What is a T206 Wet Sheet Transfer???

[iggyman]

Correct me if I am wrong, but the concept that a "$$$" premium is placed on a T206 wet-sheet-transfer overprint, is because the transfer overprint occurred during the print run (for instance 1909 thru 1911). I'm an expert at nothing, but were Sweet Caporals and Polar Bears printed in the same run and in the same place???

FYI: I'm not a big fan of T206 wet sheet transfers overprints, since I've always assumed they could've happened after the print run....... and this card confirms it.

Lovely Day...

[ullmandds]

that's cool!

[Ease]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

that's cool!

+1

[asoriano]

Very nice wet sheet transfer.

[iggyman]

Sorry my snafu, should have phrased it as a "wet sheet transfer" (I edited my initial post). But, you know what...............after thinking about it, is it really a "wet sheet transfer" if the transfer did not happen during the print run???

Lovely Day...

[Abravefan11]

I don't think it's a wet sheet transfer or happened at any point during the printing process. Cool card though.

[Anthony S.]

I've always assumed that a great number of these "wet sheet transfers" are simply cards that were stored front to back (either on top of one another or sideways in a box) in a humid environment under some degree of pressure. More of a "humid card transfer" than a "wet sheet transfer."

[iggyman]

I really like the "HCT" designation. Perhaps in the future we can start a "Lets see some T206 HCT cards" thread...

Originally Posted by Anthony S.

I've always assumed that a great number of these "wet sheet transfers" are simply cards that were stored front to back (either on top of one another or sideways in a box) in a humid environment under some degree of pressure. More of a "humid card transfer" than a "wet sheet transfer."

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

I don't think it's a wet sheet transfer or happened at any point during the printing process. Cool card though.

From my limited T206 experience, I agree. A wet sheet transfer is from laying one sheet on top of another when still wet (the printing process). A Sweet Caporal sheet wouldn't have been laid on top of a Polar Bear sheet.

The cards probably got wet or damp at some point and it is probably some type of moisture transfer.

[Exhibitman]

The post-mfg argument doesn't resonate with me:

First, since no one really knows how the cards were made, sequencing, etc., it is just as likely that the transfer took place to a blank sheet and the printer did not catch it when the PB sheet was run, or that the transfer could have taken place after the front was printed and then the sheet was fed into a PB back run. Or the printer could have used a blank to clear the press and accidentally reused it in a subsequent run. That is what I suspect happened to generate this card:



Second, and in my mind most convincing, a post-mfg transfer would require that the inks are water soluble once dried. Many, many T206s have been soaked, including by people who post here. Not once has anyone reported the ink running. There are also ample water and liquid stained T206s; where are the runny inks on those? I have numerous examples of wet sheet transfers from various card issues ranging from the T era through the modern era. I have a 1948 Leaf wet sheet transfer:



I've soaked Leaf cards. They do not run. If the wet sheet transfer phenomenon was the result of rewetting I would expect a Leaf card to run. It doesn't.

[Matthew H]

I believe actuall wet sheet transfers aren't so blurry, right?

[ullmandds]

I agree with what everyone is saying and honestly...this seems like something that someone could simulate...and I'm not sure how much of a premium I would pay for something like this that possible can be created?!

pete

[Ladder7]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

I believe actuall wet sheet transfers aren't so blurry, right?

Good point Matt. imo, normally they appear sharper. Unless the "sweet cap" is an under-print. Then the multi color inks were printed over it, causing the "sweet cap" to seep/weep.

I removed thousands of T206s that were packed extremely tight against each other for generations. PM, PB, SC, OMs, Hindu, EPDG, AB that were stored in an area where the cold/warmth fluctuated constantly too. Though many showed mold and mildew damage., Not one that showed this phenom.

Can only guess as to the cause. Regardless, it's an interesting presentation, especially with the PB back!

[Anthony S.]

Actually Steve, three of the Beantown find Old Mills I purchased from you did exhibit light "wet sheet transfers" (or "humid card transfers". They weren't nearly as pronounced as the example Iggy used to start the thread and probably not the kind of thing you'd notice if you were going through 1000's of cards, nor is there any way of determining whether the effect was caused by how the sheets were stacked in the factory or by the cards being tightly packed in tobacco boxes (as you described), but I had simply assumed it was the latter.

[Ladder7]

cool Anthony!.. I missed em all., Was the overprint the same brand of cigs?

do you still have these?.. I want to buy em back

[steve B]

Water won't create a transfer after printing on anything lithographed. The inks are oil based because water is used to keep it from sticking to the plates in places it's not wanted.

Black inks can stay somewhat "wet" for well over a century, and all it takes then is pressure to make the transfer. So transfers on Old Mill, Tolstoi, and Lenox would have to be spectacular for me to believe them.

I'm thinking it's possible with red too. Exposure to either Alcohol or solvents may also help cause something like that.

The original card looks like it might be from something like that.
The Barbeau looks to me more like transfer from a ledger. The lines just don't match a SC back. And ledger inks could well be water based.

I have a very beat SC T206 I could experiment on, nobody wanted it as a trade, and I can't do much more to it than has alredy been done. I've got stuff to apply pressure, and mineral spirits and alcohol from my mechanic and woodworking hobbies. Enough interest? I may do it just to do it.

[Ladder7]

Originally Posted by steve B

I have a very beat SC T206 I could experiment on, nobody wanted it as a trade, and I can't do much more to it than has alredy been done. I've got stuff to apply pressure, and mineral spirits and alcohol from my mechanic and woodworking hobbies. Enough interest? I may do it just to do it.

Just do it!

You seem to have a grip on the processes. But wouldnt the solvents from the originally treated SC card cause the multi-color front (of the good card) to stain, run, adhere etc, to the treated card.

Also Steve. Along the right, white border of the Overall front. There appears to be the outer edge, border line (red?) from an adjacent SC card from the sheet? Very mysterious, this t206 business is.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by Ladder7

Also Steve. Along the right, white border of the Overall front. There appears to be the outer edge, border line (red?) from an adjacent SC card from the sheet? Very mysterious, this t206 business is.

That line in the right border appears to be where the edge of the card with the Sweet Cap back stopped covering the Overall when they were stacked. The border closest to the image that was covered by the other card is whiter and the outer edge that wasn't covered is more toned as it was exposed.

[Anthony S.]

I found a scan of one of the Beantown Old Mills to which I was referring.

[Abravefan11]

This image is Iggy's card with a Sweet Cap example overlaid to match the transfer. It illustrates pretty well the line Steve was referring to down the right border.

[Leon]

So the hours and hours I spent making this were wasted?

[tedzan]

I am in agreement with Adam W. The inks on most vintage cards do not "run" upon soaking these cards.

Here is my 1949 LEAF "wet sheet tranfer" of Johnny Hopp. It is quite a clear example than most wet sheet tranfers.



Iggy's T206 Overall card most likely occurred when the printer was at the end of a POLAR POLAR press run and
then switched to printing SWEET CAPORAL (SC) sheets.

It's too bad that we can't identify if the SC overprint reads "350-460 Subjects", or some other Series. If it reads
"350-460 Subjects" then it most likely is a wet sheet transfer....since this card of Overall is a 460-Only T206.


TED Z

[iggyman]

Just for the record, the card is not mine. Someone finally pulled the eBay trigger, so here is the link:

http://cgi.ebay.com/T206-Polar-Bear-...-/120755153351

By the way, a few years back I was lucky enough to purchase a small scrapbook which had a couple of glued-on T206 cards. I soaked the cards and to my surprise, one of the cards left a wet sheet transfer on a piece of the scrapbook paper. I will post a pic later tonight.

Yes..........I really did put the small piece of scrapbook paper in a top loader for prosperity sake.

Lovely Day...

[atx840]

A few I have picked up over the last few months, personally I just think they are a neat way to collect backs. But no real premium was spent above normal card value.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

It's too bad that we can't identify if the SC overprint reads "350-460 Subjects", or some other Series. If it reads
"350-460 Subjects" then it most likely is a wet sheet transfer....since this card of Overall is a 460-Only T206.

TED Z

Though blurry it can be determined that it is a 350-460 back. The text above "Subjects" is wider than three numbers like "150" or "350" therefore it has to be "350-460."

Also: I don't believe that it makes it "most likely" to be a wet sheet transfer because both the original card and the transferred back were printed during the same series. If the two had been from different series it would have made ruling out a wet sheet transfer easy but in this case it just makes it plausible but IMO still not likely.

[mrvster]

HELLO ALL

It's "freaky Johnny"

First and foremost , i would like to thank the professional printers here who can give great insight to the printers process....the ink compositions...the theories......the actualities....

i have a number of "wet sheet transfers"....they are very cool......some are done at the factory.....some were after factory........the particuliar example that just went over $120 is unfortunately (imo) only an "after the factory" transfer...not an "overprint"....you can tell because the after the factory are usually "askew" and have a different back transfered on the front....i have a similiar one that was just sold as this "overprint"


OVERPRINT- BIG BUCKS....WELL OVER 1K to sky is literally the limit!!!

WET SHEET(DEPENDS ON THE TYPE)-$50-120 INMO



that s a big difference....Steve....stop playing games with Gilbert!!!.....sell him or Tuck him AWAY!!! if you wanna sell him!! don't tease us on ebay, then drop the bottom out, dude, you are lame!!!i was high bidder!!! Gilbert is an underprint if everyone really wants to know....if you are fortunate to own one , then you know what i'm talking about......it really is not an '"overprint"......sgc will label "overprint" as such TO DIFERENTIATE IT OCCURED AT PRODUCTION!!!




exhibitman, iggy, steve .........


wet sheet transfers are on a card to card basis....if you have seen enough of them, then you know what i'm talking about.....


guys...im not going to bore you with symantics......

if anyone wants an opinion(yes they are like axxholes) on an under/over/wet sheet....send me a scan...i have been obsessed with them for over ten yearsprinter had to dry sheets...something to work off, who knew they would create a new breed of t206, a "chase" set if you will for the advanced, or insane collector such as myself!!
instead of posting all my examples.....i will post an "over/underprint" and a "wetstack" card done during the production ON THE SAME CARD

please don't make me any offers on mr Chance....he's staying with papa...
please , please excuse the pic, i spent all my cash on cardboard freaksLOL


p.s.

never wanting to offend anyone, but Steve, calling you out dude!!!

[mrvster]

HELLO ALL

It's "freaky Johnny"

First and foremost , i would like to thank the professional printers here who can give great insight to the printers process....the ink compositions...the theories......the actualities....

i have a number of "wet sheet transfers"....they are very cool......some are done at the factory.....some were after factory........the particuliar example that just went over $120 is unfortunately (imo) only an "after the factory" transfer...not an "overprint"....you can tell because the after the factory are usually "askew" and have a different back transfered on the front....i have a similiar one that was just sold as this "overprint"


OVERPRINT- BIG BUCKS....WELL OVER 1K to sky is literally the limit!!!

WET SHEET(DEPENDS ON THE TYPE)-$50-120 INMO



that s a big difference....Steve....stop playing games with Gilbert!!!.....sell him or Tuck him AWAY!!! if you wanna sell him!! don't tease us on ebay, then drop the bottom out, dude, you are lame!!!i was high bidder!!! Gilbert is an underprint if everyone really wants to know....if you are fortunate to own one , then you know what i'm talking about......it really is not an '"overprint"......sgc will label "overprint" as such TO DIFERENTIATE IT OCCURED AT PRODUCTION!!!




exhibitman, iggy, Tim steve and everyone .........


wet sheet transfers are on a card to card basis....if you have seen enough of them, then you know what i'm talking about.....


guys...im not going to bore you with symantics......

if anyone wants an opinion(yes they are like axxholes) on an under/over/wet sheet....send me a scan...i have been obsessed with them for over ten yearsprinter had to dry sheets...something to work off, who knew they would create a new breed of t206, a "chase" set if you will for the advanced, or insane collector such as myself!!
instead of posting all my examples.....i will post an "over/underprint" and a "wetstack" card done during the production ON THE SAME CARD

please don't make me any offers on mr Chance....he's staying with papa...
please , please excuse the pic, i spent all my cash on cardboard freaksLOL


p.s.

never wanting to offend anyone, but Steve, calling you out dude!!!

[Leon]

For our new members (believe it or not we still get 55-75 new members a month, seriously).....here is a quad-stamped-ghosty-thingy-over-somethin-or-another.....

[atx840]

Gilbert the ghost.

I wondered what happened, I had sold several bigger cards to put a strong bid into getting this card....such a tease.

[mrvster]

seriously....

you have 2 of my favorite cards except the double ghosted front portrait on back bender, or the missing color printer scrap plank, the "unknown" 8 sl proofs, collins proof..........

1) the multi back you have w/ brown om(btw Leon, i have another printer scrap, larry Maclean hand cut no fleshtone, but sgc wouldnt label at the time.. from that "Nemo" find where your card was discovered....came from the same shoebox/seller etc....email me and i'll send you the scan!)


2) your Matty Proof


all those cards make up their own "unique one of a kind " set...




Please don't get buried with them and leave them in your will for this humble freak!!

[mrvster]

Chris,

"seller " really never could determine a final price, unless he got a huge offer.....somehow i doubt it......so really the big bids come at the last 3 secs

maybe freemanh bought it!!!!!

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by atx840

Gilbert the ghost.

I wondered what happened, I had sold several bigger cards to put a strong bid into getting this card....such a tease.

Nah you should wait till it's listed in the BST for 2-3hrs during a work week, if you guess Steve's fav beer he may throw in a few extras from the old lady.

John

[Ladder7]

That's it, kick sand in the little dealers' face...

eBay ended it. Seems they didn't like my comment, "Other forms of pymnt accepted"

Okay, Who's the rat?

Wasn't u I know freaky johnny.

Incidentally, Next time I need to list on ebay. Ive got to pass some kinda Sellers test, to see that I'd read the rules. hah!


More to come.

[Anthony S.]

Seems like Ebay took a page from Stalinist Russia. Not only did they end the Gilbert, buy they removed it completely from their completed auction searches (unless my watch list malfunctioned). It never existed.

[asoriano]

Anybody have the link?

[atx840]

Back scan from the board, eBay had a much lower version.

[Mikehealer]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Nah you should wait till it's listed in the BST for 2-3hrs during a work week, if you guess Steve's fav beer he may throw in a few extras from the old lady.

John

OK, I'll say Shiner Bock? If that's not it, it's only because you haven't tried it.

[Ladder7]

Cant do those fancy micro brews Mike. My gut is too set in it's way

[GoldenAge50s]

Wonder what ever happened to that huge barrel & High Life gal up top?

[mrvster]

I don't feel so fresh!

[White Borders]

Here's my wet sheet transfer of an SC350-460 for comparison:

[Abravefan11]

Here's another example that shows the transfer happened in storage and not during the printing process.

1) If this would have been caused by a wet sheet transfer the offset is great enough that a second Sweet Cap design should be visible.

2) Like the card that Iggy posted the white border toning shows exactly how the single card and not a sheet was laying on top of the other for a long long time.

[iggyman]

Here are two wet sheet transfers similar to the T206 Ritchey in Tim's post...

emilyvideo 150.jpg

Pound for pound, the Goudey set has the most cards with wet sheet transfers...

emilyvideo 154.jpg

Beater E91-C American Caramel with a wet sheet transfer, can you guess the player? Okay, wrong game for this set...

emilyvideo 151.jpg

And finally, a piece of scrapbook paper which once was holding a T206 card (both front and back or back and front(?)). As you can see, the back clearly transferred onto the paper without the help of a print press operator. Discuss...

emilyvideo 158.jpgemilyvideo 156.jpg

Lovely Day...

[atx840]

Originally Posted by iggyman

That is one rare 649 OP

[Blunder19]

has anyone seen a transfer like this? With the name making it onto the back? I have never seen one of these before this card... wondering if there are others out there like it..

[steve B]

I love that scrapbook paper! I've got to think it transfered over time, or because of the glue used.

To cover a few points raised.

Leon- the Meusel with the complete transfer of the front is probably a transfer. For me a tough call being black ink, but it's a strong enough transfer I'd say yes.

I didn't mean to say that all black transfers happened after production, just that I've become less enthused by them after having a black stamp printed in the 1880's leave a pretty solid transfer on another in the mail between England and here.

Mrvster - I don't quite get what you're calling me out on.

Anyway, any printing error/variation/anomaly absolutely should be taken card by card. And that examinaton should be done with an understanding of the printing process and materials used. And unless you specialize that means understanding multiple processes. Leons Meusel was probably not lithographed. I'd have to see it or another from the same set to be sure, but one of the typography processes would be a safe bet. The black mark on the left is the initial clue.

The Chance is very impressive, and obviously all factory. It's a wonderful example of a card from a sheet used to make the initial adjustments to the press.

For each color pass the plate for that color needs to be put into place, and a few sheets run to adjust the alignment of the plate and registration with other colors or other sides and to make sure the ink and water are flowing evenly. As you can see from the Chance and Leons multi back, they'll use up just about any sheet of the right size and weight paper. So the Chance is most likely among the first 5-10 cycle backs printed. And I could probably make a good argument for it being from the first sheet.

I've collected printing errors in general since roughly 1980, most of the ones I have are more modern as I've always been on a tight budget. I've found examples of nearly all the problems that can happen in production. There's a few I haven't been able to buy (1972 topps printed with the back on the front and front on the back of the cardboard) And a few that I haven't seen an example of. And I'm always learning new things and adjusting my thoughts on some others.

And I'll show you a real puzzler. I think the price is a bit high, but this Cobb has a red transfer from something. The odd thing is I've looked through the gallery and can't find a T206 that matches the red shadow. Scrap? Transfer from some other set? transfer from an unlisted card?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEWAX:IT

I'll start the experiments on the beater. First up, just plain pressure. I can get to probably a couple tons in the home shop, maybe a touch more. For much more than that I'd have to call in a favor from one oft he shops I know. After that Alcohol, then solvents.

Steve B

[Anthony S.]

Originally Posted by steve B

Mrvster - I don't quite get what you're calling me out on.
Steve B

Johnny was calling out the other Steve because he thought that he had ended a desirable Ebay auction early (The Gilbert ghost card). But it turned out that Ebay (not Steve) had pulled the auction because all decisions at Ebay are made by a 6 month old Golden Retriever named Binky.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by steve B

Leon- the Meusel with the complete transfer of the front is probably a transfer. For me a tough call being black ink, but it's a strong enough transfer I'd say yes.

I didn't mean to say that all black transfers happened after production, just that I've become less enthused by them after having a black stamp printed in the 1880's leave a pretty solid transfer on another in the mail between England and here.


Steve B

Thanks Steve....as you can see (but you really have to look), there is faint printing of a back, on the front, right around his name. What do you make of that? And we all really do appreciate your expertise and your sharing of knowledge. best regards

[steve B]

Interesting. Usually there's enough time between printing fronts and backs that that wouldn't be common. It would make me think it all happened in production, especially if they ran heavy on the ink. Another indication that it was one of the more typograpghed printing formats. I'm less familiar with those, enough to tell the difference between some types and to tell typography apart from lithography and engraving. It doesn't matter much for cards but with stamps it can be a very big difference. (On one particular one it's a difference between flat plate engraving and rotary press engraving. Less than a millimeter, and the difference is between another stamp for the junk box and paying off the house)

Steve B

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Anthony S.

Johnny was calling out the other Steve because he thought that he had ended a desirable Ebay auction early (The Gilbert ghost card). But it turned out that Ebay (not Steve) had pulled the auction because all decisions at Ebay are made by a 6 month old Golden Retriever named Binky.

Thanks Anthony. Confusion gone.

Steve B