SGC no cert. lookup

[Peter_Spaeth]

I am told the rationale is to protect submitters (if someone sells one card from an invoice, people can't look up the others) but this does not seem very compelling to me. You can essentially do the same with PSA's cert lookup using sequential serial numbers and no harm seems to have been done. Does anyone know when the feature was removed from the website?

[botn]

Think it was something that Dave Forman decided to do back in early 07 at the time they made changes to the site. I thought Dave himself or someone from SGC made a post about the changes. I will see if I can find it.

[srs1a]

I don't believe that you were ever able to do a cert verification on SGC's website. There is a back-door path, though. Simply make a "The Way I Collect" set and add the cert #'s to the set -- it will tell you the cards and their grades.

[Al C.risafulli]

no harm seems to have been done

That's a joke, right?

For the record, Greg, my company redesigned SGC's website in mid 2005, and again in early 2008. When we redesigned it in 2005, there was no cert number lookup feature, and I was told there never had been one.

I think the cert number lookup feature is one of the serious problems in this hobby.

-Al

[Peter_Spaeth]

Al, please elaborate. It certainly wasn't on my radar screen as a problem, quite to the contrary, I am troubled by lack of transparency (in many respects not just cert. lookup) because among other things it faciliates card doctors. We don't know who submitted the cards we buy in most cases, and we don't know who consigned them. I for one like to know if a whole bunch of surrounding certs were rejected.

[Al C.risafulli]

Peter, my feeling is and always has been that the cert number lookup has the potential to do far more damage than good.

The initial purpose of the cert number lookup feature was to check and see if a cert number was authentic, and matched the card and grade you were looking at, as an added measure of security for a buyer. Many people, however, used it as a way of scrutinizing invoices and "outing" card doctors or "bad" submissions, particularly on message boards. That's not what the feature was designed for, and using it that way tells you absolutely nothing.

Clearly there have been examples where you look at the 10 cert numbers above and below a card, and they're all rejected for trimming, and you just know the card you're looking at is trimmed as well (and you're left wondering how the hell that one card wasn't rejected outright).

More often, though, I've seen that cert number lookup feature used - on message boards - to question the reputation of a seller. You know, "Look at this card he's selling, and tell me why four of the cards surrounding it were rejected for trimming."

Never mind that there's no way of knowing if the seller and submitter are one in the same, or if the submitter purchased the cards raw from a card doctor (or some other source for trimmed/undersized cards, like the unopened vending box I bought once that had half a dozen cards rejected for trimming on the same invoice, then accepted and graded on a subsequent submission).

I've also seen people call out individual cards on message boards for the simple "crime" of having a single prewar card surrounded by modern cards on the same invoice. As ridiculous as that sounds.

The idea that I could buy a lot of raw cards, submit them to PSA and have a bunch of them rejected for trimming, and subsequently be outed as a card doctor on a message board because someone scrutinized my invoice always bugged the hell out of me.

So when you state that no harm has been done, I disagree. I think the cert number lookup feature created a whole bunch of armchair detectives, looking to scrutinize every invoice from certain sellers.

Furthermore, what happens if I purchase, say, a T206 Wagner and cross it to PSA, along with a bunch of other cards? If I were to sell a card from that invoice, a cert number lookup feature would enable someone to draw the reasonable conclusion that I own a T206 Wagner - something I may prefer to keep under wraps.

I am sure that both PSA and SGC would, with a phone call, tell you if the cert number in question was authentic. So you still have the ability to obtain the information that the lookup feature was intended to give you. What you DON'T have any longer is the ability to scrutinize entire invoices - and I'm pretty pleased with that added measure of privacy.

-Al

[egbeachley]

It would be simple and effective if you could verify a cert number by entering it with the set and grade and get a "Yes" or "No".

Enter Cert # 123456789
Enter Set: T206
Enter Grade: 50

Answer: Yes, it is a valid combination

[teetwoohsix]

You made a lot of good points Al,and at the very end of your post you answered the question I had,which was-couldn't you just call SGC and have them check a cert# for you?Good thread Peter-knowledge is power.Regards,Clayton

[Peter_Spaeth]

Respectfully, in all the years I have been reading 54 I only recall one instance of someone questioning a seller based on surrounding cert numbers. And I believe in that case it was most likely justified based on other scan evidence provided. Maybe you are referring to CU, which I do not read.

While I of course understand your concerns, I find them outweighed by the problem that as I have posted before, the hobby is currently configured to protect card doctors. And please don't tell me card doctoring is not a huge problem, I am sure you agree that it is. Cert lookup is one of the few tools a potential buyer has against all the anonymity of submissions and consignments. I thought whichever board member created the tool for a quick 10 before and after cert search on PSA did a great thing.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Here is that tool again for anyone interested.

http://www.cardtarget.com/cgi-bin/psa_cert.cgi

[Al C.risafulli]

Peter, you know I agree that card doctoring - and fraud in general - is a huge problem in this hobby. It has been for a long time.

A cert number lookup, IMO, does nothing to tell you about the card that you're holding, except in rare instances.

I actually don't believe that the hobby is configured to protect card doctors. I believe that capable authentication companies protect consumers from far more fraud than we know. In my mind, the "old" hobby was designed to protect card doctors.

None of that changes the fact that fraud is a huge problem, though, we can definitely agree on that.

-Al

[Peter_Spaeth]

Al as you know I think they catch a lot but that a lot also gets through, for whatever reason, and we can speculate endlessly about that. I do know from personal experience and the experience of others that it is a very risky business to crack cards out of holders and resubmit them, and this applies to SGC and PSA too.

[Al C.risafulli]

Oh, I wouldn't crack it out.

I'd just send it to the grading company with a note that says "This card is surrounded by cert numbers that were rejected for trimming, which devalues the card. Please give it a new cert number."

I'm not sure what the answer is, aside from educating yourself, trusting the grader you choose (if you choose one), and buying from reputable sellers. But a cert number lookup is not on my radar of tools to help protect me, aside from using it for its intended purpose.

-Al

[Peter_Spaeth]

I also think that if auction houses identified their consignors, and all cards could be traced to their original submitter, many cards would sell for less. Thus my statement about the hobby being configured to protect card doctors. That is not to say it was not even worse before grading services.

[Matt]

Al - I'm not a fan of the argument to not give people a tool because some people out there misuse it. Certainly people misuse all sorts of information and draw wrong conclusions, but exposing the cert checker doesn't cause those things; irresponsible people do. Would you argue that the CU forums should be shut down because more people use them to pick fights, shill their own consignments and wrongly accuse people then use them for good? IMO I can chose not to go there because of those things and the users there can chose not to partake in those things, but removing the option altogether seems like something I'd do with my children, not a way to deal with adults.

[Al C.risafulli]

I understand your concern, but we're talking about ignoring the privacy of the overwhelming majority of good people in this hobby so that we can learn the identity of consignors/submitters who MAY be fraudsters, and who MAY be committing fraud.

I've seen multiple threads and had multiple conversations where one person or group of people thinks an individual engages in fraud, while another group disagrees.

More and more I'm starting to think that the answer is to identify the fraud - don't reject it, just holder it differently somehow. Create a market for it. The only question is whether there's too much stuff out there already, and I suspect the answer to that might be yes.

-Al

[Al C.risafulli]

Matt, my main concern is not that people use the tool incorrectly, it's that the tool itself, for the most part, tells you nothing about the card in question and simultaneously raises all sorts of privacy issues.

-Al

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Al C.risafulli

Matt, my main concern is not that people use the tool incorrectly, it's that the tool itself, for the most part, tells you nothing about the card in question and simultaneously raises all sorts of privacy issues.

-Al

I hear you - the tool does have some value, but it is minimal with the possibility of copied flips and cracked slabs.

[DavidW]

I would like to see an image of the card along with the cert number. That would eliminate substituting a fraud card.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by DavidW

I would like to see an image of the card along with the cert number. That would eliminate substituting a fraud card.

I would like to see an image of the submitter.

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I would like to see an image of the submitter.

One of their large volume submitters:

[botn]

Originally Posted by Al C.risafulli

A cert number lookup, IMO, does nothing to tell you about the card that you're holding, except in rare instances.

I actually don't believe that the hobby is configured to protect card doctors. I believe that capable authentication companies protect consumers from far more fraud than we know. In my mind, the "old" hobby was designed to protect card doctors.

Cert number look up offers transparency, which in my opinion is much needed. What privacy violation issues are there with knowing what cards were submitted with a card in question and what the results were of their examination? You make it sound like the the identity, address and banking info of the submitter would be revealed by performing this check. The hobby has a long way to go before collectors are truly protected. The grading companies, willfully or not, are not doing an adequate job of protecting collectors.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Greg, there is only so much the grading companies can do. They are not FBI crime labs, and while they certainly will catch blatant alterations most of the time, it's much less certain they will catch subtle alterations by individuals and firms highly sophisticated and skilled in paper restoration. I believe Dave Forman of SGC himself has publicly commented on the difficulty of detecting certain types of alterations, as did Daniel Desmond in the infamous VBCC 7. I think it's just a given that a certain percentage of altered cards are going to get through, which is why any tool in the collector's hands is better than none.

And unlike Al, I think it does add value to see if a card is surrounded by a high percentage of rejects. Is it conclusive, of course not, but it would certainly encourage me to think twice about buying the card.

[Basilone]

The cert # lookup feature has been used successfully in the past to identify questionable submissions..most notably those belonging to Mr. Susor. On balance, I like the cert # look up feature and the additional information it provides collectors.

Power to the people!

[Al C.risafulli]

Cert number look up offers transparency, which in my opinion is much needed. What privacy violation issues are there with knowing what cards were submitted with a card in question and what the results were of their examination?

I don't feel that it offers transparency at all. If the submitter's name were also revealed, then it would offer transparency - but I don't think that would be a realistic thing to ask for.

There's an individual who's name has been mentioned in this thread and others as a trimmer of cards. The evidence has been, in my opinion, pretty conclusive.

But let's say I buy a card from that individual, and subsequently resell it on eBay. Someone on a message board decides to search the cert numbers around the one I'm selling, and finds a disproportionate amount of trimmed cards. That person, not knowing where I bought the card, may very well implicate ME as a card doctor, since he/she has no idea whether or not I was the original submitter. All that person can do it look up the cert number and see what cards were around mine.

Realistically, that cert number lookup says absolutely nothing about me, about my own submissions, or about the cards I sell - but could hurt my reputation anyway.

-Al

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Al C.risafulli

But let's say I buy a card from that individual, and subsequently resell it on eBay. Someone on a message board decides to search the cert numbers around the one I'm selling, and finds a disproportionate amount of trimmed cards. That person, not knowing where I bought the card, may very well implicate ME as a card doctor, since he/she has no idea whether or not I was the original submitter. All that person can do it look up the cert number and see what cards were around mine.

Realistically, that cert number lookup says absolutely nothing about me, about my own submissions, or about the cards I sell - but could hurt my reputation anyway.

The fault there lies with the reckless conclusions of said person, not with the ability to check the cert #s. Say the card was trimmed and slipped by PSA - as a buyer it would be absolutely relevant to know that the previous and subsequent 5 had been rejected for trimming.

[Al C.risafulli]

But how would you know that my card was part of the same invoice as the previous 5? How would you know I didn't buy a large lot of raw cards that were trimmed, and submitted it with a large lot of raw cards that weren't? How would you know that I didn't submit a whole pile of crackouts from a grading service known for grading trimmed cards in hopes that some of them would grade, and a few actually did?

You would be able to see the cert numbers and the results, but none of the circumstances around the submittal.

I've had a few circumstances where a few of my submissions had an inordinate amount of cards rejected for trimming. Once I bought a vending box of modern cards, and a half dozen or so were rejected - all of them graded on a second submission. Another time, as suggested above, I bought a bunch of cards graded by a second-tier grading company in hopes of crossing them to PSA and playing the low-pop game. A bunch came back trimmed and a few graded. I'd hate to think I'd be judged based on those two submissions, but that's exactly the kind of thing that could happen with the cert number lookup.

I prefer to think that if we're going to embrace grading, we're going to embrace the grading company's ability to judge each card on its own merits and reject that bad ones. If we can't trust the grading companies to do this, then we shouldn't be embracing grading.

Just my opinion.

-Al

[botn]

Finding out that a particular card was surrounded by rejected cards in a cert check does not implicate the seller. It implicates the submitter and it informs the collector, whether or not he cares, that there is a good chance the card which graded may also be altered. Simply provides more information. Cards change hands frequently so it is entirely conceivable, even on this board, where people may actually not rush to judgment and possibly unfairly or prematurely accuse the seller as the card doctor.

[EvilKing00]

I know this is a very old thread, BUT i also feel that SGC should have a "look up" feature where you can type in the SN, and get a report on the card. Basicly with a pic of the card, the grade that was given, and if you would go further....Maybe ..lets say if it was an altard card, how it was altered. Mostly just to prove that the card that someone is looking to but is actually a true graded card. Its really sinple.

[steve B]

I can see both sides of this.

I like access to information, but I also like to think that I use that info responsibly. Not everyone can or will.

The point about someone being unjustly hit for submissions that show a lot of altered cards is valid,and there are some circumstance that haven't been mentioned where this could happen as well.

Lets say I find a nice stack of what look like nice T206s at an estate sale. If the price is low enough I'm not spending much time examining them before I commit to buy. (Hasn't happened yet, but I can always hope)
Then lets say I get home and take a good look at them deciding what to sell and what to keep. And I find that they're all a bit suspect for trimming. And I decide to sell all or most of them. But I think they'll do better graded so off they go. And all come back "A" except for a couple that were within spec but were small enough to fit the sheets the collector used do they didn't get a top or bottom trimming.
That's ok, at least now I'm sure, and I get the benefit of listing them honestly with no doubts. I'd have called them probably trimmed, and may have had some returns/questions. Now I know they're trimmed.

But someone who looks up the submission could say I trimmed them all but got lucky on a couple.
That's not so good, and helps nobody.

With SGCs numbers it may be possible to occasionally identify the submitter, and it's very easy to tell which ones were on the same submission.

Steve B