pwcc (part two)

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by calvindog

What if it was Fat Albert?

I would probably be a little more lenient, but even Al needs to keep his hands to himself

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Wow, that must have taken you months to accomplish.

PS -- do you love your significant other? If so, how much? Like a little or a lot?

Well, I certainly don't want to end up in San Quentin if that's where these leading questions are taking me.

[glchen]

Dan, it gets worse than San Quentin. As someone earlier in this thread aptly stated:

Originally Posted by JollyElm

The road to hell is paved with apologists.

Don't ask me what that means either.

[thehoodedcoder]

blahzy blazy blah blah blah.

do something about it. start a civil suit against ebay for schill bidding.

kevin

[tschock]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Bid History: Details


Bidding Details

Bidder Information
Bidder: u***r( 2057)
Feedback: 100%Positive
Item description: Item Title: 1956 Topps Mickey Mantle #135 PSA 8 NM-MT (PWCC)
Bids on this item: 18
30-Day Summary
Total bids: 342
Items bid on: 99
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 5%
Bid retractions: 5
Bid retractions (6 months): 29

Peter,

Sincere question here. How do we know in this case that this bidder retracted bids on this auction or any of Brent's auction? I don't think we can be certain of that unless his bid activity with this seller was 100%. (Or it easily could be my lack of understanding on how to interpret the information)

From Brent's own post. "Anyone who retracts a bid in our auction is flagged by eBay trust and safety and their account is labeled with the improper action." - http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...75#post1196475

I'm not being an apologist here, or implying that bid retractions are acceptable. As others have pointed out, it does bring into question a seller's "integrity".

I just was questioning whether we could determine if any of the retractions (in this case) were on PWCC auctions, and thought as a lawyer, you would appreciate how Brent's remark doesn't address someone that is allowed to continue to bid with many retractions, as long as they aren't retractions on PWCC auctions.

[HRBAKER]

That is important but less so. Still unsettling that his auctions seem to attract a significant number of bidders who think that bid retractions (anywhere) are an acceptable sort of behavior IMO.

[calvindog]

Jeff, why even discuss it unless you're willing to fund a civil lawsuit to stop it? Can you give me one intelligent reason? I know this is a tough question so I'll just sit here and wait for your response for as long as it takes.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Jeff, why even discuss it unless you're willing to fund a civil lawsuit to stop it? Can you give me one intelligent reason? I know this is a tough question so I'll just sit here and wait for your response for as long as it takes.

OK, Jeff - you got me. It's the picture with his wife.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

OK, Jeff - you got me. It's the picture with his wife.

Damn, you got me. And here I thought the board was filled with mentally-deficient imbeciles.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Damn, you got me. And here I thought the board was filled with mentally-deficient imbeciles.

You know the real reason, I might want to consign some day.

[thehoodedcoder]

to jeff:

complaining about it and not doing something is worthless.

you can waste your time doing that. i will not. its really simple.

fund it? fund gives the impression of a lot of money.
you don't have to be a millionare to file a civil suit. you can walk right down to your township building and file one for 20 to 30 bucks. it would be worth me giving you the 20 bucks, if that is to much, to shut the conversations up. let me know where to mail my check.

all of you can do the same. so stop bitching and for the price of burger king for lunch you can take action.

if not its just blah blah blah.

kevin

[Rob D.]

Sweet. Looks like there will be a doubleheader to watch tonight.

[HRBAKER]

Jeff,

Can you get Continuing Ed credit in this thread?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Jeff,

Can you get Continuing Ed credit in this thread?

Well, since you don't HAVE TO be a millionaire to file a civil suit, can you be a millionaire and still file one? Maybe Jeff L knows? I am thinking the $20 is sounding pretty darned good about now..I think he's bitten off more than he can chew, but what do I know?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by thehoodedcoder

fund it? fund gives the impression of a lot of money.
you don't have to be a millionare to file a civil suit. you can walk right down to your township building and file one for 20 to 30 bucks. it would be worth me giving you the 20 bucks, if that is to much, to shut the conversations up. let me know where to mail my check.


kevin

So after you file a civil suit, what about the lawyer's time to take depositions, make discovery requests, buy transcripts of depositions, trial time, etc?? I mean I get that you bill probably $20 an hour, but some lawyers I understand charge as much as $1000 an hour. Pretty much the market sets our relative values as human beings. Blah blah blazy blah.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

So after you file a civil suit, what about the lawyer's time to take depositions, make discovery requests, buy transcripts of depositions, trial time, etc?? I mean I get that you bill probably $20 an hour, but some lawyers I understand charge as much as $1000 an hour. Pretty much the market sets our relative values as human beings. Blah blah blazy blah.

Who needs a lawyer? Pro se is the way to go.

[Republicaninmass]

How does Pro Merkle Bono work?

[thehoodedcoder]

Originally Posted by calvindog

So after you file a civil suit, what about the lawyer's time to take depositions, make discovery requests, buy transcripts of depositions, trial time, etc?? I mean I get that you bill probably $20 an hour, but some lawyers I understand charge as much as $1000 an hour. Pretty much the market sets our relative values as human beings. Blah blah blazy blah.

sounds like nothing but excuses to me. the 20 bucks is the filing fee in small claims court. enough claims for a single case or series of events will get compiled into a class action suit.

represent yourself. do the leg work, get others to do the same thing. let your continued conviction that you pour into threads like this over and over again on this site drive you to do it yourself.

every post you put on this thread is another 5 to 15 minutes you could have done something productive with.

kevin

[Peter_Spaeth]

"enough claims for a single case or series of events will get compiled into a class action suit."

Why do people here insist on lecturing on subjects they know nothing about? Do you know the first thing about class action law?

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

"enough claims for a single case or series of events will get compiled into a class action suit."

Why do people here insist on lecturing on subjects they know nothing about? Do you know the first thing about class action law?

Peter,

That's not important, it's the internet!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Peter,

That's not important, it's the internet!

Yeah we've got Jamie on criminal investigations and indictments, and now Kevin Q on class actions. Good stuff.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

"enough claims for a single case or series of events will get compiled into a class action suit."

Why do people here insist on lecturing on subjects they know nothing about? Do you know the first thing about class action law?

He knows how to place an order at the Burger King drive-through window -- that's enough knowledge to handle the intricacies of class action law according to him.

[thehoodedcoder]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

"enough claims for a single case or series of events will get compiled into a class action suit."

Why do people here insist on lecturing on subjects they know nothing about? Do you know the first thing about class action law?

you clearly do not. i explained it perfectly. the fact that you think my explanation is lacking even in the slightest means you do not not.

companies, particulary ebay and paypal over the last 12 months if you have paid enough attention, have done everything they can to mitigate the class action suit against them by getting people to enter into agreement for binding arbitration.

let me guess, you didn't write the letter into them and gave up your rights to be a part of a class action, correct?

if we are assigning roles, jeff would be at the podium and peter would be sitting in a folding chair in the audiance, amongst a sea of empty chairs, right?

kevin

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by thehoodedcoder

let me guess, you didn't write the letter into them and gave up your rights to be a part of a class action, correct?



kevin

What are you going to spend your 25 cent check on?

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by thehoodedcoder

you clearly do not. i explained it perfectly. the fact that you think my explanation is lacking even in the slightest means you do not not.

companies, particulary ebay and paypal over the last 12 months if you have paid enough attention, have done everything they can to mitigate the class action suit against them by getting people to enter into agreement for binding arbitration.

let me guess, you didn't write the letter into them and gave up your rights to be a part of a class action, correct?

if we are assigning roles, jeff would be at the podium and peter would be sitting in a folding chair in the audiance, amongst a sea of empty chairs, right?

kevin

I'll make the Burger King run!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Damn, I guess in the twenty years I have been litigating class actions I haven't learned a thing, because Kevin here knows much more than I do. Oh well. Time to check my malpractice insurance.

[thehoodedcoder]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Damn, I guess in the twenty years I have been litigating class actions I haven't learned a thing, because Kevin here knows much more than I do. Oh well. Time to check my malpractice insurance.

answer just one thing:
are you telling me that if a company has a large number of civil cases for a particular series of events they would not push to have those cases settled as a class action instead of fighting them individually?

if you are a lawyer, listening to you blabber on this thread is even worse than it was before. someone with the facilities to do something, talking time by.

kevin

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by thehoodedcoder

answer just one thing:
are you telling me that if a company has a large number of civil cases for a particular series of events they would not push to have those cases settled as a class action instead of fighting them individually?

if you are a lawyer, listening to you blabber on this thread is even worse than it was before. someone with the facilities to do something, talking time by.

kevin

A class action typically is the last thing a defendant wants because the exposure potentially is so high once a class gets certified. Defendants typically spend a tremendous amount of effort to oppose class certification, on the theory that most plaintiffs will not pursue their claims individually and it will be much cheaper to settle or defend those suits that do get filed. There are circumstances where a defendant might want to consolidate separate cases depending on whether that procedural vehicle is available, but that is different from a class action.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

A class action typically is the last thing a defendant wants because the exposure potentially is so high once a class gets certified. Defendants typically spend a tremendous amount of effort to oppose class certification, on the theory that most plaintiffs will not pursue their claims individually and it will be much cheaper to settle or defend those suits that do get filed. There are circumstances where a defendant might want to consolidate separate cases depending on whether that procedural vehicle is available, but that is different from a class action.

Peter,

You sound just like a real lawyer.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

A class action typically is the last thing a defendant wants because the exposure potentially is so high once a class gets certified. Defendants typically spend a tremendous amount of effort to oppose class certification, on the theory that most plaintiffs will not pursue their claims individually and it will be much cheaper to settle or defend those suits that do get filed. There are circumstances where a defendant might want to consolidate separate cases depending on whether that procedural vehicle is available, but that is different from a class action.

blahzy blah blah blah. blabber.

[thehoodedcoder]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

A class action typically is the last thing a defendant wants because the exposure potentially is so high once a class gets certified. Defendants typically spend a tremendous amount of effort to oppose class certification, on the theory that most plaintiffs will not pursue their claims individually and it will be much cheaper to settle or defend those suits that do get filed. There are circumstances where a defendant might want to consolidate separate cases depending on whether that procedural vehicle is available, but that is different from a class action.

if the risk is known, then it can be smarter to consolidate. it is not unheard of. hence my comment. someone with attention to suits being filed against a particular defendant can also easily bring class action on behalf of the class. whether the defendant pushes for it, or an entity involved in a civil case brings it to a class action......with enough people filing civil suit the chances of it becoming a class action from civil suit goes up.

enter binding arbitration into the conversation where you agree not to file suit in court of law against the defendant. now you have no chance of having what most consider a fair hearing, nor the ability to join a class action suit.

nothing i said is inaccurate. thank you for confirming this.

kevin

[Peter_Spaeth]

Kevin, there is a whole plaintiffs' bar out there that wants to bring any claim it possibly can on behalf of a class, because that's where the money is. But your terminology about cases being "compiled" into class actions is not accurate. All it takes is one plaintiff to bring a class action.

[thehoodedcoder]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Kevin, there is a whole plaintiffs' bar out there that wants to bring any claim it possibly can on behalf of a class, because that's where the money is. But your terminology about cases being "compiled" into class actions is not accurate. All it takes is one plaintiff to bring a class action.

you singled out one word in everything i said? i agree. i said that a person can file on behalf of the class.

"someone with attention to suits being filed against a particular defendant can also easily bring class action on behalf of the class"

it is actually ok to admit i was not wrong.

kevin

[Peter_Spaeth]

Kevin, believe it or not, all it takes is one plaintiff to get a class certified. The class members then get notified and usually they are then bound by any settlement or judgment unless they opt out or object. So there doesn't need to be any interest beyond the one plaintiff. It's legalized blackmail.

[thehoodedcoder]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Kevin, believe it or not, all it takes is one plaintiff to get a class certified. The class members then get notified and usually they are then bound by any settlement or judgment unless they opt out or object. So there doesn't need to be any interest beyond the one plaintiff. It's legalized blackmail.

i am aware. i have bought and sold stock so i get the notifications. your a lawyer so you are trying to jerk my words to prove a point about me not knowing how it works. its 12:00pm on a work night. had i known that you would use every exact word against me i would have worded it slightly more perfect for you.

my original comments still stand. you are a lawyer, with the facilities to do it, and you are on here talking about it day in and day out? am i the only one that doesn't make sense to?

kevin

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by thehoodedcoder

i am aware. i have bought and sold stock so i get the notifications. your a lawyer so you are trying to jerk my words to prove a point about me not knowing how it works. its 12:00pm on a work night. had i known that you would use every exact word against me i would have worded it slightly more perfect for you.

my original comments still stand. you are a lawyer, with the facilities to do it, and you are on here talking about it day in and day out? am i the only one that doesn't make sense to?

kevin

As I have said, I have discussed these issues with law enforcement. I can't just go out and file a lawsuit, I need a client, a defendant, and a claim, no? Some of these matters are not all that conducive to civil class actions, in my estimation.

[thehoodedcoder]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

As I have said, I have discussed these issues with law enforcement. I can't just go out and file a lawsuit, I need a client, a defendant, and a claim, no? Some of these matters are not all that conducive to civil class actions, in my estimation.

that shouldn't be hard with how rampant the problem is right? your talking about all of the things you need every day? are you saying that the items you need are not existant? then what in the world are you talking about on here?

you basically just admitted you have nothing solid.

kevin

[RGold]

I'm starting to lose any respect I had for Harvard Law. Kevin is beating you up like a church mouse.

[drmondobueno]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

As I have said, I have discussed these issues with law enforcement. I can't just go out and file a lawsuit, I need a client, a defendant, and a claim, no? Some of these matters are not all that conducive to civil class actions, in my estimation.

Hello, Peter. I am going to stick my neck out here and ask a few questions. This whole ebay/shill/seller thing has me uncomfortable. My problem, I know. So I am asking. So feel free to shut me down if I make no sense..

I buy a card. There is bidding activity from a potential buyer that bids up the price of a card. I end up winning but only after a run up with several incremental bids. It appears there may be shilling going on. So who do I look for ? The shiller? The seller for "letting it happen"? Or is ebay accountable for not providing tools to stop this type of activity? I hated dealing with hypotheticals when I was involved in the financial industry but dont know any way to get a better idea...oh yeah, I live in California and the seller is in...pick another state...

Keith Temple

[Runscott]

Keith, Kevin, Ronald,

Would you prefer that we ignore problems we see, unless we can legally prosecute? The law isn't perfect and ebay is shielding its sellers in order to maximize profit. But despite this, we can still point out problems that we see and let our forum members react as they deem appropriate.

For instance, as a result of this discussion I might decide that Brent's actions are fine, and bid or consign with him. Or I might decide that he's a cheat who is using ebay's policies of shielding fraud, to make as much money as he can while he can. But at least we have discussed it...in a DISCUSSION FORUM... which to me seems very appropriate.

[slipk1068]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Keith, Kevin, Ronald,

Would you prefer that we ignore problems we see, unless we can legally prosecute? The law isn't perfect and ebay is shielding its sellers in order to maximize profit. But despite this, we can still point out problems that we see and let our forum members react as they deem appropriate.

For instance, as a result of this discussion I might decide that Brent's actions are fine, and bid or consign with him. Or I might decide that he's a cheat who is using ebay's policies of shielding fraud, to make as much money as he can while he can. But at least we have discussed it...in a DISCUSSION FORUM... which to me seems very appropriate.

+1

[drmondobueno]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Keith, Kevin, Ronald,

Would you prefer that we ignore problems we see, unless we can legally prosecute? The law isn't perfect and ebay is shielding its sellers in order to maximize profit. But despite this, we can still point out problems that we see and let our forum members react as they deem appropriate.

For instance, as a result of this discussion I might decide that Brent's actions are fine, and bid or consign with him. Or I might decide that he's a cheat who is using ebay's policies of shielding fraud, to make as much money as he can while he can. But at least we have discussed it...in a DISCUSSION FORUM... which to me seems very appropriate.

Scott,

The reason I asked my rather naive-looking question is because of the discussion on this thread. I am new to the hobby and am struggling with what I need to do personally about this. I have bought cards from many board members this last year and have yet to have any problem with a BST transaction, thank you all very much. I have also purchased cards from a few ebay sellers mentioned in this thread (and others), as well as a few auction houses. While my purchases are nowhere near the dollars seen in these examples, I am really wondering if I have paid inflated prices because of the condition of the marketplace.

So is the seller a cheat, or is the marketplace rigged so a guy like me won't know he's been had until...now. Be the seller an AH with a solid reputation, or an ebay site with questionable scan practices and shilling apparently all too frequent for any comfort...I am thinking about going back to building bamboo rods and forgetting all this. Too bad, as it has been a lot of fun.

My question to Mr. Spaeth was not intended as confrontational, and if taken that way, my apologies.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Keith, Kevin, Ronald,

Would you prefer that we ignore problems we see, unless we can legally prosecute? The law isn't perfect and ebay is shielding its sellers in order to maximize profit. But despite this, we can still point out problems that we see and let our forum members react as they deem appropriate.

For instance, as a result of this discussion I might decide that Brent's actions are fine, and bid or consign with him. Or I might decide that he's a cheat who is using ebay's policies of shielding fraud, to make as much money as he can while he can. But at least we have discussed it...in a DISCUSSION FORUM... which to me seems very appropriate.

Scott, the problem is that the arguments around this get too personal. People are basically calling each other idiots if they don't agree w/ the opposing opinion. There's no "I respect your opinion, and let's agree to disagree." Instead it's more like, "you are an idiot who doesn't know what the #%#$%$ you're talking about, so just shut the %$#%$# up before you embarrass yourself further."

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by glchen

Scott, the problem is that the arguments around this get too personal. People are basically calling each other idiots if they don't agree w/ the opposing opinion. There's no "I respect your opinion, and let's agree to disagree." Instead it's more like, "you are an idiot who doesn't know what the #%#$%$ you're talking about, so just shut the %$#%$# up before you embarrass yourself further."

Maybe if the people who sell widgets for a living respected the professional opinions of people who are dispensing information gleaned directly from decades of practice in that professional field instead of claiming that their lay opinions of said field are instead more accurate there wouldn't be the problem you talk about.

Maybe if the people who sell widgets for a living didn't fabricate their opinions for reasons of greed or dishonesty in an attempt to protect the fraudsters -- and instead actually gave honest opinions -- there wouldn't be the problem you talk about.

Respect is a two way street.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Maybe if the people who sell widgets for a living respected the professional opinions of people who are dispensing information gleaned directly from decades of practice in that professional field instead of claiming that their lay opinions of said field are instead more accurate there wouldn't be the problem you talk about.

Maybe if the people who sell widgets for a living didn't fabricate their opinions for reasons of greed or dishonesty in an attempt to protect the fraudsters -- and instead actually gave honest opinions -- there wouldn't be the problem you talk about.

Respect is a two way street.

+1

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rgold

i'm starting to lose any respect i had for harvard law. Kevin is beating you up like a church mouse. :d:d:d

lol.

[markf31]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Maybe if the people who sell widgets for a living respected the professional opinions of people who are dispensing information gleaned directly from decades of practice in that professional field instead of claiming that their lay opinions of said field are instead more accurate there wouldn't be the problem you talk about.

Maybe if the people who sell widgets for a living didn't fabricate their opinions for reasons of greed or dishonesty in an attempt to protect the fraudsters -- and instead actually gave honest opinions -- there wouldn't be the problem you talk about.

Respect is a two way street.

+1

It's hard to respect someone when they spew nonsense about a topic that they, in reality, know absolutely nothing about, attempt to defend their own blatant ignorance on the subject and charade as an expert on that topic. That is being stupid and/or ignorant. Sometimes you have to call a spade a spade.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by thehoodedcoder

that shouldn't be hard with how rampant the problem is right? your talking about all of the things you need every day? are you saying that the items you need are not existant? then what in the world are you talking about on here?

you basically just admitted you have nothing solid.

kevin

You just keep revealing your ignorance. There are all sorts of meritorious individual claims that do not work as class actions because of very precise and technical requirements you obviously don't know anything about. But keep it up, you are impressing my friend Ron.

[jhs5120]

On a seperate note, has anyone seen some of the bidding activity in the HYEE auction?

Do they accept consignments?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Keith not taken as confrontational at all. I think the answer in terms of a fraud claim, like in most circumstances, depends on the facts of your case, what information do you have based on bid history, etc. suggesting you have been defrauded. Fraud has to be proven by clear and convincing evidence, and alleged with particularity. This is why civil lawsuits are imperfect, as someone alluded to. It can be a catch 22 -- the evidence is in the hands of the fraudster, but without it you don't have enough to state a claim that isn't speculative. Now if Mastro's bidding records are released, for example, and it's pretty clear you were run up on a particular card -- different story.

As far as a claim against anyone for inflating the overall market, it would seem very difficult to prove that any particular card you may have bought was overpriced for that reason, as there could be a host of explanations. Then again, I tend to think like a defense lawyer, so don't take my word for it.