Moonlight Graham

[rhettyeakley]

Dave, i love that 2nd postcard you posted with the players goofing around (especially Phil Cooney). Cool to see a candid shot of Native American William Cadreau, who played in the Majors briefly under the name Chief Chouneau. Probably the best images of him I have ever seen.

[brianp-beme]

Those are really awesome Spokane team postcard photos Dave, and I love the team shot with Moonlight Graham, who just seemed to know he should keep his cap off to make himself easier to pick out 100+ years later.

Brian

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

No backlash here. I hear you and loud and clear. I have one Graham piece and it's very cool, but his fame is a fictional character and not as an actual ballplayer.
Personally I would not spend thousands on a Graham item. But I get the allure also.


QUOTE=BillyCoxDodgers3B;2314315]I've said it before, and it's always met with some backlash...

The huge interest, and especially the high values of anything related to Graham, will never fail to confound me.

People who are so enamored of him do realize that they're just buying into a half-fictional character as created by Kinsella and portrayed so wonderfully by (mostly) Burt Lancaster, right? Values of our collectibles are usually based on achievements or legends that actually transpired or may have happened. There's some basis in reality. The Moonlight Graham stuff that people so eagerly eat up simply sprang from the mind of an author of fiction. Beyond the fact Graham played in the Majors and was a doctor in Chisholm, MN, the rest is all Kinsella. The factual part of Graham's story is pretty typical and ho-hum. Yes, he was a kindly doctor and was remembered fondly by generations of children, but this wouldn't have affected collectability or value without Kinsella's intervention.

If Kinsella had thumbed through his MacMillan Encyclopedia and instead decided to craft a story around Kewpie Pennington, another Deadball Era guy who played in one game, none of the Graham diehards would have a clue who he was and his memorabilia would be of much more limited interest and value. Pennington had a cool nickname and only pitched one MLB inning with zero strikeouts. There's your story! "If only I could have struck one player out!". Same basic concept of a dream not realized, but now everyone is infatuated with the fictional legend of Kewpie Pennington!

I know, I know...but it was Moonlight Graham who Kinsella selected.

[/QUOTE]Well articulated and duly noted. But, for me, part of the fun of collecting is being able to show some of my cards to non-collectors, and Moonlight would be a great one to show.

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[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

Well articulated and duly noted. But, for me, part of the fun of collecting is being able to show some of my cards to non-collectors, and Moonlight would be a great one to show.

Thank you. I'm happy to see many great responses to my thoughts versus the first time I mentioned anything years ago!

I fully agree with your point above, Al. The character of Moonlight Graham is someone that many people are familiar with, so sharing the real Graham's memorabilia would be of more interest to non-fans and non-collectors alike. You can also explain this entire backstory as we've been discussing: the real Graham and the magical, fictitious Graham.

For those that collect Graham's memorabilia (and we all know you're invested into it directly because of the book, the movie or both! ), it would make sense to also collect Burt Lancaster and W.P. Kinsella memorabilia. They are the ones that should truly be thanked for your fandom of the actual Archibald Graham and without whom you'd have never fallen for Moonlight memorabilia!

[seattlerainiers]

Thanks, Rhett and Brian. It is fun to share those cards.

Here's another RPPC (rare panoramic this time) of the 1912 Spokane squad. Here's the players I can immediately recognize. I could likely ID more if I spend some time with it:

Phil Cooney: far right
Dutch Altman: 2nd from right
Cadreau/Conneau: 6th from right
Harry Ostdiek: 8th from right
Lloyd Zimmerman: 5th from left
Paul Strand: 2nd from left

Interestingly, If you look at the 4th and 5th players from right, next to Cadreau, they also appear to be of Native American heritage. Looking at the 1912 Spokane Indians roster on BR and/or Stats Crew, none of those names jump out at me as candidates.

Seems like a stretch to think they came to Spokane with Cadreau from the Fond du Lac Band of the Lake Superior Ojibwe in northeastern Minnesota. Been meaning to get a hold of a few folks I know that might provide insight, but haven't gotten to it.

Anyways, I love this card too. Sorry to briefly hijack the thread away from Moonlight!

[brianp-beme]

You can't throw shade on Moonlight...he casts his own glow. Another great postcard Dave.

Brian

[ksfarmboy]

Dave those are amazing!

[Tripp Trapp]

A ca. 1906 Scranton Minors pre-linen PC. Might the good ol’ doc be in right field?! The closest I’ll ever get to owning anything “Moonlight” related!

[Moonlight”Doc”Graham fan]

I wanted to share with Moonlight Graham collectors that our family recently discovered another Graham signature. In 1951 my mother was a senior at Chisholm High School where Doc Graham was the school doctor. That year, the yearbook was dedicated to him and my mother asked him to sign his dedication page. The signed yearbook will be auctioned at the MLB All Star Auction 7/11/2023.

[piecesofthegame]

Just getting around to reading this thread. I, too, am fascinated by the divide between those obsessed with Graham memorabilia and those who could care less. As an antique auto collector, I often relate sports to the car hobby.

When trying to grasp the Graham hype, think of the Delorean. The Delorean was a rather futuristic car when released but ultimately turned out to be a hunk of junk by a new car company that went down in flames. (Google John Delorean if you don’t know the story.) Nonetheless, if you were 7 years old when you saw Back to the Future like I was, it left an indelible mark on your childhood. To this day, when I see one, it evokes the feelings of seeing that movie and being mesmerized by the car. I would love to own one someday. The car collector in me knows it’s a hunk of junk, but the kid in me loves the memories it evokes.

For those who love Graham and his story, I’m sure he evokes the same emotions of watching the movie, and perhaps even falling in love with baseball nostalgia.
For those who are purely collectors, he’s a nobody who played an inning and should be valued accordingly.
Just my two cents!

[Snapolit1]

Collecting is all about irrational attachments to material things. I don't see how an obsession with chasing a Moonlight Graham card is any different that chasing Eddie Plank or King Kelly or 1000s of other players who have no larger cultural significance today. Something speaks you or it doesn't. To chase tobacco cards of obscure players and then obscure backs of tobacco cards of obscure players makes no more "sense" to me than trying to chase a phone book from Chisholm, MN that has Graham listed in it.

[z28jd]

One strange thing about Moonlight Graham that most people don't know because of the movie (and because of his Baseball-Reference page) is that he actually played two innings on defense, not one.

I wonder if his correct stats were known back then if he would have actually been the player chosen. It may have been Cy Neighbors used instead, as he actually did only play one inning in the outfield without getting a chance to bat. Neighbors actually got left out of some boxscores from his only game.

[byrone]

There sure would be an interesting story to be written about Harry O’Neill, should someone ever get around to writing it

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by z28jd

One strange thing about Moonlight Graham that most people don't know because of the movie (and because of his Baseball-Reference page) is that he actually played two innings on defense, not one.

I wonder if his correct stats were known back then if he would have actually been the player chosen. It may have been Cy Neighbors used instead, as he actually did only play one inning in the outfield without getting a chance to bat. Neighbors actually got left out of some boxscores from his only game.

Many aspects of the movie (preumably the book) that were totally wrong . . . really disheartening. Wasnt last game of the season. Didn't retire from baseball after the game. Etc. Etc. Why I have never watched the famous Gehrig or Ruth movies. When film people start making shit up to make it more "dramatic" I ask for my check.

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Many aspects of the movie (preumably the book) that were totally wrong . . . really disheartening. Wasnt last game of the season. Didn't retire from baseball after the game. Etc. Etc. Why I have never watched the famous Gehrig or Ruth movies. When film people start making shit up to make it more "dramatic" I ask for my check.

I think some of the errors were just due to the available research at the time, though I don't know why the year he played was changed other than so he knew who the players were on the field...though I'm sure everyone here rolls their eyes when he knows who Gil Hodges is.

I think the one inning part really stands out because it seems important to the story. That's why it makes me wonder if it was known back then that he actually played two innings, would he still be the player they used? Let's face it, it wasn't easy to fact check the now known errors back when the movie came out. You had to go along with it.

I didn't realize until somewhat recently that he was actually a lefty hitter, even though I've been on his Baseball-Reference page countless times before noticing it.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Further proving the point that people continue to shell out large amounts of money for the memorabilia of a real person based on the collective love of a mostly contrived book and movie character. I hope people can realize that they're so enamored because of the talents of Burt Lancaster and Frank Whaley, along with Bill Kinsella. This Moonlight Graham love really has nothing to do with the real man who took care of school kids in Chisholm. The name's the same, but so much diverges from that point. I think it's preposterous, but there's no right or wrong way to consider the matter, I suppose.

Conversely, it makes perfect sense to me that people pay high amounts for anything to do with Eddie Gaedel. Yeah, he wasn't really an MLB player, but wait--he really was, and there's a contract to prove it! Yes, a publicity stunt, but all sealed up in a then-legal manner! Gaedel did take an actual at bat in a Major League game. What happened, happened. Those are the facts; his collectability derives from 100% true events. Funny to consider the outcome if Veeck hadn't signed him to a player contract. Say this stunt had happened in between a double header. Cain still pitched to Gaedel, Swift and Hurley still behind the plate. Everything was the same aside from Gaedel actually stepping into a game. He'd have been nearly completely forgotten about; barely a footnote. Very few people would have had any interest in his memorabilia which would carry extremely reduced price tags regardless of rarity.

Of course, unproven and sometimes laughably false legends can serve to inflate collectability and value of certain people's memorabilia. Usually, these tales are add-ons to proven events which are what truly brought the celebrity their fame. Until Bill Kinsella came along needing a groovy name for his book character, Archibald Graham languished in the near-total obscurity that some might say is deserving of such a modest baseball career. While a decent human being, the real Graham contributed absolutely nothing to drive the value and interest in his memorabilia to another stratosphere. Flip through your baseball encyclopedia; there's Graham after Graham after Graham. Perhaps not the same surname or stats, but a veritable ton of players with similarly minuscule MLB careers. Alas, Kinsella's index finger landed on Graham, and the rest is (one kind of) history.

The Delorean comparison as noted earlier has merit to a point, but then there are definitely differences. Yes, it's a hunk of junk, but the design was so representative of the era in which it was created. Let's also not forget its infamy due to the cocaine smuggling! It would still have ended up eliciting nostalgia for many people even if it was never featured in an iconic movie. Their value wouldn't be the same, but there would still be lots of interest and strong collectability as an anomalous, aesthetically pleasing piece of the 1980's.

[glynparson]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Collecting is all about irrational attachments to material things. I don't see how an obsession with chasing a Moonlight Graham card is any different that chasing Eddie Plank or King Kelly or 1000s of other players who have no larger cultural significance today. Something speaks you or it doesn't. To chase tobacco cards of obscure players and then obscure backs of tobacco cards of obscure players makes no more "sense" to me than trying to chase a phone book from Chisholm, MN that has Graham listed in it.

You really can’t grasp someone being motivated by fact over fiction? This right here is what’s wrong with the world today. Fiction is given as much weight as fact. What freaking lunacy.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by glynparson

You really can’t grasp someone being motivated by fact over fiction? This right here is what’s wrong with the world today. Fiction is given as much weight as fact. What freaking lunacy.

Ha. That’s gold. My views on collecting baseball cards just captured everything wrong with the world. In a few lines. Touché. Love it. Not sure I’ve ever been so proud of myself.

[jingram058]

Uhhh...totally contrived piece here, but since we're on the subject of fantasy vs reality, here is the only "Moonlight" Graham piece I could afford.

[redauto5]

Originally Posted by glynparson

You really can’t grasp someone being motivated by fact over fiction? This right here is what’s wrong with the world today. Fiction is given as much weight as fact. What freaking lunacy.

The Fact that fiction can paint broader brush strokes of Truth in the human soul than Fact, as I'm sure you would describe it, can - is why myth exists. I wouldn't want to live in a world bereft of all the beautiful colors of imagination, myth and transcendent truth. But go ahead, by all means, enjoy your black and white-dom.

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[Snapolit1]

Well said.

Originally Posted by redauto5

The Fact that fiction can paint broader brush strokes of Truth in the human soul than Fact, as I'm sure you would describe it, can - is why myth exists. I wouldn't want to live in a world bereft of all the beautiful colors of imagination, myth and transcendent truth. But go ahead, by all means, enjoy your black and white-dom.

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[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Many aspects of the movie (preumably the book) that were totally wrong . . . really disheartening. Wasnt last game of the season. Didn't retire from baseball after the game. Etc. Etc. Why I have never watched the famous Gehrig or Ruth movies. When film people start making shit up to make it more "dramatic" I ask for my check.

Well to be fair it is a fictional movie, not a biopic.

[Carter08]

I personally think a Moonlight Graham card is one of the coolest things to seek out In the hobby. I have zero problem knowing that is based on fiction more than fact.

[kevlar7]

I have enjoyed searching for Moonlight Graham items over the years. The hunt is what I enjoy the most about collecting sports memorabilia and as others have stated, it takes a lot of patience trying to find Archie Graham items. Living in MN, I also thought is was fascinating that Doc Graham spent his later years here. I have come to realize that as I get older, I love the story that each piece of memorabilia tells. And in this case, it has been an enjoyable journey separating fact from fiction and learning about the life of times of Graham.

Here are a couple that I have that I would be open to offers on, but it wouldn't be easy for me to let them go as it took many years to find them. Good luck to everyone on their hunt.

[rhettyeakley]

A lot of what we collect is motivated by emotion and some of that emotion is based in fact, some on nostalgia, and some on fiction.

Not sure why people have to chime in and tell those that collect a certain player that they are “irrational” or implying they are doing it wrong or that it is stupid.

Let people collect what they want, if you have a problem with how they do it you do not, in fact, have to chime in and let them know you do not approve.

Personally i don’t see much different between Graham and Ruth’s “called shot” that people are willing to pay a ton for anything related to that (likely) apocryphal story.

My 2-cents that nobody asked for 🤣

[Seven]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Many aspects of the movie (preumably the book) that were totally wrong . . . really disheartening. Wasnt last game of the season. Didn't retire from baseball after the game. Etc. Etc. Why I have never watched the famous Gehrig or Ruth movies. When film people start making shit up to make it more "dramatic" I ask for my check.

Steve,

No judgement here, but you never watched Pride of the Yankees? Even if some of it is dramatized, Gary Cooper gives an incredible performance. I understand wanting to separate fact from fiction though.

- James