How to Scam and Make $ on eBay...

[mintacular]

This scam model seems to have caught on, the worst of which was a guy named Candiman11 who I think is now banned. I emailed one of his victims telling them the '56 Mantle they paid $500+ was obviously trimmed and the buyer's response was "Yeah, I realize that. Oh well. Live and Learn." So this type of attitude encourages a recycling of a model that appears to work.

First you take an "overview" photo of a card on a dark-ish background (Blue, orange, wood-grain)--show just enough of the card to make it appear possibly in EX or Better shape...but definately not too much. Remember, you have cracked this card from an "A" holder or VGEX or worse one that had a flaw but that flaw can't appear to your new buyer, who is buying on the hope and prayer that it could be Nrmt. Then you add "Incredible, Mint! Pack-fresh" in the title but don't forget the subtitle which include "vibrant color, 100% authentic/untrimmed, razor-sharp corners". Last, in your description b.s a bit more "Nicely centered for this time era, original gloss, and perhaps play up the athelete's accomplishment.

Oops forgot to add that you need a shill account to truly pop your cherry. It's like shooting fish in a barrel.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ht_2802wt_1139

[hunterdutchess]

Good looking out, only thing you can so is look at the sellers feedback left or received and send a message to the buyer letting them know the deal was no good. Here is a Mantle rc for sale that is also bogus: http://cgi.ebay.com/1952-TOPPS-MICKE...#ht_499wt_1154
The seller has been reported but it takes more than one to put a end to a listing.

[CharleyBrown]

Lol when I read your post the first person I thought of was battlefield. I've watched some of their auctions and not only is shilling evident but one has to be suspicious given all the factors you mentioned. Sad to see all the positive feedback and have to wonder if the winners have a clue

[CharleyBrown]

Fits your description exactly:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...T#ht_500wt_757

[hunterdutchess]

Here is another one: http://shop.ebay.com/uncle_bills_tre...id=p4340.l2562

[Jcfowler6]

Thanks for keeping the hobby real guys!

[fkw]

far from illegal, but also far from honest.

A real scam is selling a fake as authentic, or selling just a photo of the card, or selling a card you dont own, thats a scam!

I buy raw all the time but not so I can get it graded and flip. I expect raw cards to be mid grade at best, anything higher is a bonus.

The guys that think they can buy these raw cards and flip them for good profit will learn. They need to pay what the card is worth "raw" not what it may be worth after it gets graded.

[Leon]

This reminds me of a Judge Judy episode. BTW, I love Judge Judy. She so tells it like it is. She must call people "idiots" 5x a show. It's great. Anyway, one of the cases was where someone sold a picture of a cell phone on ebay for around $200. Of course the buyer saw the picture and thought they were getting a real phone. It wasn't even a good picture.....but just a regular ole printed out cell phone picture. The defendants had the gall to say they never said they were selling the phone, but only the picture. (the description was misleading too). What a great case that was. Total scam, and Judge Judy called it the way it was. She told them they needed to get a job, they should be ashamed of themselves and called them idiots, scammers, thiefs and everything else. A classic episode.

As for cards on ebay....no doubt there are a ton of folks trying to play on other folks greed. If the cards shown were truly NRMT or better those sellers know darned well they would sell for more in slabs and they would be graded.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Leon

This reminds me of a Judge Judy episode. BTW, I love Judge Judy. She so tells it like it is. She must call people "idiots" 5x a show. It's great. Anyway, one of the cases was where someone sold a picture of a cell phone on ebay for around $200. Of course the buyer saw the picture and thought they were getting a real phone. It wasn't even a good picture.....but just a regular ole printed out cell phone picture. The defendants had the gall to say they never said they were selling the phone, but only the picture. (the description was misleading too). What a great case that was. Total scam, and Judge Judy called it the way it was. She told them they needed to get a job, they should be ashamed of themselves and called them idiots, scammers, thiefes and everything else. A classic episode.

As for cards on ebay....no doubt there are a ton of folks trying to play on other folks greed. If the cards shown were truly NRMT or better those sellers know darned well they would sell for more in slabs and they would be graded.

Funny, I said almost the same thing about a scammer on the post war side referring to that Judge Judy episode. Here is a link to that episode.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuP1pXSvNJI

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Leon

As for cards on ebay....no doubt there are a ton of folks trying to play on other folks greed.

This is one of the reasons I have absolutely no problem with the “found in grandpa’s attic…don’t know if it’s real…selling it as a reprint” stories. You have to ask yourself, who’s worse? The scammer trying sell some BS story, or the buyer so consumed with their own greed thinking they struck gold and are going to make a lot of money. In my opinion, it’s the buyer with the greed. After all, isn’t greed #2 in the seven deadly sins?

[npa589]

I can see both sides of this. Stupidity on the buyer side, absolutely. On the seller's side of things, it's beyond scumbaggish...

In summation: the parties involved in these auctions are a matchmade in heaven!

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

This is one of the reasons I have absolutely no problem with the “found in grandpa’s attic…don’t know if it’s real…selling it as a reprint” stories. You have to ask yourself, who’s worse? The scammer trying sell some BS story, or the buyer so consumed with their own greed thinking they struck gold and are going to make a lot of money. In my opinion, it’s the buyer with the greed. After all, isn’t greed #2 in the seven deadly sins?

The buyer, who wins a $5,000 card (if real) for $200 may have bid $5,000. Hard to say they were greedy.

[wheels56]

Hey gang,

Brand new to the forums -- been using the site for a few months. Recently, my 9 yr old got into collecting and that naturally got me back into the hobby. We're both hooked. Anyway, I've been slowly starting to put together the Topps sets from the 50s, mostly buying lots of the commons, but starting to move up the food chain. I'm a bit wary given everything I've read in these forums and elsewhere about the dirty side of the hobby.

What finally convinced me to register and join the board was this thread. I've participated in many of the battlefield auctions, but have always had a sinking feeling about them. Just a gut feel that something wasn't quite right.

Anyway, in most of the auctions, I've bowed out early as the prices have run up, but I have won a few (56 aaron, 56 clemente, 55 kaline). My general rule is not to bid more than 1-1.5 grades less than my assessment of the cards given the scans and the description (which are always a bit hyperbolic). I'm very happy with the Kaline and the Aaron, but the Clemente was a bit disappointing. My fault though, because the printing imperfections on his face are clear in the scans, in spite of the "Amazing color and awesome eye appeal!!!" description.

Questions: how can one detect shill bidding? Also, does anyone know anything about this seller or have an alternative point of view? Any recommendations on honest sellers for 50s cards?

fwiw, here is the kaline:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEWNX:IT

and the clemente:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEWNX:IT

1,000 apologies for the novel on my first post. Promise to be more concise in the future!

Cheers,

Jason

[mintacular]

Jason, my original thread was not intended to torpedo Battleship per se but more so point out a raw vintage model that seems to exaggerate a card's "pristine" condition while ignoring obvious flaws. To add insult to injury for me, is that these sellers with the wonderful specimens purposefully do not provide a decent scan....In terms of shilling, others are better experts how to detect this, but I can't help to think many of these auctions have a "shill" account as the final sales prices are much higher than the graded equivalent, and to me for that to happen consistently sets off some red flags. Many of these cards probably have been cracked out of holders OR contain an original flaw that the seller realizes would prevent it from getting a good grade so they don't send it in in the first place. Worse case scenario, some of these guys alter/trim cards to make them appear ultra high-grade.

In short, these auctions are very suspect and should be avoided IMO.

[wheels56]

Makes sense, Patrick. I was reacting more to CharleyBrown's comments on shill bidding and was a bit alarmed because I have participated in several auctions from this seller.

Guess I just want to know if I'm clueless, so I can get a clue.

[npa589]

Here we go again............................................. ..........................


http://cgi.ebay.com/1909-11-TY-COBB-...item3cb8c0ded1

[bobbyw8469]

WOW!! That green one is such a bad fake, that I can't believe anyone is even bidding on these cards!

P.S. I will be bringing more of this collection to Ebay in the next week or two, so please keep a look out. I will combine shipping for multiple orders.

Oh joy! I can hardly wait......

[CharleyBrown]

wheels,

I don't know for sure if Battlefield is doing shill bidding or selling trimmed cards...

I, too, at one point, actually bid on their items. However, things started to get fishy for me as I bid over VCP pricing for the actual grade they are claiming, and saw my bid topped before the final day.

Battlefield states that the cards they are selling are all from her husband's collection. What I don't understand is how they have already listed at least 2-3 '55 Clementes, 2-3 '53 J. Robinson's, 4 '55 Killebrews... etc. Some of them looking like the exact same card from before.

For 1, I wonder why they wouldn't get them graded. It's clear that they have graded cards, as they have a 1950 Bowman PSA 4 J. Robinson up for auction now. Why would they not send in the other cards to be graded to command a better price on all of the cards?

The second thing that raises my eyebrows is that perhaps they don't have 2-3 of the Clemente's, etc., but rather, a shill bid won the auction, and thus, they are relisting the item.

I hope for your sake that everything is kosher. She does guarantee that all cards are unaltered. I would be interested in seeing how your cards grade at PSA. Are you going to submit them?

Some of Battlefield's new items below:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ROBERTO-CLEMENTE...ht_2798wt_1070

http://cgi.ebay.com/SATCHELL-PAIGE-1...ht_2811wt_1070

http://cgi.ebay.com/JACKIE-ROBINSON-...ht_2811wt_1070

[scooter729]

One thing I always watch for when considering whether shilling is occurring is if there are bids which fall just short of milestone prices. Typically, I get leery when I see bids of something like $99.99 or things along those lines. With bids like that, it would allow a bid of $100 to get driven up to its max, without exceeding that bid.

With that said, I know some people do use that bidding mentality. I have someone bidding on a few of my auctions on eBay right now using that strategy, and I wonder why. I'd love to hear a thought if anyone knows why a normal bidder (non-shiller) would use bids of $9.99, $49.99, etc. and not something like $10.05 or $50.02 to try and just beat a milestone number and not fall shy of it.

[scooter729]

Originally Posted by scooter729

One thing I always watch for when considering whether shilling is occurring is if there are bids which fall just short of milestone prices. Typically, I get leery when I see bids of something like $99.99 or things along those lines. With bids like that, it would allow a bid of $100 to get driven up to its max, without exceeding that bid.

With that said, I know some people do use that bidding mentality. I have someone bidding on a few of my auctions on eBay right now using that strategy, and I wonder why. I'd love to hear a thought if anyone knows why a normal bidder (non-shiller) would use bids of $9.99, $49.99, etc. and not something like $10.05 or $50.02 to try and just beat a milestone number and not fall shy of it.

I just saw a perfect textbook example of the shilling example I referenced above - a brand-new bidder just joined eBay and has made only two bids, both from the same seller despite the items being totally different items (a baseball jersey and a presidential item), while the bid was done for $499, in order to drive the other bidder's price up to the $500 threshold.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Benjamin-Harriso...item4aabd1c931

[wheels56]

this thread has been very helpful. thanks for everyone's thoughtful responses. that last example looks totally blatant, scooter. wow. :-(

haven't seen anything that obvious in the battlefield auctions. i've had some of the exact same concerns others have raised though. e.g., they currently have a 56 koufax up. this is at least the 4th one of these they've had. makes me leery of the whole "from my personal collection" bit. when i first started bidding, i contacted a few winning bidders and they all shared similar concerns but had been converted. at one point, I found two 56 koufax scans that I thought were identical. even contacted them about it. happy to share that correspondence with anyone that PMs me.

also, the fact that they have a second account (at least) is another troubling sign. war_eagle_vintage

anyway, i've beat this one to death. buyer beware, i guess. i may send the kaline in to PSA just for the heck of it. if i do, i'll follow up.

again, appreciate all of the thoughtful replies. really glad i joined the board!

jason

[mintacular]

There was also another example where they described this Koufax as "perfectly centered": http://cgi.ebay.com/DON-DRYSDALE-196...ht_2841wt_1139 And another "great centered" card! (LOL): http://cgi.ebay.com/BROOKS-ROBINSON-...ht_2827wt_1139 You might think of this as nitpicking, but if they are grossly exaggerating or lying about things very visible to the eye they are either dishonest and/or incompetent--both of which will likely result in an overgraded card

[CharleyBrown]

Little update about Battlefield..

I decided for S&G to purchase a '55 Topps J. Robinson that they listed as being superb, stunning, etc. just to see how it would grade.

Just got my PSA poppage today - the superb card came back an astonishing PSA 3.

I can't say that I'm surprised.

[vintagerookies51]

Can someone tell me how this has "near-perfect centering as stated in the subtitle? http://cgi.ebay.com/1954-Topps-Ted-W...item2a132bebfd

[brob28]

Shaun can you post a pic of the card? Just curious how it looks and what was the reason for the grade.


One thing that puts up a red flag for me with many sellers is if they only have Nm type ungraded cards and none in lower grade. I mean really, what are the chances that every collection these people buy have only Nm quality cards? I would expect at some point some auctions of lower grade cards/lots or do these sellers not want to soil their reputation by listing the dogs!

[CharleyBrown]

That was their image. Their subtitle also stated: Perfect Centering, Strong Corners, and Stunning Color.

I don't have my own scan of it, though I will scan it in once I receive my submission from PSA.

I saw that it was ending at a price that I'd be willing to pay to simply prove a point, bid on it, and won it. I bid on it from my phone, and only saw the image afterwards. The top left corner looked weak to me, and the centering was definitely not perfect.

When I received the card, I was not exactly amazed by its "stunning color", and the card was not quite as superb as they stated. I had sent them a message prior to receiving the card about the top left corner, and the falsely stated title and subtitle. They stood by their titling, and said that if I was so unhappy with the card, I shouldn't have bid on it, and I could return it. I wouldn't say that they were impolite, but they were definitely adamant about their way of listing things.

My intentions on buying the card were to send it into PSA just to show how off their listings were, and I needed a '55 Topps for my J. Robinson anyway. I figured it would kill two birds with one stone until I felt like upgrading to a much higher grade.

After receiving the card, I figured the card would come back a 4 due to the not so strong corners, and the less than stunning color that it had. I guess even I overestimated the grade of the card.

If there is one thing to take away from this grade, it's to read their titles, and know that the opposite of what they are saying is the actual reality.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Why haven't you left negative feedback?

[CharleyBrown]

Just realized that I can still leave feedback by going through my purchase history...

Now to decide if I should contact them again, or if I should simply leave the negative feedback.

[bobbyw8469]

May I ask what VCP grade level you paid for that card? I am guessing you overpaid for it?

[CharleyBrown]

Bobby, I paid around $170, so yes, I clearly overpaid for the card. Overpaying isn't a huge deal to me, though. I knew deep down when bidding that I was overpaying. It was more about proving the point that their listings are bogus.

[Brendan]

Originally Posted by CharleyBrown

Just realized that I can still leave feedback by going through my purchase history...

Now to decide if I should contact them again, or if I should simply leave the negative feedback.

I'd be curious to know how they could keep 100% feedback for so long while clearly overstating the card's grade. Why don't you message them so you can find out? Maybe they'll try and pay you or something?

[U240robert]

I remember 15 or so years ago you could do well
buying raw cards off of Ebay and getting them graded.
It seems that mentality is still prevalent with some, and yes it's
greed. These shady dealers, although not actually breaking laws, are skating on the edge of the law and definitely unethical.
In most cases they seem to deal in cards under $1000- which makes
a difficult case. If it was a huge amount, it's possible the law would be all over dealers like this. But it's not worth it for cards that sell for a few hundred if that.

Now Candiman11, I dealt with him a few times. I agree with what was originally said. He always would photograph the cards at an angle so you couldn't quite see the condition accurately. Then he makes a disclaimer that he doesn't 'grade' cards. If you're a dealer then you should be able to grade cards.
I bought cards from him a few times, nothing big mostly '71 and '72 Topps. I sent back my last order as being not acceptable . He refunded my money probably cause the order was 20 cards and thats alot of negatives to leave.

One of my fondest ebay memories came from him.
I bid on '72 Clemente, '72 Mays, '71 Ryan, '72 Fisk, '72 Carew- among the 20 or so. The last 4 hrs of the auction, the ebay search function went down. You couldn't search for cards. Only way you could bid was if you already had a bid in.
Well for less than $40 I got all those cards. The Ryan was $7 the Clemente was $4
When I got the cards in the mail, I was pleased with the condition.
Ironically, ebay sent me an email with a 10% discount on my next order.
If I was the dealer I would have been furious.

[CharleyBrown]

I reached out to the seller again tonight, as I thought it was the best thing to do before leaving negative feedback.

They were very apologetic, and offered to either take the card for a full refund, plus pay for return shipping and PSA grading fees, or allow me to keep the card for a partial refund. I still am not a fan of the way they list and title their auctions, though at least they owned up to it in this case.

[ctownboy]

I say leave them a Negative.

I think they know what they are doing because:

1) They don't get the cards graded.
2) They have scans that don't show the flaws in the card
3) They have descriptions that are not accurate.

If you return the card or take a refund, they continue to get away with what they are doing. If you leave a Negative then maybe people will see that and think twice about bidding on their cards or bidding higher on their cards.

By paying you off, they are making money in the long run, as compared to getting a Negative for not accurately describing their cards.

David

[Brendan]

If I were you I'd take the partial refund and leave a negative.

A nice fat negative with bad DSR's would really hurt them.

[itjclarke]

But I was watching this auction throughout, and have watched several others from the previously mentioned sellers. I cannot believe the sales price! This card is being adverstised with two hairline creases, which per PSA cannot grade higher than a 4 technically. That means this card cannot be higher than a 4, and could very possibly grade lower. However it sold for nearly $600 more than the most recent PSA-4 did.. it even got more than the last two PSA-5 T202 Cobb's!!! How???

http://www.ebay.com/itm/140593441215...84.m1423.l2649

Also interesting to note two of the high bidders have only bid this sellers auctions.. 100%. I hate to point a finger without knowing facts, but this looks really shady to me.

[Doug]

Here's another winner: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Topps-M...-/320747273728 The guy actually says it's a reprint, but selling it in a fake PSA holder is just a bit much...

[mintacular]

This guy must have a shill acct to because he has run of the mill o/c '55 ex commons going for $12+

[hunterdutchess]

Not sure if he is shilling but this seller is 4 sure. All the auctions are private.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/techmarina/m...id=p4340.l2562