Johnny Damon -HOF?

[Jay Wolt]

Originally Posted by Kzoo

HOF's should be all around great players, IMO.

Matt

What about a David Ortiz DH type?

[packs]

Edgar Martinez is a HOFer in my opinion.

[MacDice]

Without a doubt he should be in his high schools hall of fame

[Ladder7]

Originally Posted by Jay Wolt

What about a David Ortiz DH type?

No to Papi (PEDs) and especially Manny.

Back to Damon.

[novakjr]

Edgar is NOT a hall of famer, same for Ortiz...I understand the greatest DH argument, but ANYONE can DH. So you cannot compare a DH's numbers to other DH's, you must compare them to EVERY player at EVERY position to see how they stack up.. I'd rather see Larry Walker in WAY before Edgar...

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by novakjr

Edgar is NOT a hall of famer, same for Ortiz...I understand the greatest DH argument, but ANYONE can DH. So you cannot compare a DH's numbers to other DH's, you must compare them to EVERY player at EVERY position to see how they stack up.. I'd rather see Larry Walker in WAY before Edgar...

Unfortunately Larry Walker suffers from another stigma, that may keep several players out of the Hall. "The Colorado Effect".

We've created so many reasons to keep guys out.......5-10 years down the road, all we'll be left with are guys like Damon, Jeter, Biggio and a few others.

Even power hitters who never got connected to PED's, like Jim Thome and Frank Thomas............may have trouble navigating the "well, they must have been on them like everybody else", mentality.

That's why I chuckle when I hear people claim the standards have become relaxed.

[U240robert]

I don't think he gets 3,000 hits, therefore no Hall of fame.
I live in the Tampa area and there's talk he may be replaced/platoon
if so then he won't get 3,000 hits. He's getting old
and there really isn't a market for a guy that hits .260 with 5 home runs
unless he's great on defense and Damon isn't.

Ages ago the Hall of Fame committee's were pushing to get their buddies in. I think the Hall went through a period where a number of 'very good' players got in. I'm a Red Sox fan but I never really thought Doerr was a Hall of Famer, or Joe Gordon for that matter. But it was worse with players from the 20's and 30's as Hornsby was on the committee for awhile.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by U240robert

Ages ago the Hall of Fame committee's were pushing to get their buddies in. I think the Hall went through a period where a number of 'very good' players got in. I'm a Red Sox fan but I never really thought Doerr was a Hall of Famer, or Joe Gordon for that matter. But it was worse with players from the 20's and 30's as Hornsby was on the committee for awhile.

Not sure about Doerr but Gordon's a HOF'er to me. Short career is the only real knock on him. Bill James makes a terrific case for him belonging.

Tabe

[bcbgcbrcb]

With the super-weak class of first-time eligibles in 2012, I think that Barry Larkin is a shoo-in for next year. My guess is he will be the only one elected amongst players.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by novakjr

Edgar is NOT a hall of famer, same for Ortiz...I understand the greatest DH argument, but ANYONE can DH. So you cannot compare a DH's numbers to other DH's, you must compare them to EVERY player at EVERY position to see how they stack up.. I'd rather see Larry Walker in WAY before Edgar...

ANYONE can DH? What does that even mean? If ANYONE can do it then why aren't ALL other DH's #'s the same as Edgar's? Silly argment.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If Damon should hang around to get 3000, that will be the signal that 3000 is no longer an automatic milestone. The HOF is overstuffed already; if Damon gets in it becomes a joke.

[Orioles1954]

Edgar Martinez was a fan favorite in Seattle, I understand that. He should go in their Hall of Fame. His numbers, even if he was not a DH makes him a charter member of the "Hall of Very Good" along with guys like Baines, Pinson, Santo, etc. etc.

[packs]

I don't understand the anyone can DH argument at all. You are a pure hitter or you are not. I don't think a position like third base, Edgar's original position, carries a premium like say, catcher. I find it far fetched to say that Edgar wouldn't have been as great a hitter as he was if he was playing the field. The only difference in his stats would be that he was a liability in the field.

Edgar Martinez was an incredible hitter and his ability in my opinion puts him in the HOF class. I don't think there is any comparison between him and other "very good players." He was an elite hitter without any qualifiers.

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

ANYONE can DH? What does that even mean? If ANYONE can do it then why aren't ALL other DH's #'s the same as Edgar's? Silly argment.

What it meant was that any player at any position can be a DH. 1B, C, RF, LF, SS, 3B, CF and 2B, any of them can DH. The only reason they don't DH is because they CAN play the field.. A DH's numbers HAVE to be compared to EVERYONE in the league(non-pitchers of course).. Basically, there is no such thing as BEST DH, because there is almost always someone at a position who is BETTER. Babe Ruth could've been a DH, Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Mantle, Ted Williams too. Anyone and every last position player throughout the history of the league is technically a DH who plays the field. I think the designated part confuses everyone. At the core of it, he's just a hitter like everyone else.. Basically, Edgar is the best of the defensively deficient, gimpy and old...

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by packs

I don't understand the anyone can DH argument at all. You are a pure hitter or you are not. I don't think a position like third base, Edgar's original position, carries a premium like say, catcher. I find it far fetched to say that Edgar wouldn't have been as great a hitter as he was if he was playing the field. The only difference in his stats would be that he was a liability in the field.

Edgar Martinez was an incredible hitter and his ability in my opinion puts him in the HOF class. I don't think there is any comparison between him and other "very good players." He was an elite hitter without any qualifiers.

Let's not kid ourselves. EG was a very good hitter and a perennial Silver Slugger. However, look at his stats and comps. EVEN if he did play a position, EG is on the outside looking it at the HOF in Cooperstown.

[packs]

I disagree. He led the league in hitting twice, doubles twice, OBP three times. He is number 22 on the career OBP list. There are zero people in front of him who are eligible for the HOF that are not already in. For his career he hit 60 points above the league average. His career OPS is 200 points above league average. I consider him an elite player.

[novakjr]

Now, everyone is gonna start with how important he was to those 90's Seattle teams.....Actually, he hurt the team more than he helped. Had he been capable of playing even the remotest bit of defense at his natural position, the team wouldn't have been forced into the rotating crew of Offensively sub-par Third Basemen (Mike Blowers, Russ Davis, David Bell, Jeff Cirillo, Scott Spiezio), and instead could've spent their time and money filling that DH spot with end of their career players who could still contribute something offensively. The way the DH position is most properly used.. Granted Seattle was never very good at finding those type of guys before Edgar. Alvin Davis and Pete O'brien weren't exactly the prototypical DH types..

[novakjr]

Don't get me wrong here...I'd be OK if Edgar got in, but I definitely wouldn't push for it.. I guess, I'm really indifferent on the subject...

[packs]

Why would his playing third base make a difference unless Seattle made it to the World Series? I don't think they even reach the playoffs without Edgar. And I will always remember him for hitting 500 against the Yankees to end Donnie's dream of making it to the Series.

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by packs

Why would his playing third base make a difference unless Seattle made it to the World Series? I don't think they even reach the playoffs without Edgar. And I will always remember him for hitting 500 against the Yankees to end Donnie's dream of making it to the Series.

If Edgar plays third so that the team could get a decent end of career DH type, I guarantee that team would've made a few series...They probably would've been better than the Indians in the late 90's..

[Orioles1954]

The lack of real "wear and tear" that Hall of Fame position players are exposed to and that bandbox he called home for the majority of his career also has to be put in consideration. However, to be fair his best season did come at Safeco.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Stats are not everything but the similarity scores on baseball reference.com are always interesting.

For Edgar, not exactly HOF company here.
1.Todd Helton (912)
2.Will Clark (902)
3.John Olerud (885)
4.Moises Alou (879)
5.Bobby Abreu (874)
6.Bernie Williams (860)
7.Bob Johnson (857)
8.Magglio Ordonez (855)
9.Paul O'Neill (852)
10.Ellis Burks (850)

And for Damon:
1.Tim Raines (887)
2.Vada Pinson (880)
3.Steve Finley (861)
4.Willie Davis (858)
5.Roberto Alomar (849) *
6.Jimmy Ryan (849)
7.Jose Cruz (840)
8.Mickey Vernon (839)
9.Al Oliver (837)
10.Kenny Lofton (834)

[tbob]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

In my opinion, if you have to "think" whether or not a player belongs in the Hall-Of-Fame then he doesn't.

Johnny Damon has been a very good player, but not a Hall-Of-Famer.

+1

[Peter_Spaeth]

By contrast look at the elite company Biggio keeps. No comparison to Damon, none at all.

1.Robin Yount (836) *
2.Joe Morgan (779) *
3.Paul Molitor (778) *
4.Roberto Alomar (773) *
5.Cal Ripken (761) *
6.Derek Jeter (756)
7.Brooks Robinson (739) *
8.Lou Whitaker (739)
9.George Brett (736) *
10.Ryne Sandberg (723) *

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by novakjr

Actually, he hurt the team more than he helped...

Thanks, I needed a good laugh today.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Stats are not everything but the similarity scores on baseball reference.com are always interesting.

For Edgar, not exactly HOF company here.
1.Todd Helton (912)
2.Will Clark (902)
3.John Olerud (885)
4.Moises Alou (879)
5.Bobby Abreu (874)
6.Bernie Williams (860)
7.Bob Johnson (857)
8.Magglio Ordonez (855)
9.Paul O'Neill (852)
10.Ellis Burks (850)

Actually, I think Helton is a HOFer, and there is a chance that Abreu, Williams and even possibly Clark make the Hall someday.

People are always wanting the HOF to only admit the absolute best of the best but that simply isn't what they do (that has never been the case), nor do I think there is anything wrong with it. Many here would rather the Hall have 20-30 members but it just wouldn't be any fun if that were the case. Accept the HOF for what it is, not what you want it to be.

Thia is also interesting... Edgar Martinez
Hall Of Fame StatisticsPlayer rank in (·)

Black Ink Batting - 20 (106), Average HOFer ≈ 27

Gray Ink Batting - 107 (201), Average HOFer ≈ 144

Hall of Fame Monitor Batting - 132 (104), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards Batting - 50 (82), Average HOFer ≈ 50

Would Edgar be the best HOFer ever, or even among the elite HOFers? NO
Would he be a "Average" HOFer? Yes, he would.

[SteveMitchell]

If you compare Johnny Damon with Vada Pinson, the similarities are interesting:


DAMON Category PINSON
2700 HITS 2757
1600 RUNS 1366
1100 RBI 1170
500 DOUBLES 485
100 TRIPLES 127
400 STEALS 305
.286 B.A. .286
.434 S.A. .442

Given that Vada Pinson may be one of the best modern era players not in the Hall of Fame and that he played his first 4 years under the shorter 154 game schedule, I think it likely Johnny Damon must make 3,000 hits in order to overcome the Pinson factor (whatever it is).

Both Damon and Pinson would make my Hall of Fame - but so would 100 to 200 others.

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Thanks, I needed a good laugh today.

You're welcome. That didn't mean that the team would've been better without him, but rather that the team would've been better with him at 3rd base, than they were with him simply as a DH. I really think once all things are weighed, they pretty much broke even with him not being able to play the field.. Because for every bit better he was than any DH they could've brought in, they were also that much worse at third base with him DHing..

[ElCabron]

Saying Johnny Damon throws like a girl is an insult to girls everywhere, including my 6-year-old daughter who has a much better arm than him. My 2-year-old, however, may not have have a better arm than Damon for another month or two.

But having the worst arm in centerfield history isn't why he's not a HOFer. Then again, he's not done yet. What if he reaches 3,000 hits AND wins one or two more championships?

Comparisons to Biggio or Raines would only be made by people who weren't around when those guys were playing. If Damon's career ends today he's Al Oliver.

-Ryan

[Kenny Cole]

Ryan,

I disagree. Damon isn't as good as Al Oliver was.

[novakjr]

I'd rather see Raines or Lofton in before Damon. And Lofton is a HUGE stretch. It'll never happen.. 3000 will he hard to argue against though..

[Brendan]

Morris has to be in if Blyleven got in.

I've always marveled at the similarities of the numbers of these three pitchers. One of them is in.
Root
Haines
Fitzsimmons

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by Brendan

Morris has to be in if Blyleven got in.

I've always marveled at the similarities of the numbers of these three pitchers. One of them is in.
Root
Haines
Fitzsimmons

Not Necessarily. Blyleven was way better than Morris.. .59 difference in ERA. Had Blyleven pitched for better teams, he would've easily topped 300 wins, plus his strikeout numbers were incredible. Morris has none of that. The fact that Blyleven fell short of 300 wins is what seems to be confusing people into comparing them, when in fact, there is no comparison..

I'm not trying to diminish Morris. I really do think he belongs in the hall. Just barely. But he was nowhere near as good as Blyleven.

[chaddurbin]

ugh, no morris...ever, please. edgar i can go either way.

lofton...lol.

these hof argument threads...lol x 2.

(larkin...yes trammell=no)

[barrysloate]

I'm still waiting for Al Oliver to get in.

[packs]

I will never understand how Jack Morris is a HOFer. His ERA is 3.90. How can ANYONE with 3.90 career ERA be a HOFer? I understand a lot of people argue his post-season performance should get him in. But even in the post-season his ERA was 3.80.

[D. Bergin]

If Johnny Damon gets to 3000 hits..........he will also reach 1700 Runs Scored.

Like him or not he was a consistent table setter. If his RBI and Runs Scored numbers were switched I doubt there would be any questions of how valuable he was to have in your lineup from a HOF standpoint.

No, "Runs" aren't as romantic as "RBI's" and don't get you sent to as many All-Star games..........but they are just as valuable.

If he gets to 3000 hits and doesn't get in, he would be the first 3000 hit non-PED, non-banned player to get snubbed.

If he gets to 1700 runs and doesn't get in, he would be the first 1700 run non-PED, non-banned player to get snubbed.

This is assuming Biggio also gets in.......who also fits both these categories, and I'm certainly not advocating Damon is better then Biggio..............or even that I would vote for Damon. Just pointing out some interesting stats that even us uncivilized laymen who have no idea how WAR is calculated, can understand.

Longevity and consistency still should count for something, I would think.

[Brendan]

Originally Posted by novakjr

Not Necessarily. Blyleven was way better than Morris.. .59 difference in ERA. Had Blyleven pitched for better teams, he would've easily topped 300 wins, plus his strikeout numbers were incredible. Morris has none of that. The fact that Blyleven fell short of 300 wins is what seems to be confusing people into comparing them, when in fact, there is no comparison..

I'm not trying to diminish Morris. I really do think he belongs in the hall. Just barely. But he was nowhere near as good as Blyleven.

Many people would disagree with your opinion....

Strikeout numbers were incredible? Who cares? I'll take a popout or a groundout and be happy. Same thing with WHIP...these rotisserie leagues are changing how baseball stats are viewed. It may matter who has more strikeouts and a better WHIP for some rotisserie league, but not for the players or the actual game.

[dherm360]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If Damon should hang around to get 3000, that will be the signal that 3000 is no longer an automatic milestone. The HOF is overstuffed already; if Damon gets in it becomes a joke.

this would be similar to Jaime Moyer thinking he can pitch 3 more years and get to 300 (I think he would be 53). No way he is a HOFer

Damon is an above average player not a HOFer