Opinions Needed on Christy Mathewson Tuxedo Tobacco Sign

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Posted By: CarltonHendricks

A friend of mine called me tonight and told me about the sign in the link below that he bought for $450.00 on a buy it now on eBay. It doesn't look right to me. I told him to get some other opinions. He hasn't sent the check yet! The same seller also has a Froy Joy die diecut sign with Ruth on it for a BIN of $250.00 that my friend is also taken with, see link to it also. And the seller also has a "1940's Bob Feller Candy Advertising Store Sign!! Boy that seller sure has a lot of great signs!!!!!!

The seller's story is "My Grandfather had a country store in a small town in North Carolina"...I gotta tell ya, I'm just not buying it. Can I please get some other opinions? I'm anxious to hear the nays or yeas. I see these types of signs on eBay and usually just gloss over them as fakes.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBSAA:US:11&Item=200247905406>

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200248132729&ssPageName=MERC_VIC_RCRX_Pr4_PcY_BIN_Stores_IT&refitem=200247905406&itemcount=4&refwidgetloc=closed_
view_item&usedrule1=CrossSell_LogicX&refwidgettype=cross_promot_widget&_trksid=p284.m183&_trkparms=algo%3DCRX%26its%3DS%252BI%252BSS%26itu% 3DISS%252BUCI%252BSI%26otn%3D4

PS, 08' National Story is coming along

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Posted By: davidcyclebeck

The genuine Mathewson Tuxedo trolly signs with this design/graphics are much larger and worth thousands of dollars each.

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Posted By: Mike H

Any seller (even if not a sports antiques specialist) who has the volume of sales this guy does, would either know the market value or research it enough to know. Definately a scam. Tell your friend to see if the seller will send it to a third party and that he will pay for all fees associated with it if they are good. If they are garbage, then the seller pays.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Fake.

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Posted By: Mark

Agree with the above. What are the odds that his Granfather just happened to own a country store, and that these two items went undiscovered all this time? Then add to it that this fellow just happens to be a seller of sports memorabilia. What an amazing (and convenient) coincidence!

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Posted By: Max Weder

Thoughts on this?



http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200253998793&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=010

I seem to recall having seen one of these come up before, and the consensus was that it was a reproduction, and I don't recall seeing a confirmed genuine one to compare, as with the tuxedo signs

Max

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Posted By: CarltonHendricks

Thanks all, keep'um coming, all these comments confirm what I feel.

Max, I've seen a booth at one or more shows that was full of signs, all that same format with the photo displayed like that, for various big name vintage baseball stars. I recall the first time I saw one in a booth that just had one of DiMaggio....I was examining it closely and the seller told me it wasn't old. I's say that one is pretty much 100% fakeadina. I don't think the people that make them intend to sell them as old, it's later up the food chain that it morphosis as being from the estate of an old couple that owned a "country store". They are good looking and nicely done though.

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Posted By: Greg Theberge

Without seeing these personally, I would have to say that they all look like reproductions to me. That would include Max's piece as well.

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Posted By: Brock G.

All his signs are definitely fake. This Mathewson sign is not the right size. Real ones are like 12" x 20" I believe.
And the Ruth "Fro-Joy" sign is done on the same material that the fake "Fan for a Fan" pieces are printed on.

And as was stated before, the seller clearly has a knowledge of memorabilia judging by his other items for sale and seems to be playing dumb on these signs. If they were in fact real, he would know and would also know the value. And the "old country store" line is pretty lame if you ask me.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Offering an 'original' 1920s Babe Ruth Fro Joy Die Cut advertising sign for $250 is all I need to know. What would a genuine be worth, about $30,000? For an original one, $250 might be the shipping and insurance charge. That's the same initial 'shipping charge' thought I had for the $450 Mathewson sign. I believe originals can sell for over $10,000 at big auction houses like Mastro and REA.

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Posted By: Max Weder

Carlton

I don't know the word "fakeadina". I much prefer "faque"

The second Mathewson sign is a pretty cool reproduction for say $100, but if real, the price would be off the charts. (And please forgive my card ignorance) but isn't that an Ullman pc of Matty that is displayed?

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Max, your item looks like a chalk sketch on a chalkboard. It might be worth $20 until it rains or the cat rubs against it.

Old chalkboards, including little handheld ones for kids, commonly had wooden frames like that.

Chalkboard signs are even common today, but the graphics usually don't last 48 hours much less 100 years. There are chalk artists today who can do incredible, sometimes painting-like art--, and are hired by stores and restaurants. A local coffee shop has behind the counter a giant color chalk on chalkboard panorama of Seattle. The employees have to be careful not to smudge it, as the artist charges to touch it up.

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Posted By: CarltonHendricks

Max, I spelled it wrong...actually it's Fakeadena...just north of Passadena...first you find out it's Fakeadena...then the whole deal goes south, and you go to Passadena

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Posted By: barrysloate

David- An original Christy Mathewson tuxedo ad could even sell for over $10,000 at a small auction house such as Brockelman & Luckey, or Sloate Auctions. Why do you feel it takes a large auction house to realize that price? Do they have a secret bidder list that we little guys don't?

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Barry, my $10,000 statement was vague enough that it can't be used to prove how I quantify or qualify specific auction houses. The statement was meant to give an idea of pricing and example of selling venue, specifically in comparison to the $450 BIN on eBay.

I believe I've used on this board Sloate as an example auction house of rare baseball cards, so my conscience is clean.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I am just trying to explode the myth that large auction houses magically get higher prices, since I am the owner of a small auction house.

What the large auction houses do get is better consignments, so of course those items will achieve great prices.

Not a big deal, just thought I'd like to get a shot at a great piece like that too (if it were real).

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I've seen vintage baseball cards and related material get very high prices in Sloate and B & L auctions, so price realized isn't an issue with quality niche auction houses. In fact, the niche houses with niche audience probably sometimes achieve higher prices on niche material. The biggest auction houses have an unusually wide range of material-- George Washington autographs to Elvis worn jacket.

Would a Tuxedo baseball sign fit in with an established niche auction of Pre-War baseball cards, tobacco premiums, cabinet photos, etc? Sure. Early baseball cards and baseball tobacco advertising are closely associated by collectors.

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Posted By: barrysloate

That's a fair statement. I would have phrased your post something like: " a genuine Christy Mathewson Tuxedo ad could go for more than $10,000 if placed in a good auction." Just seems more diplomatic.

It's different if someone comes on the board with a collection to sell and requests the name of a good auction house. Then I would name names.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I usually say quality auction house, quality includes good material, good, realize prices, knowledgeable, strong hobby reputation, etc. Both REA and Sloate, Lelands and Lipset would qualify as quality and well established auction houses for rare and vintage baseball stuff.

Obviously the auction house, quality or not, has to be an appropriate venue for the type of material. Luciano Pavaratti's opera worn Pagliacci clown suit no doubt is worth good money, but probably isn't best consigned to a hockey card auction.

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Posted By: barrysloate

That's the spirit!

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Many top dealers, who get top $$ and are house hold names in the hobby, are one man operations, so I agree that size itself doesn't determine price and reputation. Some of the biggest and most influential hobby names, from Mike Gutierrez to Mr Mint, probably worked on their own or with a couple of helpers.

Sherlock Holmes solved more cases than Scotland Yard, and his only assistant was the vacant Dr. Watson. Scotland Yard probably had 5,000 employees and that many times the payroll.