Grading Company documentation??

[rickswaine]

Do any other the grading companies keep documentation of why they graded an individual card the way they did. And if not - Why not?

I submitted vintage cards for grading for the first time late last year taking advantage of PSA's introductory offer. I hate slabbed cards, but figured I'd better learn a little about the process if was going to start selling some of my collection.

When I got the cards back I was surprised that there was no explanation for the grades assigned. Some graded higher and some lower than I expected but I couldn't detect a pattern. I'd made the submission (a mix of pre-war and early Topps/Bowmans in the $200-$500 range) with the hope of getting a better idea of what type of grade to expect so I called PSA to get some feedback. I was amazed to find out that they don't keep any documentation as to why they assigned the grades they did. I just assumed they at least scanned them before grading and made some minimial notes so they could talk intelligently to their customers, but I was dead wrong. The PSA rep did agree to take another look at them and try to give me an idea of why they received the grade they did, so I shipped them back at my own expense.

The cards were returned a few weeks later and two of the six had been upgraded slightly and two others had yellow post-it-notes attached with notations of "wrinkle" and "corner." The other two were unchanged.

I'm getting ready to submit a few vintage pre-war cards to SCG. Should I expect anything different?

[Matt]

Rick - I suggested a while back that the grading companies take scans of each of the cards they grade to have a record (useful for verifying rare issues as well as cases where a fake is slipped into a slab). Mark from Beckett explained that the extra 15 seconds per card that would take would require them hiring a full time employ based on the number of cards they receive and therefore it wasn't cost efficient. A imagine it would take longer to write or type specific notes about each card that came through and therefore even less cost efficient, so, as a policy, I can't imagine any grading company doing that. As a special request, for a few cards here or there, it happens.

[brookdodger55]

I]The PSA rep did agree to take another look at them and try to give me an idea of why they received the grade they did, so I shipped them back at my own expense.

The cards were returned a few weeks later and two of the six had been upgraded slightly and two others had yellow post-it-notes attached with notations of "wrinkle" and "corner." The other two were unchanged.

I find it very interesting that you asked for an explanation of WHY the cards recieved the grades that they did. PSA's answer to you was to bump two of the cards for you, with explanation on two other cards. I think because you were a new customer they bumped the two cards for you. Know there are two more over-graded cards from PSA in the market-place. Credibility again is an issue with grading and PSA.

[barrysloate]

Of course the obvious question is if they bumped those two cards when you resubmitted, why didn't they just get it right the first time? But why go there.

[GehrigFan]

Yeah, unfortunately, I doubt anyone will start doing this soon. I would love it - in fact, no one would love it more than the grading companies probably, to have that database of information. But unless it actually brings in more revenue, companies just aren't likely to do this unless they increase rates to cover the additional expenses. Hopefully one day, though - I know I would love it!

Mark

Originally Posted by Matt

Rick - I suggested a while back that the grading companies take scans of each of the cards they grade to have a record (useful for verifying rare issues as well as cases where a fake is slipped into a slab). Mark from Beckett explained that the extra 15 seconds per card that would take would require them hiring a full time employ based on the number of cards they receive and therefore it wasn't cost efficient. A imagine it would take longer to write or type specific notes about each card that came through and therefore even less cost efficient, so, as a policy, I can't imagine any grading company doing that. As a special request, for a few cards here or there, it happens.

[mcap100176]

I don't think it would entail scanning.

When the grading company prints the numerical grade, how is that done? I assume it must be a software program as it consists of a numerical grade, description and serial number?

Could or would it be possible for the grading company to have internal check marks related to the serial number? Such as "bent corner," "off center," etc.

Ideally, the company can make there database public. By entering the serial number, collectors could see what was wrong with the card. I don't see a reason for including a scan as the description is there.

BVG is close with what is on the the label (centering, corners, etc) but not to the level of detail I think everyone would want.

I have seen it posted before on the forum, if there was a universal database, that would be utopia (VCP I nominate you, haha). And I am not even going to start a discussion on the problems with creating such a database.

[BobbyVCP]

Time is the major factor, for $10 they probable spend about 30 seconds looking over the card to determine a grade. If they had to write an explanation why and point out all the flaws it would greatly increase the time spent on each card. I think somewhere it is posted that PSA grades over 100K cards a month. So now if you increase that time from 30 seconds a card to 3 minutes you would have to add a lot more graders to keep up with demand. As well with the increased time they would have to increase the cost to you. Scanning each card and documenting it also demands a lot of time. Then they would have to put in a system to organize each card. I can see them offering a premium service where they give you the choice for this but don't think many people would do it because of it would cost to much.

[showtime]

Originally Posted by mcap100176

I don't think it would entail scanning.

When the grading company prints the numerical grade, how is that done? I assume it must be a software program as it consists of a numerical grade, description and serial number?

Could or would it be possible for the grading company to have internal check marks related to the serial number? Such as "bent corner," "off center," etc.

Ideally, the company can make there database public. By entering the serial number, collectors could see what was wrong with the card. I don't see a reason for including a scan as the description is there.

BVG is close with what is on the the label (centering, corners, etc) but not to the level of detail I think everyone would want.

I have seen it posted before on the forum, if there was a universal database, that would be utopia (VCP I nominate you, haha). And I am not even going to start a discussion on the problems with creating such a database.

BVG no longers puts sub grades on vintage cards and has not for quite some time. Most are aware of that. Another reason BVG lost many customers (besides the obvious reasons)

[IMG][/IMG]

[donmuth]

It amazes me that the grading companies don't keep detailed records of the deficiencies each card has. Everything is computerized so they could easily denote flaws and locations for each card fairly quickly. If doing this imposes too much more time in their process, then my question is how much time do they spend now per card? 30 seconds? 2 minutes? What? How much do card graders get paid per hour and how many cards can they grade in one hour? Seems a bit odd to me that keeping good records would be too expensive considering what people pay per card to get stuff graded...

Personally, I think scans would be nice to have on record.

I wonder if some industrious entrepreneur could perhaps develop something like facial recognition software for cards? Such software could perhaps be used to identify stolen cards, cards that have been cracked out and re-submitted, forgeries, alterations, etc.

[showtime]

Originally Posted by donmuth

It amazes me that the grading companies don't keep detailed records of the deficiencies each card has. Everything is computerized so they could easily denote flaws and locations for each card fairly quickly. If doing this imposes too much more time in their process, then my question is how much time do they spend now per card? 30 seconds? 2 minutes? What? .

They spend roughly 15 seconds to 30 seconds at most per card. 30 is on the high side. With the more valuable cards, more time is spent for accurate grades. When you are talking low to mid value cards dont expect more than 30. When you get in to ultra rare and high end more time is spent.

edited...
not to say the quick grades are not accurate, but when dealing with cards worth thousands of dollars, neither the submitter or the card companies want any questions to arise about the grade

[drc]

For 100,000 cards a month, 10 additional seconds per card = 278 additional hours per month. That would require 1.7 new workers working a 40 hour week. And 10 seconds probably isn't enough time to write worthwhile notes.

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by showtime

Another reason BVG lost many customers (besides the obvious reasons)

What are the obvious reasons?

[Bridwell]

I would suggest that a 1st class grading company should keep written details and a front/back scan on file for high-dollar cards. If someome is spending $50-$100 to have a card graded, than there is enough money for someone to spend 5 minutes documenting that card.

PSA could have saved itself a lot of embarassment by spending more time on certain high-profile cards they've graded in the past.

Ron

[Kehfee]

It would appear that PSA is having a hard enough time making money these days. Increasing their costs OR passing on higher grading fees to customers is not the sort of thing that is going to help them.

One thing I learned when I got into the graded card game is that I actually had to really educate myself about the grading of cards. The more I handled graded cards the more familiar I became with how grading is done. That is not to say that there isn't head scratchers here and there, but that sort of thing is expected when you add the human factor into grading.

Originally Posted by donmuth

It amazes me that the grading companies don't keep detailed records of the deficiencies each card has. Everything is computerized so they could easily denote flaws and locations for each card fairly quickly. If doing this imposes too much more time in their process, then my question is how much time do they spend now per card? 30 seconds? 2 minutes? What? How much do card graders get paid per hour and how many cards can they grade in one hour? Seems a bit odd to me that keeping good records would be too expensive considering what people pay per card to get stuff graded...

Personally, I think scans would be nice to have on record.

I wonder if some industrious entrepreneur could perhaps develop something like facial recognition software for cards? Such software could perhaps be used to identify stolen cards, cards that have been cracked out and re-submitted, forgeries, alterations, etc.

The problem is though even if you get the scanning recognition software down, nothing beats the naked eye in grading a card to detect other alterations. Also now they have to break into the grading industry and deal with the negatives of many not wanting change. If one of the 4 grading co. don't come out with this software do you think it would work. Would you send them a $100-$10,000 card for scaning if it was some joe schmo???????? And if the scanning reveals a lower grade than a grader would you still keep using that co?? It's about $$$ bottom line. No one wants a grade 2.5 from a computer that is made to detects subtile flaws when they can get a 3.5-4 from a guy staring at cards all day(a job I would love to have by the way).

[showtime]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

What are the obvious reasons?

the fairly poor grading of vintage cards in general, as i see it. i recently sent 10 bvg's i had, individually purchased and others also sent to bvg by myself before i knew better, to sgc for crossover.....1 crossed at the same grade, several were a full grade lower, 1 was even two grades lower. i later did some research on the teams at bvg vs. sgc and the knowledge and careers of the sgc graders were much more impressive to me, other than Andy Broome at BVG who is solid. when i compare some of my bvg cards to sgc cards with the same grade its night and day which card is better, SGC. I dont think that means SGC is harder on grading, simply more accurate. BVG seems to let softer corners and not so clean surfaces get higher grades they just dont deserve. My opinions of course.

[Wite3]

Okay...how about this...card arrives and is logged into a computer and assigned a serial number. Then given to grader who sits in front of a computer, types in serial number and then has fields to fill in with a ten key. Let us say that instead of writing down on that little slip of paper PSA and SGC use, the grader ten keys the grades for the corners, surface, centering, wear, etc. in some fields. When done, he hits enter and the computer automatically figures grade and prints label. It would probably save them time and would keep a record. In this way, a rep. would be able to look up a card by serial number and get the values given for each grading criteria. There could even be a note section with a drop down menu for simple notes like "paper loss", "factory miscut". etc. Not that hard and not that time intensive for the grading companies.

This would also help to cut down on the fraud side as well with re-opening holders, fake labels, etc. by having a more complete record of the grading.

Joshua

[Rich Klein]

This situation would literally add 1-2 employees per grading company.

The bigger question is,.. would "YOU" pay a much steeper price for that documentation. I bet the answer is a loud "NO, are you out of your mind"

And this problem moves over to modern cards as well -- just ask those collectors who have traced the history of the 2001 Bowman Chrome Albert Pujols card. When that card first came out; the value is no where near where it is today; thus a few "fake" serial numbering issues have occured. Again; who would have thought to do a detailed exam of a card graded in the year of issue?

Just MOO

Rich

[cyseymour]

First off, what a contrast between the customer service of PSA and SGC. PSA responds to a complaint by bumping a couple cards up a grade, a pretty cynical way of pleasing a customer. SGC came and posted ON THIS BOARD when it saw that a trimmed card had been given a numerical grade, looking to repurchase the card.

Probably a Mac/Pc analogy is the best for SGC/PSA. That SGC has survived while all these other companies flopped is impressive enough. I doubt there is much evidence that one company's grades are more accurate than the others - both will make mistakes. Yet I find PSA's approach more authoritarian and arrogant than SGC's. Of course SGC needs that personal touch or people may not go to them at all. Still, it rings much more true than PSA's approach. I hope that PSA can improve its customer service relations in the future.

PSA cards have probably proven to be the best investments for those most worried about that, especially for high grade cards, but SGC is appealing in many other ways.