Again, the question I put to you before: what's your cutoff for the C, how do you propose measuring it, and does it apply to all cards or just before a certain year?[/QUOTE

Peter, this is not my thing, so I haven’t thought too much about it, but it’s cetainly not as hard as you think it is.

In fact, it wouldn’t be too difficult at all to set a scientific standard.

To me, I’d apply the qualifier to any card with the appearance of 50/50. Now, a T206 with 47/53 might actually appear to average eyes as 50/50. You could conduct some qualitative testing to ascertain what level of measurable centering falls within the parameters of appearing 50/50.

So it could be done with less subjectivity than you think.

All that said, qualifier or not, I’ll continue to pay strong for centered cards and some folks will continue to question those purchases. Not a big deal.

[Peter_Spaeth]

[QUOTE=mechanicalman;1800908]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Again, the question I put to you before: what's your cutoff for the C, how do you propose measuring it, and does it apply to all cards or just before a certain year?[/QUOTE

Peter, this is not my thing, so I haven’t thought too much about it, but it’s cetainly not as hard as you think it is.

In fact, it wouldn’t be too difficult at all to set a scientific standard.

To me, I’d apply the qualifier to any card with the appearance of 50/50. Now, a T206 with 47/53 might actually appear to average eyes as 50/50. You could conduct some qualitative testing to ascertain what level of measurable centering falls within the parameters of appearing 50/50.

So it could be done with less subjectivity than you think.

All that said, qualifier or not, I’ll continue to pay strong for centered cards and some folks will continue to question those purchases. Not a big deal.

They would still question it with a formal qualifier, IMO. And who cares if they do?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

The qualifier could also bring in the same from the registry guys if bonus points are awarded.

A strong point.

[mechanicalman]

[QUOTE=Peter_Spaeth;1800909]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

They would still question it with a formal qualifier, IMO. And who cares if they do?

Peter, let’s say you’re willing to part with your Beethoven RC Super Refractor PSA 8, which is a pop 2. However, the other dude who owns the other 8 puts his up for sale in the same auction. Yours, however, is better centered. Would you feel good relying on the eye test to ensure you get the higher price? Sure. But would you feel BETTER if there was a designation deeming yours slightly better? I bet you would.

[Peter_Spaeth]

[QUOTE=mechanicalman;1800914]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Peter, let’s say you’re willing to part with your Beethoven RC Super Refractor PSA 8, which is a pop 2. However, the other dude who owns the other 8 puts his up for sale in the same auction. Yours, however, is better centered. Would you feel good relying on the eye test to ensure you get the higher price? Sure. But would you feel BETTER if there was a designation deeming yours slightly better? I bet you would.

I would hope the auction house would not put both in the same auction, but if they did, then if they had a large scan and they emphasized the centering in the description (just in case anyone somehow missed it), I would be secure. Let's not forget a seller is always free to call attention to a card's features beyond the number grade.

[ruth_rookie]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I don't understand the logic that the grading companies need to change because centered cards are realizing a premium. The grade is the grade.

This.

And I really don’t want a “positive qualifier” on my flip any more than I want a negative qualifier, which is why I always check the no-qualifier box on my submissions. The grade is the grade. Just give me mine and let’s all move on to the next buy, sell, or trade.

With that said, we all agree that the grading process is far from perfect, and I applaud these guys for trying to improve it.

[mechanicalman]

[QUOTE=Peter_Spaeth;1800917]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

I would hope the auction house would not put both in the same auction, but if they did, then if they had a large scan and they emphasized the centering in the description (just in case anyone somehow missed it), I would be secure. Let's not forget a seller is always free to call attention to a card's features beyond the number grade.

You didn’t answer my question directly, so I’ll try again, but with a more likely premise.

The other Beethoven 8 sold 2 months ago, but was borderline o/c. It went for $2k. Now yours is up for auction with a postive qualifier. Does the qualifier make you feel BETTER or not about the probability of yours selling for north of $2?

[Peter_Spaeth]

[QUOTE=mechanicalman;1800923]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You didn’t answer my question directly, so I’ll try again, but with a more likely premise.

The other Beethoven 8 sold 2 months ago, but was borderline o/c. It went for $2k. Now yours is up for auction with a postive qualifier. Does the qualifier make you feel BETTER or not about the probability of yours selling for north of $2?

Honestly, no, because the buyers can see that it's better centered and the AH can tell them that. I don't think the qualifier which just states the obvious adds anything. Would you add a sticker to a Picasso being sold that said, good eye appeal?

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

I’ve bought many cards from Jeff and Brady over the years. I’ve paid a strong premium for every single one, but every price was well worth it for the quality. These two guys have been buying and selling cards that look outstanding for the grade for years, and it’s heavily influenced my collecting habits. Is their PC sticker a “gimmick” designed to command higher prices? Is it motivated by greed? No and no. Neither of these dudes are paying their mortgage from sales of baseball cards. They are not trying to squeeze an extra 5% profit with these stickers.

As Jesse has articulated, my sense is they are simply trying to bring attention to the fact that centered cards are commanding huge premiums in the market place, and perhaps it would benefit the TPGs to take notice and adjust their grading policies to keep up with the reality in the marketplace. Do I personally like any stickers on my holders? No, I do not. I crave simplicity and cleanliness. But I do support the bigger idea of the TPGs recognizing true eye appeal more than they currently do.

Well said. Why get your panties in a twist over a sticker? There are a lot of casual collectors that aren't as knowledgable as some on this board and might not know centering commands a premium in today's market. The stickers are for them and I think at the end of the day a fun way for Brady and Jeff to add a little of their own expertise to the mix.

[mechanicalman]

[QUOTE=Peter_Spaeth;1800925]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

Honestly, no, because the buyers can see that it's better centered and the AH can tell them that. I don't think the qualifier which just states the obvious adds anything. Would you add a sticker to a Picasso being sold that said, good eye appeal?

So, to be clear, if your card had a designation from the industry’s largest TPG implying that your card was aesthetically better than the benchmark, you WOULD NOT have any greater confidence that your card would sell for more. In fact, you believe nothing more could be done to drive the value of your card beyond a scan and the wildly impartial write-up of the AH compensated for selling your card.

OK. I don’t find that rational, so we’ll have to agree to disagree. I wish you a good rest of your Sunday, my friend.

[Peter_Spaeth]

[QUOTE=mechanicalman;1800934]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So, to be clear, if your card had a designation from the industry’s largest TPG implying that your card was aesthetically better than the benchmark, you WOULD NOT have any greater confidence that your card would sell for more. In fact, you believe nothing more could be done to drive the value of your card beyond a scan and the wildly impartial write-up of the AH compensated for selling your card.

OK. I don’t find that rational, so we’ll have to agree to disagree. I wish you a good rest of your Sunday, my friend.

May your evening be well-centered.

Funny, the last two posts show both of us as quoting ourselves, not the other.

[barrysloate]

The one thing a TPG does that is indispensable, assuming they get it right, is to determine whether or not a card has been altered. Most collectors can't do that themselves. After that, I don't know. The numerical grades are dubious at best, and really of use primarily to the registry crowd. And any collector can determine if he is happy with the centering. That's just a visual.

The 1971 Clemente is a beautiful looking card and deserves the choice designation, but I want that sticker put on by a third party, and not by the seller himself. If the seller did it, it has no meaning at all.

[mechanicalman]

[QUOTE=Peter_Spaeth;1800940]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

May your evening be well-centered.

Funny, the last two posts show both of us as quoting ourselves, not the other.

LOL

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

If the seller did it, it has no meaning at all.

That seems obvious to me as well but people see it differently.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Again, the question I put to you before: what's your cutoff for the C, how do you propose measuring it, and does it apply to all cards or just before a certain year?

I'm not sure where the exact cutoff would be, but the goal should be so that the top 5-10% of any card would qualify. I'm sure PSA could figure something out. 53/47 or so should work for most vintage issues.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

The one thing a TPG does that is indispensable, assuming they get it right, is to determine whether or not a card has been altered. Most collectors can't do that themselves. After that, I don't know. The numerical grades are dubious at best, and really of use primarily to the registry crowd. And any collector can determine if he is happy with the centering. That's just a visual.

The 1971 Clemente is a beautiful looking card and deserves the choice designation, but I want that sticker put on by a third party, and not by the seller himself. If the seller did it, it has no meaning at all.

So the TPG verifies that the card is not altered. Got it.
The numerical grade is needed only for the registry crowd. Got it.
But who authenticates that the sticker is authentic, and does contain the DNA of the seller. Such authentication would be of benefit to blind collectors.

It seems odd to me that the hobby's migration to "centering" as the primary quality with an influence in the pricing matrix seemingly rendering other grading metrics marginal. And yet that number and the three letters on the flip still carry a fair amount of weight to buyers, whether they can open their eyes or not to assess centering.

Buy numbers, buy stickers, buy flips and the company affixed to them, buy centered, buy scrap, buy rarity, buy scarcity or simply buy a card you want and sit back and watch the circus. Diversity should be lauded by all, even if there is absolutely no agreement about what this hobby is all about.

The centering train is the third rail of card collecting and more power to those of you who have a ticket.

And for those of you who disagree (and why wouldn't you?), rest assured that I am fully prepared to spend my "time out" in my sharpest corner as long as I can have cold beer in the meantime. Please do not make any offers, I have wrinkles.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I'm not sure where the exact cutoff would be, but the goal should be so that the top 5-10% of any card would qualify. I'm sure PSA could figure something out. 53/47 or so should work for most vintage issues.

But see, there are people for whom that is not a centered card. I see a huge slippery slope problem here and like anything it's going to descend into arbitrariness.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

But see, there are people for whom that is not a centered card. I see a huge slippery slope problem here and like anything it's going to descend into arbitrariness.

You have to draw the line somewhere. For any issue it's rare everyone will be pleased with where its drawn. But the point is I think this qualifier would be good for the hobby. I can see many of you disagree. But I think a lot of the guys who collect and pay a premium for centered cards will be in favor of this.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

You have to draw the line somewhere. For any issue it's rare everyone will be pleased with where its drawn. But the point is I think this qualifier would be good for the hobby. I can see many of you disagree. But I think a lot of the guys who collect and pay a premium for centered cards will be in favor of this.

Explain this to me. As you say, plenty of guys are paying major premiums for centered cards. So why are you worried that when you go to sell your centered cards, guys won't pay a major premium unless PSA blesses the cards with a qualifier?

[Throttlesteer]

Maybe the new qualifier should be, "OCD". Well, maybe CDO because the letters need to be in order.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

You have to draw the line somewhere. For any issue it's rare everyone will be pleased with where its drawn. But the point is I think this qualifier would be good for the hobby. I can see many of you disagree. But I think a lot of the guys who collect and pay a premium for centered cards will be in favor of this.

i dont think people need someone else to tell them how the centering is..

what i have said before is that PSA should keep pictures of all cards graded at one of their elite levels maybe $1000 or more and give a best in grade to a card...yeah future cards may now get best in grade so there would be two of them..but thats still a small size...as best in grades wouldnt be given often

[the 'stache]

Piccadilly Circus

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Explain this to me. As you say, plenty of guys are paying major premiums for centered cards. So why are you worried that when you go to sell your centered cards, guys won't pay a major premium unless PSA blesses the cards with a qualifier?

I suppose I shouldn't be as every time I've sent one to auction I've been happy with the result. But it adds an extra element of risk to what is already a risky way to sell something. Especially when you broke or shattered a vcp record to get the card in the first place.