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Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions

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  #1  
Old 02-17-2011, 04:42 PM
abothebear abothebear is offline
George E.
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Default W560 advice; Hornsby and Johnson

Hello everyone,

My name is George. I am new here. Here is a brief introduction: I am of those who where obsessed with cards as a kid and teen, then was disillusioned with the market of the late 90s and distracted by college and starting a family, only to return in my 30s and find out my old collection had no market value. In some ways I was glad for this because it allowed me to re-enter the game with minimal investment. After stumbling upon, and winning, a poor man's Ty Cobb (The National Game Runner Sliding) I was bewitched by pre-war cards... which led me here. I am a Cardinals fan, but grew a Tigers fan. There you have it.

I have really enjoyed reading through the site over the last week. I have learned a lot from the wealth of expertise here and have appreciated the friendly atmosphere. This is a classy place.

Here is where I need help (today) - I gambled on a junk lot and it looks like what I hoped would be included actually was included. From what I have read on the site these W560s pass the tests, but I want to be sure before I try and sell them (No offense Cubs fans, but I'd rather have a Cardinals Hornsby). So first, anyone suspicious of these? Second, assuming they're legit, what do you suggest I do with the original remnant on the Hornsby. The Hornsby was the left-most card on the strip and whoever originally cut it didn't cut the left side or bottom. Do I leave it be? or do I cut it? I understand the argument not to cut up an un-cut strip, but what about one already cut? And lastly, I know this may be a tacky question, but how do I value these, especially as they are cut (Also, I don't know how well you can see it but the Hornsby has a light crease across he middle)? From what I have read the two-tones are scarcer than the monochromes, but I haven't seen many sales to compare them to. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks everyone.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Hornsbyfront4.jpg (18.8 KB, 403 views)
File Type: jpg Hornsbyback4.jpg (13.7 KB, 401 views)
File Type: jpg Johnsonfront4.jpg (18.1 KB, 401 views)
File Type: jpg Johnsonback4.jpg (12.5 KB, 400 views)
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  #2  
Old 02-17-2011, 05:10 PM
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Frank Kealoha Ward
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Look good,
I have never seen fakes or reprints of the 2 tone W560s.

They are much scarcer than the single color ones, but only sell for maybe 1.5- 2X more

Id leave them alone, or maybe cut some of the left border off the Hornsby, but that would be it. Make sure to keep the red lines.



PS the guides need to fix the date of this set... I never noticed, but the Hornsby says "Cubs", so would obviously have to be 1929 or later, not 1927.

I would also think the 2 tone ones were made first, and the the single color ones later (easier), but there is no proof that I know of.

Last edited by fkw; 02-17-2011 at 05:19 PM.
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  #3  
Old 02-17-2011, 08:34 PM
abothebear abothebear is offline
George E.
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Default thanks

Thanks, Frank.

I've had your site bookmarked for a while now and reference it often.

Interesting observation on the year. I was going to counter with a comment about how '27 was Johnson's last year as a pitcher but then noticed he was back with the Senators as the manager in '29. And I suppose there are plenty of examples of card makers printing retired stars anyway.

George
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  #4  
Old 02-17-2011, 08:41 PM
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Default real and....

I agree with Frank. They look real. I would leave them the way they are and not cut anything off. They look fine the way they are (to me). Happy you found our site and make yourself at home. It is usually a very friendly place. Some people call us "cliquish" but I would prefer to say we stick together and take up for each other more so than are a clique. Welcome aboard. regards
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  #5  
Old 02-17-2011, 11:50 PM
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Default W

welcome aboard!!!!
and as Leon suggests--don't touch 'em--they look great.

best,
barry
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  #6  
Old 02-18-2011, 05:12 AM
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Brad Green
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The year of issue is pretty important for this set. Those that care about rookie cards have included this "1927" card as a rookie card for Lefty Grove (and probably other players). If the cards weren't issued until 1929, then this card may no longer be considered a rookie card for Lefty. That would open up a few other 1928 cards as candidates.

I wonder if the proposed 1929 year of issue for the Johnson and Hornsby above is consistent with other players in the set. Is Ty Cobb in the set? His last year was 1928. If he is not in the set, then a 1929 year of issue would be consistent with that.
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  #7  
Old 02-18-2011, 10:01 AM
abothebear abothebear is offline
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Default no cobb

According to the checklist on VintageCardPrices.com there is no Cobb in the set.
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  #8  
Old 02-18-2011, 10:07 AM
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George E.
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Default what is Foxx's rookie?

If the W560 is a 1929 issue then that would mean the R315 would move ahead of it for Foxx. Is there an earlier Foxx than that one? There is a '26-'29 exhibit but I don't know how those work, does that guarantees a '26 or '27 issue for Foxx?
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Old 02-18-2011, 11:37 AM
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Brad Green
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There are some questions regarding the year of issue for the R315's as well. It may have been issued over several years. I believe that some have proposed here on net54 that the year of issue should be more like 1930 or 1931 for the R315's. You will likely find the post that I'm referring to by searching the website. (I can't do it at the moment.)

The range of years for the postcard-back exhibits raise questions as well. To confirm the year for a particular player, you would have to find the original photo used to make the card and try to track down the year in which that photo was taken. Someone told me that Conlon dated all of his photos. If Foxx's photo is by Conlon, then there must be a date somewhere for that picture. As far as the Grove postcard-back exhibit, I believe that it was a Conlon photo taken in 1928.
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  #10  
Old 02-18-2011, 11:52 AM
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I think it is important to point out that the single color set and the bi-cololred sets are DIFFERENT SETS. The selection of subjects changed slightly.

The bi-colored set was produced first (as Frank mentioned) while the single color set came after, although they could have been made the same year as 1929 seems to be the common denominator in all this. The bi-colored set had a much more mixed subject matter as you can see on Leon's sheet above (Walter Hagan(golf), Delores Costello (actress), Max Schmelling (boxer), and a bunch of aviators). While those subjects have been replaced on my single color sheet with more ballplayers, Maguire first played with Boston in 1929 (there's that date again).

The reason I say it is clear that the bi-colored set came first is the card of Lester Bell on my sheet below, when I first saw the card I wondered why the heck there were little parachuters on the card (I assume it was a "wild" card for the deck). Then a few years later I saw the same sheet Leon has and I realized they had just recycled the format already laid out with the aviator as the subject (where a parachutist would have made sense) and replaced that subject with a ballplayer and just kept the parachute design.

-Rhett

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Last edited by rhettyeakley; 02-18-2011 at 11:53 AM.
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  #11  
Old 02-18-2011, 07:32 PM
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Brad Green
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Default R315's...

Here is the thread about the year of issue for the R315's...

http://www.network54.com/Forum/15365...64/R315+Dating
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  #12  
Old 02-18-2011, 10:51 PM
abothebear abothebear is offline
George E.
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These kinds of things are one of the reasons I have shifted toward pre-war cards. There are still mysteries to be solved.
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  #13  
Old 03-15-2011, 05:25 PM
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Default up for sale

Hey guys,

I finally got around to writing up the auction for these rare beauties and I posted them over in the B/S/T section if anyone is interested. Auction ends on Sunday, bid early and bid often.
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  #14  
Old 03-16-2011, 02:26 AM
ls7plus ls7plus is offline
Larry
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Default 1927 (?) W560 Foxx

Interesting question re the W560 Foxx being a true 1927 rookie. If one assumes the roster for the cards was determined based on the player's performance the year before, it would seem unlikely Foxx's card was truly issued in 1927. In 1926, he played in only 26 games and had just 32 at bats (hitting .313 with 0 HR's). Even if the issue was released during the 1927 season, or shortly thereafter, he might well not have been deemed worthy of selection for the set. That year he played in just 61 games, with 130 at bats, hitting .323 with five HR's (good states for a part-time 19-20-year-old, but maybe unlikely to gain him sufficient notice for inclusion into the set). Foxx' first real year of note was 1928, when he appeared in 118 games as a 20-21 year old, had 400 at bats, with 13 HR's and a .328 average. For a youngster, even then, that should have gotten him noticed! However, Jimmie's first big year didn't come until 1929, when he pounded out 33 HR's and batted a resounding .354. I'd always wondered how he would have managed to have been included in a 1927 set, based on where he was at in his career at that time.

Barry's on record as saying the 1926-1929 Exhibits Postcard back is his rookie, and I agree, but am somewhat biased, as I have that issue in EX (although I also have both the R315 in the scarcer gold/yellow stock variation as well as the more commonly seen black and white example). Frankly, I never did like the W560's, and would not be disappointed to learn that 1929 was the real date of issuance for that set. As Barry said in an earlier post on this very issue, let the debate begin!


Adam is almost certainly the most knowledgable with regard to the most probable date the 1926-1929 Exhibits Foxx was actually issued, however. It might be deduced from the PSA pop reports that this card was a one-year issue. It is fairly tough to acquire in higher grades.

Larry

Last edited by ls7plus; 03-16-2011 at 02:30 AM. Reason: grammar
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  #15  
Old 03-28-2012, 03:48 PM
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I did not win this recent ebay auction (underbidder as usual), but was this a 2 tone (or 2 color) W560 Ruth card? It looks like red and black, but the black portion still has a reddish tint to it.
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File Type: jpg w560_ruth_2color_front.jpg (75.5 KB, 119 views)
File Type: jpg w560_ruth_2color_back.jpg (73.8 KB, 119 views)
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  #16  
Old 03-28-2012, 03:50 PM
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For comparison, here is the W560 Ruth that I do own.
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  #17  
Old 03-28-2012, 05:02 PM
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Frank Kealoha Ward
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the W560s are sometimes found with that pink card stock. that was a nice card, sold for good $$ too, but the earlier 2 tone ones are far tougher than the single color ones.

there is also a yellow stock and an orangeish stock too on the single color type


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  #18  
Old 03-28-2012, 06:16 PM
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I have about 20-25 of the multicolored variations and always looking for more. Within this small sample size, I've noticed 3 paper stock variations - a pink, which I have the most of by far, a sickly greenish looking variation and the commonly seen orangish variation.

001.jpg
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  #19  
Old 03-29-2012, 05:42 PM
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On Foxx, the best way to tell which printing the card is from is to check the card back. There should not be a plain back or a "correspondence" back Foxx card, as those appear to be 1925-1926-27 [at latest] series. I would expect Foxx always to have a "not to be used" PC back. If there one of the other backs, it would be an earlier issue. If the Foxx predates 1928 I would also expect not to see "Made in USA" and not to see a uniform sans serif small typeface on the card backs. Beyond that, unfortunately, I cannot see how to pin down the Foxx date any more closely. A "Made in USA" back with the cruddy looking mixed typeface could be any time from 1927 on. A coupon back could be as early as 1927 if it is a stamped coupon. If printed, it would be a 1928 or later. Rare either way in the PC back issue.

Hope that wasn't too cryptic or confusing but it is late in the day thursday and I am tired.
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  #20  
Old 03-29-2012, 06:24 PM
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As a big-time Foxx fan, with several of his early cards, many thanks, Adam.

Best regards,

Larry
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  #21  
Old 03-29-2012, 10:25 PM
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Thanks for the great info, here are my three, guess I will need to start looking for the color variations-

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