NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it. . Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. When you click on links to eBay on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
ebay GSB
T206s on eBay
Babe Ruth Cards on eBay
t206 Ty Cobb on eBay
Ty Cobb Cards on eBay
Lou Gehrig Cards on eBay
Baseball T201-T217 on eBay
Baseball E90-E107 on eBay
T205 Cards on eBay
Baseball Postcards on eBay
Goudey Cards on eBay
Baseball Memorabilia on eBay
Baseball Exhibit Cards on eBay
Baseball Strip Cards on eBay
Baseball Baking Cards on eBay
Sporting News Cards on eBay
Play Ball Cards on eBay
Joe DiMaggio Cards on eBay
Mickey Mantle Cards on eBay
Bowman 1951-1955 on eBay
Football Cards on eBay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #101  
Old 10-18-2013, 07:02 PM
autograf's Avatar
autograf autograf is offline
Tom Boblitt
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 2,011
Default

You know.....you can pretty much say anything as long as you preface it 'respectfully' or 'in all due respect'.....
Reply With Quote
  #102  
Old 10-18-2013, 07:24 PM
the 'stache's Avatar
the 'stache the 'stache is offline
Bill Gregory
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Flower Mound, Texas
Posts: 3,915
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottFandango View Post
getting popcorn....................
+1

__________________
Building these sets: T206, 1953 Bowman Color, 1975 Topps.

Great transactions with: piedmont150, Cardboard Junkie, z28jd, t206blogcom, tinkertoeverstochance, trobba, Texxxx, marcdelpercio, t206hound, zachs, tolstoi, IronHorse 2130, AndyG09, BBT206, jtschantz, lug-nut, leaflover, Abravefan11, mpemulis, btcarfagno, BlueSky, and Frankbmd.
Reply With Quote
  #103  
Old 10-18-2013, 07:34 PM
RGold's Avatar
RGold RGold is offline
Ronald Goldberg
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Leawood, Kansas
Posts: 480
Default

I went to Burger King today and my Whopper didn't look anything like the picture.



And, don't get me started on Nutrisystem's pictures.

__________________
Check out my website www.imageevent.com/rgold
Reply With Quote
  #104  
Old 10-18-2013, 10:28 PM
steve B steve B is offline
Steve Birmingham
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: eastern Mass.
Posts: 8,069
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tschock View Post
Steve,

Just to clarify. My comment wasn't directed at you (or anyone in particular).

And you are correct about needing to follow up with specific items/bidders. My "sample" shows 8 retractions as the highest, but my sample only grabbed 150 bidders (and I didn't filter out which completed items, so it could have been grabbing $20 sales as well, meaning there are other things that can be tweaked). When you start grabbing more, you only need to start at the highest # and work down. I think there were those here that "found" bidders in the 50s for retractions. But even double digit retractions alone should start to give one pause. That is, if the seller actually wants to deal with this.
I didn't take it as anything personal.

I'm not all that shy about putting my opinions out there on technical issues.
But part of that is that if I get it wrong I'm ok with admitting it.
I don't like being wrong and try to avoid it, but it happens.

Steve B
Reply With Quote
  #105  
Old 10-18-2013, 10:38 PM
steve B steve B is offline
Steve Birmingham
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: eastern Mass.
Posts: 8,069
Default

For what it's worth my scanner - Epson perfection 2400, with the updated version of the twain driver/scanning software - Auto corrects brightness depending on the object and background. It usually comes out accurate to what I see. The only thing I adjust is the DPI, but using different settings like document or and I'm probably off on the numbers, 16 or 24 bit color will produce slightly different results.

Steve B
Reply With Quote
  #106  
Old 10-18-2013, 11:07 PM
thehoodedcoder thehoodedcoder is offline
Kevin Qui.nn
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 780
Default

delete

kevin

Last edited by thehoodedcoder; 10-18-2013 at 11:08 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #107  
Old 10-18-2013, 11:16 PM
thehoodedcoder thehoodedcoder is offline
Kevin Qui.nn
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 780
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
"At any rate, I greatly appreciate Brent responding and that is a major, MAJOR first step that I think everyone here can respect."

Given that he started his post with a blatant lie (saying he had never heard the concern about scans before, when he had made a lengthy response to a thread on CU on precisely that point just a few months ago, as posted above), I respectfullly dissent from that assessment.

all of this is important and with all due respect.... your posts are every other reply on every schill bidding thread in the forum. you must have a day job or something right?

of course you disagree. every other reply as i am reading this. and on every other thread.

id have to dig back through your posts to find out the last time you made a post about something other than corruption in the hobby?


i think we need a fraud section so people that want to continue to harp on the same topic 17 hours a day can do it in a section all its own. every time i turn around there is another one of these and its the same 5 people pounding it every 10 minutes to the top of the topic list.

kevin

Last edited by thehoodedcoder; 10-18-2013 at 11:31 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #108  
Old 10-19-2013, 03:06 AM
deucetwins's Avatar
deucetwins deucetwins is offline
Jeff C.
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 179
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thehoodedcoder View Post
all of this is important and with all due respect.... your posts are every other reply on every schill bidding thread in the forum. you must have a day job or something right?

of course you disagree. every other reply as i am reading this. and on every other thread.

id have to dig back through your posts to find out the last time you made a post about something other than corruption in the hobby?


i think we need a fraud section so people that want to continue to harp on the same topic 17 hours a day can do it in a section all its own. every time i turn around there is another one of these and its the same 5 people pounding it every 10 minutes to the top of the topic list.

kevin
+1. Getting kinda old. Shilling is just part of the auction biz. Same as sniping.
Reply With Quote
  #109  
Old 10-19-2013, 03:41 AM
toledo_mudhen's Avatar
toledo_mudhen toledo_mudhen is offline
Lonnie Nagel
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: St. Joe, Missouri
Posts: 1,352
Default

Anathema was originally used as a term for exile from the church, but evolved to mean "set apart, banished, denounced". The word comes from Koine Greek ἀνάθεμα,[1] meaning "something dedicated, especially dedicated to evil", from ἀνατίθημι (anatithēmi), meaning "offer as a votive gift", from ἀνά (ana), meaning "on", and τίθημι (tithēmi), meaning "I put". It originally meant something lifted up as an offering to the gods; it later evolved to mean:

to be formally set apart;
banished, exiled, excommunicated;
denounced, sometimes accursed

"Anathema" is a word used mainly in the English language to describe vehement disagreement to something. It is not a commonly used word, particularly in spoken language, perhaps because its meaning is often confused.
__________________
Lonnie Nagel
T206 : 168/520 : 32.1%
Reply With Quote
  #110  
Old 10-19-2013, 04:20 AM
frankbmd's Avatar
frankbmd frankbmd is offline
Fr@nk Burke++
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Between the 1st tee and the 19th hole
Posts: 7,225
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by toledo_mudhen View Post
Anathema was originally used as a term for exile from the church, but evolved to mean "set apart, banished, denounced". The word comes from Koine Greek ἀνάθεμα,[1] meaning "something dedicated, especially dedicated to evil", from ἀνατίθημι (anatithēmi), meaning "offer as a votive gift", from ἀνά (ana), meaning "on", and τίθημι (tithēmi), meaning "I put". It originally meant something lifted up as an offering to the gods; it later evolved to mean:

to be formally set apart;
banished, exiled, excommunicated;
denounced, sometimes accursed

"Anathema" is a word used mainly in the English language to describe vehement disagreement to something. It is not a commonly used word, particularly in spoken language, perhaps because its meaning is often confused.
At the spelling bee
Moderator: "ANATHEMATIC"
Contestant: "Anathematic" (Pause) "Can you use that in a sentence please?"
Moderator: "Baseball fans find logistics in statistics and therfore infrequently find mathematics anathematic."

Contestant: (Pause) "Anathematic...A-N-A-T-H-E-M-A-T-I-C-E-I-E-I-O"
__________________
FRANK:BUR:KETT - RAUCOUS SPORTS CARD FORUM MEMBER AND MONSTER NUMBER FATHER.

GOOD FOR THE HOBBY AND THE FORUM WITH A VAULT IN AN UNDISCLOSED LOCATION FILLED WITH NON-FUNGIBLES


274/1000 Monster Number


Nearly*1000* successful B/S/T transactions completed in 2012-24.
Over 680 sales with satisfied Board members served.
If you want fries with your order, just speak up.
Thank you all.



Now nearly PQ.

Last edited by frankbmd; 10-19-2013 at 04:24 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #111  
Old 10-19-2013, 06:20 AM
calvindog's Avatar
calvindog calvindog is offline
Jeffrey Lichtman
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,488
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyseymour View Post
Nevermind Brent, then - what do you plan to do about the problem? As far as I can tell, Jeff, you are long on complaints, as legitimate as they may be, and short on solutions. Whether Brent wins Boy Scout Trooper of the Year is not the issue - the greater issue is, how do we stop AH's from jacking up their scans?
How do the victims stop the fraud? Is that what you're asking?

Simple: we can make complaints to law enforcement or we can sue them. That's the only thing that seems to slow the fraud down it seems. Outing them here publicly just causes numerous sheep and others financially aligned with the crooked auction houses to jump up and try to silence those who point out the fraud. You should go look at the threads from 2006 and 2007 and see how many Net 54 stalwarts defended Doug Allen and Bill Mastro from fraud allegations.
Reply With Quote
  #112  
Old 10-19-2013, 06:33 AM
ullmandds's Avatar
ullmandds ullmandds is offline
pete ullman
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: saint paul, mn
Posts: 11,230
Default

What I'd like to know is are these consignment based ebay clearing houses providing the shillers...or are the consigners doing the shilling?

I'm guessing a little of both?
Reply With Quote
  #113  
Old 10-19-2013, 06:47 AM
calvindog's Avatar
calvindog calvindog is offline
Jeffrey Lichtman
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,488
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ullmandds View Post
What I'd like to know is are these consignment based ebay clearing houses providing the shillers...or are the consigners doing the shilling?

I'm guessing a little of both?
Who knows. In Mastro's case it was surely both. But they could see their consigners bidding on their own auctions at times so I wouldn't say they were absolved from that type of fraud.
Reply With Quote
  #114  
Old 10-19-2013, 07:13 AM
CobbvLajoie1910 CobbvLajoie1910 is offline
Aa.ron Pa.tton
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: OH
Posts: 232
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thehoodedcoder View Post
all of this is important and with all due respect.... your posts are every other reply on every schill bidding thread in the forum. you must have a day job or something right?

of course you disagree. every other reply as i am reading this. and on every other thread.

id have to dig back through your posts to find out the last time you made a post about something other than corruption in the hobby?


i think we need a fraud section so people that want to continue to harp on the same topic 17 hours a day can do it in a section all its own. every time i turn around there is another one of these and its the same 5 people pounding it every 10 minutes to the top of the topic list.

kevin

Says he who has been a member of this board for a year.

Peter has been a regular poster well prior to the current incarnation of Net54.
I'm pretty sure he's earned some latitude to speak up about it.

I think he, Jeff, and many others, have grown quite tired (and understandably so) of having to check their back pocket at every turn -- to make sure their wallet is still there.

I miss these boards (and it's core posters) circa 2006, 2007. Those were good days.

Last edited by CobbvLajoie1910; 10-19-2013 at 07:30 AM. Reason: Content
Reply With Quote
  #115  
Old 10-19-2013, 07:13 AM
Ease's Avatar
Ease Ease is offline
Eric Shaeffer
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 705
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ullmandds View Post
What I'd like to know is are these consignment based ebay clearing houses providing the shillers...or are the consigners doing the shilling?

I'm guessing a little of both?
I feel like its gotta be predominately consignors doing the shilling, the big ebay clearing houses just provide the open door/avenue for shilling.
Reply With Quote
  #116  
Old 10-19-2013, 08:12 AM
thehoodedcoder thehoodedcoder is offline
Kevin Qui.nn
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 780
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CobbvLajoie1910 View Post
Says he who has been a member of this board for a year.

Peter has been a regular poster well prior to the current incarnation of Net54.
I'm pretty sure he's earned some latitude to speak up about it.

I think he, Jeff, and many others, have grown quite tired (and understandably so) of having to check their back pocket at every turn -- to make sure their wallet is still there.

I miss these boards (and it's core posters) circa 2006, 2007. Those were good days.
yea. i said "with all due respect", as i have nothing against the guy or anyone else in here.

its getting old. 80 percent of his last posts are about something that is "wrong" whether it is schill bidding, cards sitting on ebay to long, scan enhancements with some. do we really need to fill this board up with these threads every time a single one is found?

coooome on. they have a place but its ridiculous. some people just love and need drama in their lives. i would say that people that feel the need to pound these threads until they are pancake thin.

and yes, as a board member for a year with over 500 posts, i can tell you that when i come on here and the only constructive thing getting talked about is that then i have less desire to visit frequently.

the last thing i want to do is have my hobby turn into Days of our Lives. while its important to out some one, im not certian why others feel the need to soley focus on that as their lifes mission.

since there are so many of those people, we really could use a seperate section where those people can go, and be miserable about the hobby and leave the rest of everyone else to the brighter side of things.

im certian others feel the same way.

kevin
Reply With Quote
  #117  
Old 10-19-2013, 08:17 AM
ullmandds's Avatar
ullmandds ullmandds is offline
pete ullman
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: saint paul, mn
Posts: 11,230
Default

with all due respect...after thousands of posts and decades of collecting vintage...you run out of things to discuss. i mean there aren't many cards I haven't seen in my life?!

this is a timely subject that affects us all. just because many of you want to just continue to live in your own little bubbles...continue to sweep the shit under the rug...protect your "investments" or ignore because you are benefitting from this corruption...eventually the shit pile will become overwhelming to the point it must be cleaned up.

housing bubble, banking debacle, gov't clusterf&ck...I realize this is just baseball cards...but if we continue to ignore...and let the crooks continue their crookery...nothing will ever change.

keeping this topic at the forefront is the only way that things could possibly change!
Reply With Quote
  #118  
Old 10-19-2013, 08:28 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,178
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ullmandds View Post
with all due respect...after thousands of posts and decades of collecting vintage...you run out of things to discuss. i mean there aren't many cards I haven't seen in my life?!

this is a timely subject that affects us all. just because many of you want to just continue to live in your own little bubbles...continue to sweep the shit under the rug...protect your "investments" or ignore because you are benefitting from this corruption...eventually the shit pile will become overwhelming to the point it must be cleaned up.

housing bubble, banking debacle, gov't clusterf&ck...I realize this is just baseball cards...but if we continue to ignore...and let the crooks continue their crookery...nothing will ever change.

keeping this topic at the forefront is the only way that things could possibly change!
Maybe it's time for another thread about which grading service do you prefer?


Kevin, that's cool, our priorities are different, so just ignore my posts if they bore you.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #119  
Old 10-19-2013, 08:32 AM
novakjr novakjr is offline
David Nova.kovich Jr.
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: 20 miles east of the Mistake
Posts: 2,269
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ease View Post
I feel like its gotta be predominately consignors doing the shilling, the big ebay clearing houses just provide the open door/avenue for shilling.
And ebay allows for the deniability on both ends. Because ultimately, ebay allows the bidder information to be hidden, from the buyers, pwcc and the consignors, and leaves everything to speculation.

Essentially, the items are consigned twice. Once to pwcc, and then again to ebay, adding another link to the chain of command, and allowing both parties to either point the finger at the other, or(more than likely in this case) to claim that bids that appear fraudulent, or fluky, are just part of the amateur nature of ebay bidding in general.. We've all seen legitimately indecisive, idiot, flaky bidders before. Not just on ebay, but even in our own b/s/t forums here. But Ebay's setup, hides bidder info(unlike here), and allows those types to ultimately be blamed, even when they aren't involved..

Both consignors and pwcc, are aware of the loopholes that ebay allows them to take advantage of. And that is why they are still on ebay in the first place, instead of running their own auctions... Why keep letting ebay take a cut, when they could just do it themselves? Well, because they wouldn't do as well, and then they'd ultimately be accountable for anything seemingly shady.. The extra money from bid manipulation, far outweighs the fees from ebay.. Don't get me wrong, I don't think pwcc is doing the manipulation, BUT I think they know it's going on, and continue to turn a blind eye to it. Why? Well, because it benefits them..

I truly believe, they used ebay as a launching pad for a legitimate business, BUT there comes a point when you decide it's better off to stay in a system that allows for manipulation, than to move on to one in which you can't, because you'd shorten the paper trail, and ultimately open yourself up for accountability.

Last edited by novakjr; 10-19-2013 at 08:36 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #120  
Old 10-19-2013, 08:33 AM
ullmandds's Avatar
ullmandds ullmandds is offline
pete ullman
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: saint paul, mn
Posts: 11,230
Default

pete...i'd much rather talk about how to go about beginning to collect T206...now that's interesting!
Reply With Quote
  #121  
Old 10-19-2013, 08:35 AM
cyseymour's Avatar
cyseymour cyseymour is offline
Ja,mie B.
member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 662
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by calvindog View Post
How do the victims stop the fraud? Is that what you're asking?

Simple: we can make complaints to law enforcement or we can sue them. That's the only thing that seems to slow the fraud down it seems. Outing them here publicly just causes numerous sheep and others financially aligned with the crooked auction houses to jump up and try to silence those who point out the fraud. You should go look at the threads from 2006 and 2007 and see how many Net 54 stalwarts defended Doug Allen and Bill Mastro from fraud allegations.
I don't think that suing them is a workable option. You'd have to prove damages, which could be complicated, and I seriously doubt that many hobbyists want to get involved with a civil suit.

So you are pretty much talking about making complaints to law enforcement. It is not a terrible idea, but personally, I do not want to get involved at that level at this time. I recently (knowingly) bought two cards with jacked up scans, so yes it is annoying. But you and Peter are the lawyers, I am not that comfortable getting mixed up in those types of things, so I will leave it to you guys. Good luck!

And I agree that many folks are getting tired of the endless shill bidding/scan editing threads. Switching the scanner settings or not, I do not believe Brent H to be the scourge of this hobby.
Reply With Quote
  #122  
Old 10-19-2013, 08:47 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,178
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ullmandds View Post
pete...i'd much rather talk about how to go about beginning to collect T206...now that's interesting!
Which background color is your favorite?
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #123  
Old 10-19-2013, 08:53 AM
calvindog's Avatar
calvindog calvindog is offline
Jeffrey Lichtman
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,488
Default

What's your top 5 T206 portraits?
Reply With Quote
  #124  
Old 10-19-2013, 08:55 AM
Leon's Avatar
Leon Leon is offline
Leon
peasant/forum owner
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: near Dallas
Posts: 34,159
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Which background color is your favorite?

Pink.....................I am sorry, what are we talking about?
__________________
Leon Luckey
Reply With Quote
  #125  
Old 10-19-2013, 08:57 AM
calvindog's Avatar
calvindog calvindog is offline
Jeffrey Lichtman
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,488
Default

How do you display your T206s?
Reply With Quote
  #126  
Old 10-19-2013, 08:58 AM
Leon's Avatar
Leon Leon is offline
Leon
peasant/forum owner
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: near Dallas
Posts: 34,159
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by calvindog View Post
How do you display your T206s?
Why do people collect T206s?
__________________
Leon Luckey
Reply With Quote
  #127  
Old 10-19-2013, 09:02 AM
Iron Horse's Avatar
Iron Horse Iron Horse is offline
Ruben
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 752
Default

I like my T206 portraits to be Bright
__________________
Ruben
Reply With Quote
  #128  
Old 10-19-2013, 09:02 AM
bnorth's Avatar
bnorth bnorth is online now
Ben North
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 9,764
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon View Post
Why do people collect T206s?
I blame my collecting of the T206 cards directly on this forum.

Before I became a member I never even considered collecting them. I am glad I became a member.
Reply With Quote
  #129  
Old 10-19-2013, 09:06 AM
ullmandds's Avatar
ullmandds ullmandds is offline
pete ullman
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: saint paul, mn
Posts: 11,230
Default

Even in mockery...t206 cant be denied?
Reply With Quote
  #130  
Old 10-19-2013, 09:52 AM
thehoodedcoder thehoodedcoder is offline
Kevin Qui.nn
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 780
Default

instead of complaining about it day in and day out with ...eh...some proof...

how about change your approach since clearly that is not working.

how about someone just start testing the limits, recording what they are doing with dates, times, auction houses and auctions, such as winning their own auctions

...and seeing if what if anything is done about it by the auction house, then reporting that here first hand with screen shots, email conversations etc.

....much like the the secret shopper theives.

when someone confronts with, undeniable evidence where they have ALL of the facts it will be much more credible than sitting around, speculating and waiting for the auction houses to happen upon a thread and give some lame middle of the road answer so everyone can move on from the conversation.

do some evidence gathering and recon instead just bitching about what is wrong. in the long run if you feel that strongly about it you can then turn that evidence over to someone that can do something about it.

hell, even start a donation bin where you can donate items for consignment or dollars to go towards bidding for anyone that is so inclined to clean up the hobby. i will guess is that no one will go so far as to become johnny justice at their own expense for the good of the hobby.

stop bitching and start doing if you plan to make a difference. talking does nothing expcept spur argument and debate about something that will NEVER change until something is DONE about it.

kevin

Last edited by thehoodedcoder; 10-19-2013 at 09:56 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #131  
Old 10-19-2013, 10:01 AM
Rob D. Rob D. is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,422
Default

Kevin,

There aren't many people on 54 whose posts I look forward to reading. You are definitely one of them. Please don't stop doing what you do.
Reply With Quote
  #132  
Old 10-19-2013, 10:06 AM
calvindog's Avatar
calvindog calvindog is offline
Jeffrey Lichtman
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,488
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thehoodedcoder View Post
instead of complaining about it day in and day out with ...eh...some proof...

how about change your approach since clearly that is not working.

how about someone just start testing the limits, recording what they are doing with dates, times, auction houses and auctions, such as winning their own auctions

...and seeing if what if anything is done about it by the auction house, then reporting that here first hand with screen shots, email conversations etc.

....much like the the secret shopper theives.

when someone confronts with, undeniable evidence where they have ALL of the facts it will be much more credible than sitting around, speculating and waiting for the auction houses to happen upon a thread and give some lame middle of the road answer so everyone can move on from the conversation.

do some evidence gathering and recon instead just bitching about what is wrong. in the long run if you feel that strongly about it you can then turn that evidence over to someone that can do something about it.

hell, even start a donation bin where you can donate items for consignment or dollars to go towards bidding for anyone that is so inclined to clean up the hobby. i will guess is that no one will go so far as to become johnny justice at their own expense for the good of the hobby.

stop bitching and start doing if you plan to make a difference. talking does nothing expcept spur argument and debate about something that will NEVER change until something is DONE about it.

kevin
Are you some kind of idiot? Seriously? Do you know how many people who sell cards or memorabilia for a living have been subpoenaed to grand juries? Who have been indicted? Who have plead guilty to felonies? Who have been successfully sued for fraud? Do you know how much of this has occurred due to this board?
Reply With Quote
  #133  
Old 10-19-2013, 08:46 PM
slipk1068's Avatar
slipk1068 slipk1068 is offline
Dav1d Sh1p$ey
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: NY
Posts: 866
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thehoodedcoder View Post
id have to dig back through your posts to find out the last time you made a post about something other than corruption in the hobby?

I left the hobby for over 20 years because of the fraud. I am slowly getting back into it, and would prefer not to have to leave it again. I for 1, appreciate you folks enlightening me to potential risks, and pointing out the fraud.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deucetwins View Post
+1. Getting kinda old. Shilling is just part of the auction biz. Same as sniping.
Are you seriously comparing shilling to sniping?
Reply With Quote
  #134  
Old 10-19-2013, 08:48 PM
Leon's Avatar
Leon Leon is offline
Leon
peasant/forum owner
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: near Dallas
Posts: 34,159
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by slipk1068 View Post


Are you seriously comparing shilling to sniping?
Well, one is legal and one is illegal. Besides that they are the same.
__________________
Leon Luckey
Reply With Quote
  #135  
Old 10-19-2013, 09:34 PM
drcy's Avatar
drcy drcy is offline
David Ru.dd Cycl.eback
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3,464
Default

A snipe is just a method of placing a bid. It could be used for shilling or quasi hidden reserves, but lots of snipe bids are placed by genuine bidders trying to win the lot.

Last edited by drcy; 10-19-2013 at 10:11 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #136  
Old 10-20-2013, 06:48 PM
deucetwins's Avatar
deucetwins deucetwins is offline
Jeff C.
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 179
Default

Wasn't trying to compare. Just stating that both are present in the auction business.
Reply With Quote
  #137  
Old 10-21-2013, 10:27 AM
jhs5120's Avatar
jhs5120 jhs5120 is offline
Jason S!m@nds
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 867
Default

Can someone post a picture of an item in his most recent auction that had crazy scanner settings?

I think his pictures are the best in the hobby.
Reply With Quote
  #138  
Old 10-21-2013, 10:50 AM
Runscott's Avatar
Runscott Runscott is offline
Belltown Vintage
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 10,645
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve B View Post
For what it's worth my scanner - Epson perfection 2400, with the updated version of the twain driver/scanning software - Auto corrects brightness depending on the object and background. It usually comes out accurate to what I see. The only thing I adjust is the DPI, but using different settings like document or and I'm probably off on the numbers, 16 or 24 bit color will produce slightly different results.

Steve B
Steve, some people don't seem to understand technology. If you take a photo and it doesn't look like what you saw, you 'fix' it to be more accurate - you are trying to capture an image of real life, not of what the technology thinks it looks like. Scanners can be the same way. If the resulting contrast or color is not representative of what the item actually looks like, then you should change it.

I've heard people state that an item "looks even better than it did in the auction scan". My thinking is that the auction scan should have been modified to more accurately reflect the item's image.

The answer is not to say that a seller must deal with the technology he is given, without using it's settings - the answer is for sellers to be honest.
__________________
$co++ Forre$+
Reply With Quote
  #139  
Old 10-21-2013, 12:19 PM
WhenItWasAHobby's Avatar
WhenItWasAHobby WhenItWasAHobby is offline
Dan Marke1
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Houston-area
Posts: 650
Default

__________________
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke

"It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." - Mark Twain
Reply With Quote
  #140  
Old 10-21-2013, 01:22 PM
1880nonsports's Avatar
1880nonsports 1880nonsports is offline
Hen.ry Mos.es
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,444
Default Scott

Quote:
Originally Posted by Runscott View Post
Steve, some people don't seem to understand technology. If you take a photo and it doesn't look like what you saw, you 'fix' it to be more accurate - you are trying to capture an image of real life, not of what the technology thinks it looks like. Scanners can be the same way. If the resulting contrast or color is not representative of what the item actually looks like, then you should change it.

I've heard people state that an item "looks even better than it did in the auction scan". My thinking is that the auction scan should have been modified to more accurately reflect the item's image.

The answer is not to say that a seller must deal with the technology he is given, without using it's settings - the answer is for sellers to be honest.
I agree wholeheartedly with that. BTW I wanted to note my appreciation for your postings - they are always well written (well unless you haven't had your coffee or beer) and I most often find them to be on point or interesting........
Reply With Quote
  #141  
Old 10-21-2013, 01:59 PM
calvindog's Avatar
calvindog calvindog is offline
Jeffrey Lichtman
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,488
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Runscott View Post
The answer is not to say that a seller must deal with the technology he is given, without using it's settings - the answer is for sellers to be honest.
But what about those who have a financial interest in the seller or his fraud -- how will they manage to eat?
Reply With Quote
  #142  
Old 10-21-2013, 03:11 PM
cyseymour's Avatar
cyseymour cyseymour is offline
Ja,mie B.
member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 662
Default

Personally, I really don't like the idea of changing the scanner settings. A photograph is a work of art - the photographer is the artist and entitled to fix it however they wish. But a scan is really something that is a matter of record in the sense that it is representing something else, which itself is a work of art (or memorabilia). It's a subtle difference, but it's a major difference. Auctioneers aren't artists whom ought to be figuring their own interpretation of a card.

Sometimes cards do look better in real life than in a scan, but if an auction house is having that issue, they really ought to replace their scanner. Scanners these days do extraordinary work at capturing an image, especially with the new technology available. Anyone with a strong knowledge of technology will realize that there is no need to adjust the scanner settings at all.

Look at Just Collect, for instance. They have very nice scans of their OJ's on ebay right now, and you can tell that the hue is not adjusted, because if you look at the sgc flips, they show as a rich, dark green that they are in real life. That's one barometer for telling that the scanner settings have not been adjusted to enhance the image of the card. In some other auction houses, those very same flips would show up a light, bright green.

So it doesn't really have to do with any attempt realism - it has to do with enhancing an image to make a bidder believe that the card is brighter, cleaner, and more attractive than it is in real life in order to proffer a better price on the card.
Reply With Quote
  #143  
Old 10-21-2013, 03:18 PM
jhs5120's Avatar
jhs5120 jhs5120 is offline
Jason S!m@nds
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 867
Default

Can someone please post a misrepresented scan from their most recent auction? I have been under the impression the problem was fixed.
Reply With Quote
  #144  
Old 10-21-2013, 03:39 PM
D. Bergin's Avatar
D. Bergin D. Bergin is online now
Dave
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: CT
Posts: 6,050
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyseymour View Post
Personally, I really don't like the idea of changing the scanner settings. A photograph is a work of art - the photographer is the artist and entitled to fix it however they wish. But a scan is really something that is a matter of record in the sense that it is representing something else, which itself is a work of art (or memorabilia). It's a subtle difference, but it's a major difference. Auctioneers aren't artists whom ought to be figuring their own interpretation of a card.

Sometimes cards do look better in real life than in a scan, but if an auction house is having that issue, they really ought to replace their scanner. Scanners these days do extraordinary work at capturing an image, especially with the new technology available. Anyone with a strong knowledge of technology will realize that there is no need to adjust the scanner settings at all.

Look at Just Collect, for instance. They have very nice scans of their OJ's on ebay right now, and you can tell that the hue is not adjusted, because if you look at the sgc flips, they show as a rich, dark green that they are in real life. That's one barometer for telling that the scanner settings have not been adjusted to enhance the image of the card. In some other auction houses, those very same flips would show up a light, bright green.

So it doesn't really have to do with any attempt realism - it has to do with enhancing an image to make a bidder believe that the card is brighter, cleaner, and more attractive than it is in real life in order to proffer a better price on the card.

Are you saying it's best to just use the standard factory setting on every scan you make?

If so, I disagree pretty strongly.

Maybe you have some super-intuitive scanner in your possession but most don't. Most scanners I have ever owned, and I have owned many, need to be tweaked in the professional setting in order to reflect what type of item you are scanning whether it be a real photo, lithograph, printed photo, old paper stock, new paper stock. They are all scanned somewhat differently in order to look as close to the approximation they look in real life.

A scanner will play all kinds of havoc with off white's, just depending on where you crop it sometimes, and you have to adjust to either remove or keep the brightness factor the automatic settings apply.
Reply With Quote
  #145  
Old 10-21-2013, 03:40 PM
calvindog's Avatar
calvindog calvindog is offline
Jeffrey Lichtman
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,488
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhs5120 View Post
Can someone please post a misrepresented scan from their most recent auction? I have been under the impression the problem was fixed.
How can the problem be fixed? He just found out about the problem AFTER the auction, remember?
Reply With Quote
  #146  
Old 10-21-2013, 03:54 PM
vintagetoppsguy vintagetoppsguy is offline
D@v!d J@m3s
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 5,981
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by D. Bergin View Post
Are you saying it's best to just use the standard factory setting on every scan you make?

If so, I disagree pretty strongly.

Maybe you have some super-intuitive scanner in your possession but most don't. Most scanners I have ever owned, and I have owned many, need to be tweaked in the professional setting in order to reflect what type of item you are scanning whether it be a real photo, lithograph, printed photo, old paper stock, new paper stock. They are all scanned somewhat differently in order to look as close to the approximation they look in real life.

A scanner will play all kinds of havoc with off white's, just depending on where you crop it sometimes, and you have to adjust to either remove or keep the brightness factor the automatic settings apply.
I disagree pretty strongly as well. I haven't read this entire thread, but I can say sometimes you have to tweak the scanner settings. I know when I scan a card at home, it looks much different than when I scan it at work (each before any adjustment). I'll post images tonight to show this w/o any adjustments on either scan. Even cameras have different settings based on the background and conditions of the object being photographed. Scanners are the same way based on what you are scanning.

All that said, I don't know much about PWCC (I choose to overlook his auctions as the prices are too high for me), but if he is tweaking scans to hide a card's flaws, then that's another story and I'm certainly not defending that.

Last edited by vintagetoppsguy; 10-21-2013 at 03:55 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #147  
Old 10-21-2013, 04:51 PM
cyseymour's Avatar
cyseymour cyseymour is offline
Ja,mie B.
member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 662
Default

Guys, the argument can be made either way - that it is more or less realistic if the settings are adjusted. But the bottom line is that three separate entities - Legendary, Goodwin, and PWCC, have had threads created about them in which they are accused of juicing their scans, and there wasn't a whole lot of dissent about whether it was occurring in any of those threads. The proof is in the pudding - look at the cards, and you will see the difference. You can see that the scans are coming out brighter than they really are. Meanwhile, we have auction houses like B&L who don't change the settings from default on their scanner. You haven't heard a lot of complaints about B&L's scans, have you?

So the question is, how do you know when there's funny business going on, when something isn't quite right with a scan? It's because you can see it, you know that that's not what the card looks like, that that's not what the card really is. We can argue the details of scanners and settings till the end of time, but when a scan is being juiced, you just know, because you know it when you see it.
Reply With Quote
  #148  
Old 10-21-2013, 04:58 PM
ullmandds's Avatar
ullmandds ullmandds is offline
pete ullman
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: saint paul, mn
Posts: 11,230
Default

jamie...you mean when a scan is juiced...you'll know it after you've received the item...right?
Reply With Quote
  #149  
Old 10-21-2013, 05:17 PM
vintagetoppsguy vintagetoppsguy is offline
D@v!d J@m3s
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 5,981
Default

Attachment 118855
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyseymour View Post
The proof is in the pudding - look at the cards, and you will see the difference. You can see that the scans are coming out brighter than they really are.
You're assuming that just because the scans are brighter, he's adjusting the settings. This may not be so. I work for an engineering company and I use a lot of different reproduction equipment. One scanner I use very often is designed to enhance colors (mostly reds and blues) and minimize black (factory settings). We mark-up vendor drawings with red and blue pencils and this scanner enhances our marks and comments so when we send them back to the vendor, our marks really stand out for easy identification.

My point is that you have no idea what kind of scanner he is using and are only assuming that he is adjusting the colors because of the brightness of the scans. If you like, I can scan a card with my scanner at work and then scan the same card with my scanner at home and you will see a noticeable difference in the brightness of the two cards (using only factory settings on each).

Last edited by vintagetoppsguy; 10-21-2013 at 05:18 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #150  
Old 10-21-2013, 05:19 PM
cyseymour's Avatar
cyseymour cyseymour is offline
Ja,mie B.
member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 662
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ullmandds View Post
jamie...you mean when a scan is juiced...you'll know it after you've received the item...right?
I think you can tell even before that... you can look at the flip... is it the proper color. Is the SGC label light or dark green? Or just look at the card itself - I know what an OJ looks like, I've seen plenty of them, and I know that they don't glow orange or shine in bright ways. So if they are doing that on the scan, it's pretty obvious that something funny is going on there, right?

Have I bought cards, just in the last couple of months, from scans which I knew were juiced, and gotten the card home to see that it was indeed true that the scan was juiced? Yeah, I have, because I wanted those particular cards. But I may have paid more for them than I otherwise would have because other bidders might not realize it was juiced. This is one of those things that inflates prices, just like shill bidding. It is another artificial inflation of prices. Some call it fraud.
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Increcible prices for PWCC auctions Peter_Spaeth Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 103 09-22-2016 07:46 AM
Did anyone get the T206 SGC 86 O'hara on PWCC? CMIZ5290 Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 7 09-30-2013 07:36 AM
Anyone win any of the STAMPED E90-1 cards from PWCC? CaramelMan Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 17 08-08-2013 03:51 AM
Latest PWCC drmondobueno Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 16 02-14-2013 02:15 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:00 PM.


ebay GSB