Implications of "cleaning up the hobby?"

[ullmandds]

We all bitch(atleast some of us do...)...about the corruption in the hobby...the deceptive bidding practices of auction houses/ebay...the alteration of cards...the perceived inconsistency of TPGrading services.

And many of us long for a "cleaning up of the hobby"...I know I do!

What would be potential implications on our collections as a result of a "cleaning up of the hobby?"

Would our collections become worth less...more? Would more people enter the hobby? Would people leave?

Please discuss!

[g_vezina_c55]

Probably more new people in the hobby ... more people interrested into high grade card...

I personnaly never collected high grade card because of the price and i always be sceptic about 100 years old card graded 7 8 or 9 .... Always too nervous to enter into the high grade world.

Collection be worth less... not sure.. For me no beacause i don t have high grade card... i collect only VG, VG-EX card ...

But i have no idea of how the cleaning can be made.
Thanks

[vintagetoppsguy]

I think it would draw collectors into (or back into) the hobby. I think it would also increase the value of our cards as the demand would exceed the supply.

[ullmandds]

So you'd think more people would enter the hobby because it would be perceived as "safer"...so would this add more competition for quality pieces hence driving up prices? IF so...then auction houses wouldn't have to "cheat" and "steal" from us...as they'd be making more $$$ themselves as a result of being honest...hmmm...novel idea?

[rainier2004]

Are we assuming that there would be legal preceding's, jail sentences, closing of a couple AH's? I am assuming there are more doings out there that just Mastro and the others indicted.

Those cards that were heavily shilled seems like they would realize a new price, I would assume lower. I could see the attention brought from legal issues scarring people away. I could see it attract others with a sense of security.

[ullmandds]

I would have to assume a "cleaning" up of the hobby would result in a dramatic change of the existing landscape...people doing jail time...paying heavy fines...potentially a change in the existing grading companies...maybe bring new players in all categories.

[the-illini]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I would have to assume a "cleaning" up of the hobby would result in a dramatic change of the existing landscape...people doing jail time...paying heavy fines...potentially a change in the existing grading companies...maybe bring new players in all categories.

I just don't see all of that happening - it took the biggest card in the hobby to get Mastro, and the results of that aren't going to clean up things across the board.

A lot more people would have to go down to significantly affect change like you describe above, and that is going to be very hard to prove IMO.

[ullmandds]

c'mon chris...this is hypothetical!

[jhs5120]

Prices would plummet and casual collectors would exit the hobby if we experienced a "clensing period" across the board. As much as I hate to admit it, I think the fraudsters, the scandals, the jerks, the AH's, the shill bidding and the forgers all play a necessary role in our delicate ecosystem.

[ullmandds]

It IS a delicate ecosystem...this hobby...isn't it!!!!!

I'm starting to feel like that dude who used to be on here who was eventually limited to 10 posts/day...responding to everyones' posts!!!!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

It IS a delicate ecosystem...this hobby...isn't it!!!!!

I'm starting to feel like that dude who used to be on here who was eventually limited to 10 posts/day...responding to everyones' posts!!!!

Don't worry about it Pete. You will never catch me and probably not Barry either, as far as number of posts go.
As for cleansing the hobby.... It would be great and I think it is better today than it has been in the last 10-15 yrs. Status quo though regardless of cleansing or not, imo...

[barrysloate]

I don't think I will stay in second place for long....don't post as much as I used to.

[the 'stache]

It took me forever to jump into the pre-war and vintage eras for this very reason. If I was going to be spending a good chunk of change on really old cardboard, I wanted to make sure that I knew what I was doing, that I was equipped to buy safely. Without this place, and the help I've received from all of you, I honestly don't know if I would have ever done it. And that's really a shame, because even though I've just really started, I'm having a blast.

Pete, I know this is a hypothetical, so I'll just say that I'd love to see some of the bad element removed from the hobby, but at the same time, I know now that if I exercise due diligence, and buy from reputable sellers, my chances of getting burned drops dramatically. Then, when I receive my cards, I always give them a good looking over. So, in being proactive, I'm avoiding a lot of the people that would try to scam me, or other enthusiasts.

Would the value of the cards I have and will buy drop? Maybe. I actually think that if the market were cleansed you'd see more people come back, and demand would go up. Maybe I wouldn't be able to get the cards I want at all. Imagine how many other people out there who love baseball cards would love to own a Ty Cobb, or a Walter Johnson tobacco card. It's possible you'd see people leave again for a very different reason: not enough supply to meet demand.

It is indeed a very delicate balance. I wish I could tell some of the people that would love to jump into pre-war and vintage to come here, and learn, but at the same time, I realize that in doing so, there would be more people wanting to buy the same cards I want.

[cincyredlegs]

Great topic. Let's compare the evils of the hobby today vs the late 80's/early 90's:

Common

People trimmed cards
People re-colored cards
People counterfeited cards
People pressed out creases
People re-built corners
People were un-ethical
People cheated people


Different

The value of cards

I guess what I am saying is that there always have been this element in the hobby and probably always will be. The main difference I see is the value of the cards have increased exponentially and people have more to lose.

This doesn't mean we shouldn't do everything we can to try and clean the hobby.

Mark

[HRBAKER]

Cleaning up the hobby would involve denying yourself that which you want. That's where the first breakdown occurs.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Cleaning up the hobby would involve denying yourself that which you want. That's where the first breakdown occurs.

Only if you have nearly unlimited play money.

Those of us with tighter budgets are always denying ourselves the stuff we want. So no big change there.


Totally clearing house would be impossible.

I do think there's less smalltime fraud now than before. Mostly because knowledge is easier to come by. The days of people trying to pass off Dover reprints as original at a show are hopefully gone.

I do think that without TPG a lot of the money will leave. The more investment driven, or those with money but not necessarily the time to learn what's good or not probably wouldn't spend without the third party opinion.

And ultimately things would revert to the early-mid 80's. Some cards wouldn't become available without the higher prices. It's one thing to keep an odd family heirloom even if you're not all that interested. It's a far different thing to do that when that money could pay for a car, house, or college.

Would the Black Swamp cards be on the market if they were worth $2 each instead of a few thousand each?
Would the Nagurskis just found be on the market if they were $10 cards?

Probably not.

The internet has changed things so much it's hard to describe.
Maybe this.
As a fairly casual collector the number of tougher T206 backs I had chances to buy between 1977 and maybe 1994
Drum 1
Uzit 0
Broadleaf 460 0
Red Hindu 0

That's all I saw back then. Granted I only went to local shows, although we had some big ones. And didn't really look all that hard. But I just didn't see any.

Since roughly 1998 when I joined Ebay.
Drum 5-6?
Uzit 5-6? Maybe more
Broadleaf 460 2?
Red Hindu Quite a few with the recent batch in a big auction, which I usually didn't even look at till recently.

The money makes getting the cards tougher for many of us. But it also makes it possible for more of us.

Unfortunately it also brings the bad guys.

Steve B

[buymycards]

A good start would be to clean up eBay. If eBay would get rid of all of the fakes it would help a lot. But that will never happen. Ebay makes just as much money from the counterfeit listings as they do on an authentic listing so why would they want to get rid of 30% of the listings in the pre-war section?

[autocut]

Integrity and greed are a huge issue in the hobby. To dump money into speculation is a big gamble. Even graders could be wrong.

[Bocabirdman]

Originally Posted by steve B

Unfortunately it also brings the bad guys.

Steve B

When I first graduated from merely collecting cards each summer to pursuing vintage and beyond back in the late Sixties/early Seventies, my collecting universe consisted of one collector in my home town and a half dozen additional guys around my area. Where there more? Most certainly. Unfortunately, there was no network for communication. This weeded out the casual collector as the activity was sparse and intermittent. It also made collecting a lot tougher for those of us that hung in there.

As the Seventies rolled along, mail order catalogs became part of the landscape. This extended the collector's reach and connected the hobby community a bit more. However, it also attracted mail fraud "jackasses". They could reach enough like-minded people to make it worth their while trawling for innocents. Around the same time, Card Shows came to pass, further solidifying the hobby. 99.9% of the vendors were upstanding guys, most collectors themselves. Again, sadly, the "jackasses" saw this as an opportunity to fleece the innocent. Fakes, trimming, de-creasing and corner reconstruction all found their way into our world. This is when I personally stepped away from the hobby, frustrated.

I watched from the outside as the hobby "hit the big time" and eleventy-two card companies flooded the market place with cards that promised to be an investment opportunity. Citing the values of vintage cards, they postulated that, obviously, their cards would grow in value and the same pace. Gimmicky sparkly cards, intentional short prints, and endless variations led me to believe that the "jackasses" had gone corporate, fleecing the innocent again.

The internet came to be, teethed, learned to walk and grew to what we have today. I took the opportunity to re-enter the hobby. It is the best of times. It is the worst of times. Our collector universe is immense. We communicate and deal with guys all around the country (world). My last five eBay transactions were we fellas in NJ, WI, MI, VA and WA. This many like-minded hobbyists available and the touch of a keyboard is fantastic. Ah, but the "jackasses"....... I have no concept of the monies exchanged on a daily or weekly basis in this hobby but we have certainly have reached the magic number. The pool of collector's cash has attracted not only the low tech "jackasses" but "jackasses" with the finances and technology to screw with us non-stop. The same internet that brought us together as a group of collectors has served as a "barrel" for the "jackasses " to shoot fish in. Fishing must be good. They are here to stay.

Net 54 acts as a safe place for us to circle the wagons and "pick off" the occasional "jackass". For that, Leon, I will voice the group opinion and say "Thank You". Without a site like this, many more "jackasses" would thrive. OK, I am done..........

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Cleaning up the hobby would involve denying yourself that which you want. That's where the first breakdown occurs.

I want to echo this view. People are very quick to complain about the fraud in the hobby, but when asked to refrain from giving business to those they accuse of fraud, refuse to do so. To paraphrase what one poster once send, "getting the stuff trumps all." It seems to me that a very effective way to reduce hobby fraud is to put out of business those who engage in it, which can only happen if people stop doing business with them. It would also send a clear signal to anyone else who might be considering in engaging in such activity that fraud is not a good business model.

What I will be curious to see is if, hypothetically, stuff starts to get out exposing fraud at particular AHs, will people stop doing business with them? If not, then for those people who continue to do business with these AHs, IMO they have no credibility to complain about fraud in the hobby.

[ullmandds]

This thread was meant to stimulate dialogue...nothing more!

I don't see an exodus of large enough magnitude away from those practicing corruption in the hobby to make a significant enough difference...sadly.

Stuff trumps all...I am guilty as anyone in this regard.

[steve B]

Stuff trumps all for some, and trumps something for just about everyone.

I don't think you could find an auction house that's been around for any length of time that has never done anything remotely improper. Most probably don't engage in flat out fraud, but there are enough situations where there's some gray area that nearly all have done something.

I try to take the high road as much as possible. But there are times when things have not worked out that way.

A couple live auctions I've been to -
One a regular auction I went to fairly often the auctioneer hated left bids. And would often disclose the left bid maximum if bidding got close. Especially on large items like furniture. Bedroom set? Geez, I hate left bids left bid is $100, any advance? A few items with left bids sold for the left bid maximum.
Not right, but considering the nuisance of loading up a roomful of furniture and taking it back to his small shop until the winner could come get it, probably requiring help loading it, he probably still lost most of his profit. (10-15% bp, so he was making a whole $15 to do the extra lugging.) But he also stopped an item to warn two front row bidders about open collusion. One offered to back off if the other guy backed off another lot. Yes, it's done all the time, but yes, it's technically as illegal as shilling, and really shouldn't be done a few feet from the auctioneer.

Another - and here's a mild confession- Coin auction in the 80's. I had a few things I wanted and knew what to pay. But was being outbid on all of them. Finally overheard a dealer a couple rows in front of me brag about how "the kid hasn't been able to buy anything. Don't know what I'll do with the stuff be he won't get it." He also mentioned that he needed a certain half dollar for a customer. I moved seats and bid it up past retail. The look on his face when the kid congratulated him on his "great buy" as he was wondering aloud just why it had sold for so much was priceless. Then I asked how much he "needed" the other couple coins he'd talked about. ...........No more buying stuff just to keep the kid for getting it. Yeah, it was wrong. But I'm still on the fence whether it was really all that out of line.

I've been offered stuff I was one bid short of after an auction a couple times. Nice offer, but I always declined. It just didn't seem fair. It helped that I'd also spent most of the money I'd planned for that item on second choice stuff that went after it.

And I think most auctions that have been around a while have been stuck with fakes or stuff where the ownership becomes questionable.


So stuff happens all the time, some of it not entirely proper. It comes down to a matter of how often does it happen, and how do they handle it.

Steve B

[Exhibitman]

There's always been crap going on but as the money increased so did the level of it. Bid fixing and auction manipulation is old-hat and widespread. Collusion between Sotheby's and Christie's on commissions for art consignments resulted in prison terms for the Sotheby's chair and a $512 million class action settlement for defrauded consignors.

I agree with some of the other posts that it has to start with individual decisions not to deal with crooks. The problem, of course, is that 90% success in a bidder boycott only results in fewer bidders, not no bidders, which only hurts the consignors and puts great deals into the hands of the remaining bidders who don't care about the ethics of the auctioneer and who will then flip for a profit. Take Legendary as an example. Two of the principals are under indictment for fraudulent acts in connection with auctions they ran at Mastro. Does anyone here believe that Legendary will suddenly not sell items at their next auction? If so, I have a bridge in Brooklyn you can pick up too.

As for 'stuff trumps all', well that is not entirely true--I've stopped bidding on one AH's stuff because they deal in Nazi paraphernalia including concentration camp 'souvenirs' and I find that too disturbing to stomach--but it sure trumps a lot. I am in the same boat as many collectors here: I love to collect but the only way I can afford to expand my collection is by strategically selling or trading stuff. To return to my example, I will continue to review Legendary's catalogs and bid with Legendary despite the indictments of two of the principals, if I think I can profit from it and actually get my cards. I believe the same is true of enough collectors that there is no realistic possibility of a bidder boycott working.

Now, a consignor boycott might have some teeth. I know I won't send anything to Legendary because I've heard horror stories of what happened when Mastro went under w/r/t consignors getting their stuff back and getting paid, and I would not want to risk losing my items/not get paid should a similar fate befall Legendary if Doug and Mark are convicted or plead guilty. That's really more self-preservation than ethics at work, though if the twain meet, the result would be the same.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

There's always been crap going on but as the money increased so did the level of it. Bid fixing and auction manipulation is old-hat and widespread. Collusion between Sotheby's and Christie's on commissions for art consignments resulted in prison terms for the Sotheby's chair and a $512 million class action settlement for defrauded consignors.

I agree with some of the other posts that it has to start with individual decisions not to deal with crooks. The problem, of course, is that 90% success in a bidder boycott only results in fewer bidders, not no bidders, which only hurts the consignors and puts great deals into the hands of the remaining bidders who don't care about the ethics of the auctioneer and who will then flip for a profit. Take Legendary as an example. Two of the principals are under indictment for fraudulent acts in connection with auctions they ran at Mastro. Does anyone here believe that Legendary will suddenly not sell items at their next auction? If so, I have a bridge in Brooklyn you can pick up too.

As for 'stuff trumps all', well that is not entirely true--I've stopped bidding on one AH's stuff because they deal in Nazi paraphernalia including concentration camp 'souvenirs' and I find that too disturbing to stomach--but it sure trumps a lot. I am in the same boat as many collectors here: I love to collect but the only way I can afford to expand my collection is by strategically selling or trading stuff. To return to my example, I will continue to review Legendary's catalogs and bid with Legendary despite the indictments of two of the principals, if I think I can profit from it and actually get my cards. I believe the same is true of enough collectors that there is no realistic possibility of a bidder boycott working.

Now, a consignor boycott might have some teeth. I know I won't send anything to Legendary because I've heard horror stories of what happened when Mastro went under w/r/t consignors getting their stuff back and getting paid, and I would not want to risk losing my items/not get paid should a similar fate befall Legendary if Doug and Mark are convicted or plead guilty. That's really more self-preservation than ethics at work, though if the twain meet, the result would be the same.

I'm not sure I agree with you that anything less than a complete bidder boycott would not have the desired impact on the AH. It seems to me that if a significant number of bidders stopped bidding at a crooked AH, potential consignors would take notice of the poor realized prices and take their business elsewhere. They likely will have heard the accusations about the questionable practices of the AH and reasonably wonder how a consignment to the AH would get the widest universe of bidders if a bidder boycott might be underway. So, when you start to look past the short term of the impact of a bidder boycott, it would have a significant impact on the AH.

[ScottFandango]

just consign and bid with B&L

[Bocabirdman]

Originally Posted by ScottFandango

just consign and bid with B&L

Only if you are feelin' Luckey

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

It seems to me that if a significant number of bidders stopped bidding at a crooked AH, potential consignors would take notice of the poor realized prices and take their business elsewhere.

Its not the quantity, its the quality. I would think if a small pool of large spenders did not bid, the impact would then be felt...

I agree with Adam, if larger consignors boycotted, I think we'd see an immediate impact.