Legendary T-206 Honus Wagner

[e107collector]

I got email today showing some of the highlights of Legendary's Feb 2010 auction, but they don't show a picture of the Honus Wagner T-206.

They have a pic of the D322 PSA 5 Wagner, and PSA Authentic T-206 Plank, but they just mention the T-206 Wagner. Does anyone know the grade of the Wagner?

Thanks,
Tony

[Bosox Blair]

Probably already gone...sportscardtheory traded for it already...

Cheers,
Blair

[e107collector]

I contacted Legendary today, and I was told "We don't know what grade the Wagner T-206 is."

I'm not sure what to make of that comment. Thoughts?

Tony

[tothrk]

It's most likely still being restored or refurbished or manufactured or fixed or.....

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by e107collector

I contacted Legendary today, and I was told "We don't know what grade the Wagner T-206 is."

I'm not sure what to make of that comment. Thoughts?

Tony

So they've got a consignment for a Wagner but don't know what the grade is. Yeah, that's believable. Is there something in the water over there that makes it impossible to tell the truth?

[Leon]

Well, I haven't spoken with Doug since the National and they aren't an advertiser....so with that out of the way, is there a chance they have it being graded and don't know the grade? Also, if they sent it in, maybe they were told a grade they aren't comfortable with and are discussing it with another third party grader. Communication is key and they haven't always done that too well..... ....and I agree, the truth is so easy....

[bijoem]

Originally Posted by tothrk

It's most likely still being restored or refurbished or manufactured or fixed or.....

hahaha. why commit to a number now?

maybe, like the stock market, a real-time ticker is needed for the grades of cards in the auction.

you never know when a grade will tick up.

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by calvindog

So they've got a consignment for a Wagner but don't know what the grade is. Yeah, that's believable. Is there something in the water over there that makes it impossible to tell the truth?

Maybe some consignor, who might own two, or three, Wagners, has committed to consign one of them but hasn't decided which one to send in?

That could happen!

[calvindog]

Or someone is attempting to slip a Frankenstein Wagner past a grading company.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by e107collector

I contacted Legendary today, and I was told "We don't know what grade the Wagner T-206 is."

Too funny.

[E93]

When i e-mailed last week inquiring about it, I got a note saying it was not in the office yet.
JimB

[bijoem]

edited out. never mind.

[Orioles1954]

I don't see anything nefarious here, could very well be out at grading.

[barrysloate]

If you send a Wagner out to be graded, wouldn't you know the results within two hours?

[calvindog]

No, I'm sure the owner sent it in by regular mail with the $5, 20 day turnaround service.

[barrysloate]

Right, and in the box where it asks how much do you want the card to be insured, they wrote $75 so they could save on the grading fees.

[calvindog]

And Barry I'm sure that when Mastro/Legendary learned they would be receiving a Wagner for their auction they never bothered to ask the owner what the grade was. Must have slipped their collective mind.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by e107collector

I contacted Legendary today, and I was told "We don't know what grade the Wagner T-206 is."

Tony - did they say when they expected to know the grade?

[ctownboy]

Maybe Ray Rod, (Thevintagecardexpress2009) the trailer park trash from San Diego, got tired of messing around with people on this board, Craig's List and eBay and decided to screw around with the auction houses.

David

[Leon]

Originally Posted by E93

When i e-mailed last week inquiring about it, I got a note saying it was not in the office yet.
JimB

That has never stopped conspiracy theories before, why should it now? I mean, no doubt they have handled some things in not the best fashion (at least to me), but not every single thing they say or do is with criminal/fraudulent intent behind it. This board is great at exposing fraud but I just think sometimes we get a bit too carried away. I AM NOT defending anyone and thank goodness they don't advertise here or that too would be a conspiracy...

Maybe they should have said what more they knew about the card...such as

"we were told it's in the fr-gd range but won't know until we see it"....or something like that? That would have been a better answer but it's not my business.

[teetwoohsix]

David-that was funny

Ray Rod/Edwin/whoever the f%@# he is decides to go for the BIG FISH

Maybe someday he will figure out that it pays more to get a job and earn an honest paycheck..............

[bijoem]

Originally Posted by Leon

I AM NOT defending anyone and thank goodness they don't advertise here or that too would be a conspiracy...

Leon -
everyone is a 'potential' advertiser.

so you will never be completely free from the conspiracy theories.

in addition, I was looking at an old film, and I think I may have seen you by the grassy knoll.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by bijoem

Leon -
everyone is a 'potential' advertiser.

so you will never be completely free from the conspiracy theories.

in addition, I was looking at an old film, and I think I may have seen you by the grassy knoll.

I remember the arguments about the advertising very well, from about 3 yrs ago. It's so difficult to prove/defend what will or won't happen in the future. I can say though, that for the 3 yrs of banners, I have never once protected an advertiser. That being said I was very close to the grassy knoll yesterday. I had a great meeting with a new technology prospect and it was in downtown Dallas, so I was there. I was only 2 mos. old when JFK got shot and hadn't quite learned how to shoot at that time. However, I do remember chewing on a toy pistol once.

[Leon]

Doug left me a voicemail today and simply said the Wagner is being graded and they don't know what it will be yet. He said he didn't feel it was appropriate to state the grade when they don't know what it is. It's as simple as that.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Leon

Doug left me a voicemail today and simply said the Wagner is being graded and they don't know what it will be yet. He said he didn't feel it was appropriate to state the grade when they don't know what it is. It's as simple as that.

A likely story. How can someone leave mail by voice? Doesn't make any sense. Seems really suspicious to me. And how do you know it was even Doug's voice? I suspect it was someone with a pro-Mastro/Legendary agenda just trying to come to the defense of the indefensible.

To quote an old friend of mine on Net54, "Yawn."

[calvindog]

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...px?lotid=98847

I'll be in Chicago next week on some business...maybe I can stop by Mastro and check the new Wagner out.

[Matt]

The grade drops:
http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...100&category=1

"Disclosure: It must be clarified that, although past restoration has been largely reversed, as described, under no circumstances would a qualified grading service or knowledgeable collector ever deem this card to be anything but a restored or altered example. In no way does our description intend to imply that this collectible should be regarded as anything but an authentic "altered" card."

[calvindog]

Gee, I thought that Doug didn't know what the grade would be? Sure sounds like it was an "Authentic" all the way through. Sure took a long time to figure out that 'grade.'

[bijoem]

I'm not directing this at Legendary.... because I am guessing this was an owner's/consignor's decision....

But - why alter a card, for a second time, to make it look like it did before it was altered the first time?

Altering a card to get it to 'look' like it did before it was altered.....
seems ironic.

[teetwoohsix]

So if I understand correctly,they sent the altered/restored Wagner in to have the restoration work reversed,hoping the card would get at least some type of numerical grade,and when they sent it back in to be reviewed,it came back with the big "A" once again-please correct me if I got that wrong.
Wouldn't some collectors still want this Wagner-since it may cost less to obtain,fill the nearly "unfillable" spot in their collection,and at least know it is an "authentic" card?
I do not desire cards from the T206 set that are deemed authentic,but I may bend on this one

[e107collector]

Even tough they are tough cards, it seems wierd that the first 4 lots in the auction are all altered in some way.

Just my opinion.

Tony

[Matt]

Originally Posted by e107collector

Even tough they are tough cards, it seems wierd that the first 4 lots in the auction are all altered in some way.

Maybe all came from the same consignor?

[Anthony S.]

This may be my favorite sentence of the year. From the item description:

"....decades’-worth of private handling – doubtless incurred during the fulfillment of the card’s role as a prized family heirloom – took a natural toll on sharply cut edges and deeply inked surfaces."

[Matt]

Originally Posted by bijoem

But - why alter a card, for a second time, to make it look like it did before it was altered the first time?

I'd guess it was done to try and get it into a numbered holder.

[calvindog]

Some fraudsters are well-known for buying altered cards (or suspect memorabilia) at reduced prices with the hope that either a grader or the next sucker who buys it will believe it to be un-altered.

[bijoem]

Originally Posted by Matt

I'd guess it was done to try and get it into a numbered holder.

Can any card that was once restored, with honest disclosure, make it into a numbered holder once the restoration was removed?

I wonder what the policy of the grading companies is on that.

[scooter729]

Originally Posted by Anthony S.

This may be my favorite sentence of the year. From the item description:

"....decades’-worth of private handling – doubtless incurred during the fulfillment of the card’s role as a prized family heirloom – took a natural toll on sharply cut edges and deeply inked surfaces."

In some auctions, a descriptive sentence like that could add $10K to the final hammer price.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by scooter729

In some auctions, a descriptive sentence like that could add $10K to the final hammer price.

Throw in some flowery language and it might bump 50K.

[onlychild]

Can any card that was once restored, with honest disclosure, make it into a numbered holder once the restoration was removed?

Yes...absolutely. I have a great example as well, Auth to 3. Sometimes, to remove an alteration, added ink, stock etc, the card would need to be realtered to get a grade...especially higher than a 1.

It may bring up a good debate. Is removing heavy restoration work on a card altering it?

Can't understand this one though, it looked trimmed in the restored state. How could removing the restoration work change that? Seems it would go from Auth to Auth. Perhaps they were hoping for a 1. Realistically could it get any higher?

On a side note, an artist sketch displayed a Leon-looking guy seen in the grassy knoll. Humm...and he lives in Texas? Then again (from sketch) he could be Keyser Soze.

Kevin Saucier
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[bijoem]

Originally Posted by onlychild

Yes...absolutely. I have a great example as well, Auth to 3. Sometimes, to remove an alteration, added ink, stock etc, the card would need to be realtered to get a grade...especially higher than a 1.

It may bring up a good debate. Is removing heavy restoration work on a card altering it?

Kevin.... when your card was resubmitted - was the prior alteration, and the new 'removing restoration' disclosed?

I have no doubt that grading companies can be fooled.... I am just wondering what their official policy is if all is told to them. If restoration is removed - are graders okay with possibly giving it a number grade?

[barrysloate]

Yes, removing restoration would be a form of altering.

If you gain weight and let out your pants, then lose weight and have them tapered again, you've altered them twice. Doesn't matter which direction you go.

[Leon]

I was never on the grassy knoll on Dallas. I lived in Houston at the time Kennedy was assasinated. I think I was about 1.

As for this Wagner....at least there is enough of a description that anyone bidding on it knows exactly where it stands today. That is a heck of a lot more than I can say about some other high value cards I have seen sold....best regards

[onlychild]

Originally Posted by bijoem

Kevin.... when your card was resubmitted - was the prior alteration, and the new 'removing restoration' disclosed?

I have no doubt that grading companies can be fooled.... I am just wondering what their official policy is if all is told to them. If restoration is removed - are graders okay with possibly giving it a number grade?

Good question. No it was not disclosed. The restoration (or alteration) was found out by mistake. It was soaking and a rebuilt corner just fell off, this was of course, fascinating. It had already been rejected as evidence of trimming (not by me), if I'm not mistaken. Seems the two edges had been trimmed back (ever so slightly) to accommodate the rebuilt material.

I set aside the rebuilt material, trimmed and reshaped the bottom and side edges as well as and new corner to blend with the missing stock. It was sent in for grading as an experiment and came back a 3. It's currently on my website with a disclosure.

It is my opinion that removing a restoration with nothing else being done, would be in fact, be altering the card once again. I can't imagine that a grading company would think any differently if it were to be disclosed.

Yes, at least there has been full disclosure with the Wagner but I can see where it would raise some other debatable questions.


Kevin Saucier
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[batsballsbases]

Its amazing in reading the description I think the 2 best lines are
1) "The item underwent a measure of careful and professional restoration"

2) " The restorers work consisted primarily of inpainting to hide paper loss,subdue creases,and compensate for the erosion of ink pigmantation"

I do give them credit for at least stating in the description that the card is altered but boy an academy award should be given to the writer of this descriptionor at the very least he should be given 5K on the final hammer price for that prolific style of writing! Can you say lipstick on a pig.

[calvindog]

I just have one question to ask: what kind of malevolent jackass would screw around and alter a 75K card?

[chaddurbin]

A+ to legendary for being upfront with full disclosure of all the restorations dating back to the 80's...even tho doug wasn't sure of the card's would be grade a month ago.

where can i read the description in case it made into a 1 holder?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Or someone is attempting to slip a Frankenstein Wagner past a grading company.

Hey, I wonder who guessed this a month ago?

And Leon claimed Doug left a voicemail saying "that the Wagner is being graded and they don't know what it will be yet. He said he didn't feel it was appropriate to state the grade when they don't know what it is."

I thought they knew it was "Authentic"? Isn't that what the item's description says? Why would Doug claim that he didn't know what the grade would be when he apparently knew it before sending it in to PSA?

When you consider Mastro/Legendary/Doug Allen always presume the worst -- and you'll usually be right.

Edited to add: Quan, exactly.

[batsballsbases]

Jeff,
I was going to say the same thing! Why would you do that to one of the grails of the hobby. I believe the card would have done much better without all that work. But I guess the same question could be asked about the Plank! But I guess we can save that story for another day!

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Hey, I wonder who guessed this a month ago?

And Leon claimed Doug left a voicemail saying "that the Wagner is being graded and they don't know what it will be yet. He said he didn't feel it was appropriate to state the grade when they don't know what it is."

I thought they knew it was "Authentic"? Isn't that what the item's description says? Why would Doug claim that he didn't know what the grade would be when he apparently knew it before sending it in to PSA?

When you consider Mastro/Legendary/Doug Allen always presume the worst -- and you'll usually be right.

Edited to add: Quan, exactly.

Better save that voice mail...I feel a subpoena coming on...

[calvindog]

In the spirit of Mastro/Legendary record retention policy I would expect the voicemail to be 'lost.'