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  #1  
Old 01-15-2003, 08:16 PM
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Default The T207 Printing Process

Posted By: Geoffrey Litwack

Does anyone know about the printing methods by which the T207s were produced? Were they engraved? Was the text on the back typeset by hand? I nosed around the wonderful cycleback.com for info, but to no avail.

This set could be my next big project. I've been a pre-WWII collector, and would like to now give a pre-WWI set a try. Before I plunge in, I want to learn everything I can, starting from the beginning. Just in the couple of months I've been reading this forum, I believe I've soaked up a lot of knowledge - so thank you to everyone!

Geoffrey

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  #2  
Old 01-15-2003, 08:27 PM
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Default The T207 Printing Process

Posted By: Hankron

I haven't owned a single T207 in years (I hear Bob has them all), but they are lithographs, likely made in the same essential way as the T206s-- though obvioiusly with a different color choice. Presumably, the text on the back was typeset.

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  #3  
Old 01-15-2003, 08:36 PM
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Default The T207 Printing Process

Posted By: runscott

Can legitimate ones ever be found without the cracking?

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  #4  
Old 01-15-2003, 08:43 PM
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Default The T207 Printing Process

Posted By: Hankron

During this period, most of the tobacco card and similarly colorful candy cards (E95, Tango Eggs,etc) were lithographs. The Cracker Jacks, Exhibit Cards and most of the newspaper/magazine cards (Sporting News, Sporting Life, etc) were photoengravings. Lithography and photoengraving were competing commercial printing processes/technolgies-- like Interet Explorer versus Netscape, or Ford versus Chevrolet. Back then, they each had about equal market share and had the corner in different areas (tobacco products = lithography, publishing = photoengraving). Photoengraving died out commercially years ago, but lithography is still used. Almost all of today's trading cards are made with lithography, though in a different form then circa 1910.

So, if you see an old tobacco or candy card that looks similar to a T206, it's safe to call it a lithograph. If you see an old card or premium issued by a newspaper or magazine, it's safe to call it a photoengraving.

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  #5  
Old 01-15-2003, 08:45 PM
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Default The T207 Printing Process

Posted By: Bill Cornell

David-

If T207's are lithographs, where are the original photos they were based on? I've never seen a single one.

As points of comparison:

- many T205's are lithographs from Paul Thompson photos (some of these can be seen in Donald Honig's Classic Baseball Photographs: 1869-1947)
- many T206's are lithographs based on Carl Horner photos (Plank and Wagner are the most obvious examples)

My contention is that T207's are not lithographs, but instead are "real" paintings (for lack of a better word). As far as I know, no one has ever cited a photo any of the cards were based on.

And, TBob's effort to the contrary, this is not a set any sane person should go after... Good luck in any case, Geoffrey.

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  #6  
Old 01-15-2003, 08:49 PM
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Default The T207 Printing Process

Posted By: Hankron

I think I caught my error, as, I beleive, Ford issued Chevy-- but, you should get jist of the analogy anyway.

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  #7  
Old 01-15-2003, 08:49 PM
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Default The T207 Printing Process

Posted By: Geoffrey Litwack

Thanks for the info. I've been doing a little research, and all the work that went into those little cards is really quite amazing.

Geoffrey

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  #8  
Old 01-15-2003, 09:02 PM
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Default The T207 Printing Process

Posted By: Hankron

The T207s, which definetely have a painting/artistic quality, may have been based on actual paintings. As was discussed in an earlier thread, many of the T206s images were reproductions of embellished/colored photographs while some may have been based on color sketches (perhaps, the artist using a photograph as an basis for the sketch). Anyone looking at a the E106 Ty Cobb knows that the original art was no photograph.

In this type of lithography, the technology used was the same, but the original art (whether painting, sketch or real photograph) could differ-- thus the difference in appearance between a T206 Head Shot and a E106 Ty Cobb It's kind of like the 1950s Topps. The printing technology was the same, but the original art differed. The images on the 1953 Topps cards were reproductions on actual paintings that Topps commisioned (many which still exist), while the 1957 Topps were reproductions of photographs (many of the original negatives still exist). And the 1958 Topps, with it's photographic image of a player surrounded by solid color, is a reproduction of a painted phtograph.

It's kind of like using your scanner. If you scan a photograph, you will get digital image that looks like a photograph. If you scan a painting, you will get a digital image that looks like a painting. The technology is the same (in fact you used the exact same scanner), but you were reproducting two different items.

So, it's very much possible that the T207s were based on original paintings that the tobacco company commisioned.

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  #9  
Old 01-15-2003, 09:06 PM
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Default The T207 Printing Process

Posted By: Hankron

Also, I'm not claiming that the E106, T207 and T206 were made using the exact same techniques down to the tiniest detail. I'm just saying that they used the same period technology. It was possible the T207s, T206s and T205s were all printed by the same printer.

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  #10  
Old 01-15-2003, 09:26 PM
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Default The T207 Printing Process

Posted By: Hankron

One other point then, then I promise I'll be quiet. It is possible, though less likely, that the T207s were 'handmade lithographs.' This would mean that the image was drawn by the artist (using special lithographic tools) directly onto the printing, then these handrawn plates were used for the printing. This is the way famous artists like Picasso and Chagall made orignal plates. It's also the way the Allen & Ginter cards were made. Still, this would been the basic period lithography, but using a different technique to create the image.

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  #11  
Old 01-15-2003, 09:43 PM
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Default The T207 Printing Process

Posted By: Hankron

Just so you all know, Elliot corrected my history of cars off board.

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  #12  
Old 01-15-2003, 10:25 PM
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Default The T207 Printing Process

Posted By: ty_cobb

On the T207s and T213s I've handled the
card front has a lacquer type finish. I have
a T207 Clarke (which I believe to be from a
b&w photo) with the typical crazing or cracking
to the finish. It is possible for the lacquer to
craze fairly early after manufacture. On the other
hand I have a T213 Gandil, with the same type of
finish, with no cracking.

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  #13  
Old 01-15-2003, 10:26 PM
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Default The T207 Printing Process

Posted By: Kenny Cole

It has been said before, but it bears repeating - - no sane person starts collecting T207s in hopes of completing the set. It is simply an exercise in pain. I would hate to see anyone who wants to start on pre-WWI cards start on that set because it is so discouraging. Pick almost any other set (except E107s) and your satisfaction level will probably increase tenfold. T207s are a bitch.

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  #14  
Old 01-15-2003, 11:17 PM
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Default The T207 Printing Process

Posted By: ty_cobb

Rare back combos like Red Cross, red Cycle, and Broadleaf
are really what interest me about this set. The set
adds some depth to the T206 issue, I like the idea of added
players like Buck Weaver or rarities like Saier. The set
has a lot to offer the type card collector. But as a set
it uses more sketches than the others (there's certainly
less photographic evidence than for the T205 and T206 sets) ,
and the lack of talent means buying Lowdermilk/Lewis instead of star players.

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  #15  
Old 01-15-2003, 11:37 PM
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Default The T207 Printing Process

Posted By: Geoffrey Litwack

Kenny: I know it's a tough set, but that's fine by me. If not as much stuff is on the market at one time, I can spread out my spending. I find the look of the 207s to be my favorite of all the pre-Great War sets...late Victorian, baby!

ty_cobb: I know what you mean about spending money on Lowdermilk instead of, well, Cobb, but I think I'm okay with it. For some reason I can't get myself excited about the back variations, so insofar as it's possible, I'll probably shoot for Recruit backs.

Geoffrey

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  #16  
Old 01-16-2003, 03:31 AM
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Default The T207 Printing Process

Posted By: Jay behrens

Yeah, don't waste your time on this set. You should instead go after the the next one in the ACC, t208s. Only 18 cards in that set.

Jay- you think a t207 set is tough to complete?

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  #17  
Old 01-16-2003, 08:22 AM
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Default The T207 Printing Process

Posted By: runscott

...so I can start working on mine.

Actually, I don't like the T207 set much, but it's purely a matter of taste - they have such a unique look that there are bound to be collectors who love them. Some of the cards look really great, like the McGraw, but others, like Walter Johnson...who came up with that image?

I would recommend some of the smaller caramel sets if you are interested in trying to complete a set. The only set I've ever completed was the e95's and it was a lot of fun - I met a lot of collectors through that endeavor and made a lot of trades.

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  #18  
Old 01-16-2003, 08:12 PM
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Default The T207 Printing Process

Posted By: TBob

Ward Miller where are you? A decent G/VG which wouldn't break the bank and possessing eye appeal would do it.
Jeff sent me a copy of an article, a two parter written some years back by Keith Olbermann, which explains the mystique and allure of the T207 set. Keith stated that the T207 set, unlike any other tobacco card set, is not a challenge, it is an obsession.
You have to be a little wacky to try and complete it Geoffrey but it can be done. I remember seeing a T207 set in a Mastro catalogue about a year ago in which Bill stated that it would be impossible in this day and age to put together a set from scratch. I guess that was my challenge. It has taken 3 years but I am about there. I lucked in to 6-7 of the toughies which I haven't seen available since. This is a set in which you will pay more for the cards (and I bought them all one at a time) than the set is probably worth, but I have noticed an upswing in the individual card price and an upswing in the set price too. I think its a helluva investment for the future because of its scarcity.
Geoffrey, you mention just collecting Recruit backs. If you do that you will be without roughly 53 of the 60 most valuable cards. Only Speaker, Wood, Johnson, Hooper, Livingston A, Livingston Large C and McKechnie are high priced cards without the rare backs. Wood and Hooper should take a major jump in the guides next year as they are scarce as hen's teeth, despite their common backs.

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  #19  
Old 01-17-2003, 09:42 AM
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Default The T207 Printing Process

Posted By: Thomas

Hello TBob,

I was wondering if you could post on the board(or send it in an email) that article you mentioned in your post about the T207's. I would be interested in reading it. Thanks.
Incidentally I have 55 T207's...only what about 153 to go. I've got at least once example of each back type with the exception of the Red Cross type. I have a good chunk of the HOFers but not too many of the scarce cards.

Take care,
Thomas

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  #20  
Old 01-17-2003, 11:25 AM
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Default The T207 Printing Process

Posted By: runscott

three Reulbachs and one Rucker.

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  #21  
Old 01-17-2003, 01:01 PM
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Default The T207 Printing Process

Posted By: jay behrens

I have more t209 Contentneas than t207s now (5-4).

Jay

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  #22  
Old 01-17-2003, 02:06 PM
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Default The T207 Printing Process

Posted By: runscott

...how many cards are there total, and how many have you found?

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