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#51
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#52
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Goodell has had his rulings overturned regarding Rice, Peterson and now Brady. I agree with the "overreach" in the first two rulings, but I think it's perfectly within the NFL's rights to make decisions like the one regarding Brady. They might have screwed it up, but I think if you are going to let the courts pop in to overrule things that are related ONLY to the sport that the commissioner is responsible for (which the Rice and Peterson things were not), then you've opened the doors for all sorts of things;i.e-any time ANY fine or punishment is imposed in ANY sport, we're off to court. If a commissioner can't do his job, just get rid of him.
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$co++ Forre$+ |
#53
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That is your OPINION, not fact. HUGE difference.
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#54
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Under the Federal Arbitration Act ("FAA''), "the validity of an award is subject to attack only on those grounds listed in [9 U.S.C.] § 10, and the policy of the FAA requires that an award be enforced unless one of those grounds is affirmatively shown to exist." Wall Street Assocs. L.P. v. Becker Pari bas Inc., 27 F .3d 845, 849 (2d Cir. 1994). For example, FAA § I 0 provides that the Court may vacate an arbitral award "where the arbitrators were guilty of ... refusing to hear evidence pertinent and material to the controversy." 9 U.S.C. § I O(a)(3). The Court may also vacate an arbitral award "where there was evident partiality ... " 9 U.S.C. § I O(a)(2). A "principal question for the reviewing court is whether the arbitrator's award draws its essence from the collective bargaining agreement, since the arbitrator is not free to merely dispense his own brand of industrial justice." 187 Concourse Assocs. v. Fishman, 399 F.3d 524, 527 (2d Cir. 2005) (quoting Saint Marv Home, Inc. v. Serv. Emps. Int'l Union, Dist. 1199, 116 F.3d 41,44 (2d Cir. 1997)). "[A]s the proctor of the bar gain, the arbitrator's task is to effectuate the intent of the parties. His source of authority is the collective-bargaining agreement, and he must interpret and apply that agreement in accordance with the 'industrial common law of the shop' and the various needs and desires of the parties." United States v. Int'l Bhd. of Teamsters, 954 F.2d 801, 809 (2d Cir. 1992) (quoting Alexander v. Gardner-Denver Co., 94 S. Ct. 1011, 1022 (1974)) (emphasis omitted). It is the "law of the shop" to provide professional football players with advance notice of prohibited conduct and potential discipline.
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My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 09-04-2015 at 10:54 AM. |
#55
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The essence of the opinion:
The Court is fully aware of the deference afforded to arbitral decisions, but, nevertheless, concludes that the Award should be vacated. The Award is premised upon several significant legal deficiencies, including (A) inadequate notice to Brady of both his potential discipline (fourgame suspension) and his alleged misconduct; (B) denial of the opportunity for Brady to examine one of two lead investigators, namely NFL Executive Vice President and General Counsel JeffPash; and (C) denial of equal access to investigative files, including witness interview notes.
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My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#56
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How do you explain the text messages between equipment manages directly referencing Tom's preference for under inflation? Doesn't that show that he directed the equipment managers to inflate balls to his liking, an inflation that is in violation of league rules?
I feel like we're arguing over whether or not OJ was guilty. It's so obvious what happened. The legal opinion is not as relevant as your eyes and ears. Last edited by packs; 09-04-2015 at 10:47 AM. |
#57
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What? $#@!#%$^#$!????
Packs,
I suggest you read legal briefs of Marbury vs Madison, the people vs Larry Flint, and the people vs life savers.... Then you might be more qualified to rule on this than Judge Berman / the other 3 lawyers that have weighed in. Are you a Jets or Giants fan? All in good fun...it might be time for you to fold. cheers, Patriots season ticket holder |
#58
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The issue for the court was not whether Brady was guilty or not. It was that the suspension, and the process followed by Goodell, were not consistent with the collective bargaining agreement.
But inevitably, a technical decision like this is going to be completely mischaracterized.
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My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 09-04-2015 at 11:03 AM. |
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Successful transactions with peter spaeth, don's cards, vwtdi, wolf441, 111gecko, Clydewally, Jim, SPMIDD, MattyC, jmb, botn, E107collector, begsu1013, and a few others. |
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My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 09-04-2015 at 11:18 AM. |
#61
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I also believe the lack of credible evidence and the fact that similar violations in other cases resulted in little or no punishment for the players involved factored in.
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Successful transactions with peter spaeth, don's cards, vwtdi, wolf441, 111gecko, Clydewally, Jim, SPMIDD, MattyC, jmb, botn, E107collector, begsu1013, and a few others. |
#62
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My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#63
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..
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#64
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Thanks Peter for making the legal end of things as clear as possible for those of us who aren't lawyers. We may not like what we hear, but at least there's that bit of translation to something we can understand.
Steve B |
#65
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Three things:
1. Brady obviously knew the balls were deflated, most reasonable people agree. 2. The ingenuity of purposely deflating the football to gain a competitive advantage should be celebrated, not punished. 3. Every team cheats, most more than the Patriots. www.yourteamcheats.com Last edited by jhs5120; 09-04-2015 at 11:54 AM. |
#66
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The questions the judge asked of the NFL during the hearings lead me to believe that he felt they were important issues and factored into his decision. I don't have any direct quotes, but it seemed to me he disagreed with their reasoning as well as having a problem with the procedural issues.
__________________
Successful transactions with peter spaeth, don's cards, vwtdi, wolf441, 111gecko, Clydewally, Jim, SPMIDD, MattyC, jmb, botn, E107collector, begsu1013, and a few others. |
#67
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Most people, in the media and otherwise, understandably are focused on the outcome of a legal case, not the reasoning which sometimes is very narrow and/or technical.
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My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#68
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My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#69
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I will yield to your legal expertise on this one.
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Successful transactions with peter spaeth, don's cards, vwtdi, wolf441, 111gecko, Clydewally, Jim, SPMIDD, MattyC, jmb, botn, E107collector, begsu1013, and a few others. |
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Last edited by kcohen; 09-04-2015 at 01:47 PM. |
#71
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In the end the Patriots still cheated. If they didn't, Robert Kraft would have fought the penalty and fine alittle hard and not fired the two employees(can't wait till one of them writes a book).
Tom Brady might have been given a pass in the courts because the NFL can run a investigation correctly. But people with a reasonable mind, know he knows he knew about what the ball boys were doing to the balls. They wouldn't mess with the ball without him knowing. Also the way its reading lately, Tom and the talking horse(tosh.O joke) might not be married much longer.
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http://www.wix.com/boblee89/brocks-collection |
#72
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delete
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http://www.wix.com/boblee89/brocks-collection Last edited by yanks12025; 09-04-2015 at 01:49 PM. |
#73
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#74
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My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#75
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Let's face it, every team is cheating, some more than others. Cheating has probably been happening since the beginning of each sport. We accept it when our team wins and are critical of it when our team loses, especially to a team we hate (i.e. Patriots).
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Dan |
#76
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Signed 1953 Topps set: 264/274 (96.35 %) |
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H Murphy Collection https://www.flickr.com/photos/154296763@N05/ |
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Brady got the bomb dropped on him by the commissioner before court, then had the commissioner overruled when it went to court. Thanks, Peter, for sharing the details as to why this happened. Since Goodell was wrist-slapped by the courts for technical failings in his process, it seems like the next step is for Goodell (or any other commissioner) to simply go to court any time someone steps out of line...since Goodell isn't a court and can't be expected to follow exactly the same procedures when trying to administer disciplinary actions.
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$co++ Forre$+ |
#79
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$co++ Forre$+ |
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If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon's but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side, and superstition, ambition and ignorance on the other. - Ulysses S. Grant, military commander, 18th US President. |
#81
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__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#82
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#83
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__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 09-04-2015 at 04:02 PM. |
#84
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If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon's but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side, and superstition, ambition and ignorance on the other. - Ulysses S. Grant, military commander, 18th US President. |
#85
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And you keep drinking that chicken soup.
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#86
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Peter - it's obvious, and I'm not being sarcastic, that you understand the legal implications of all of this better than the rest of us, who represent the average joe who is watching from the sidelines. So no need to patronize me - I appreciate your expertise.
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$co++ Forre$+ |
#87
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Who was patronizing? I was simply explaining that your analogy didn't hold under the circumstances.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#88
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Also, while I agree there should be adequate notice of the potential penalty such that 4 games under these circumstances was excessive and violative of the CBA, it strains credulity to make the argument that gee I thought such infraction would only carry a $25K fine. You don't go to such lengths just to avoid such a minimal penalty. Brady and the Patriots, maybe others as well, would gladly and openly pay $25K for the opportunity to fine-tune the pressure on their footballs. Hell, do it on the sidelines and hand the check to the NFL on the spot--it's worth it. IMO they knew damn well that what they were doing was more than a token equipment violation. This case did/does have integrity of the game implications-do you really think that Goodell thought it a good idea to slap one of the league's more popular franchises and an even more popular player just for giggles, knowing that this crap storm would likely follow where even if he wins he's skewered? This is why I cannot agree that it is really much ado but nothing. Goodell handled it poorly--quelle surpris--but that doesn't mean there was nothing there or it wasn't worth protecting. There are no winners here.
__________________
If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon's but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side, and superstition, ambition and ignorance on the other. - Ulysses S. Grant, military commander, 18th US President. |
#89
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I don't think Goodell necessarily thought the integrity of the game was on the line. I think he was worried that if he let it go, or imposed a token fine, he would be skewered for favoritism because the Patriots and their poster boy were involved. I think it was, in short, politics, not genuine concern. Or could be explained that way anyhow, as we can't know his subjective motivations.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 09-04-2015 at 05:18 PM. |
#90
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I'm aware of the collective bargaining agreement (plus, you already mentioned it in your previous response to me) - to the average guy watching football (as I already mentioned), I think my analogy holds up perfectly. I'm not a lawyer, and most people aren't - that fact gets lost on this forum because the lawyers are the ones who talk the 'loudest' and who absolutely never back down.
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$co++ Forre$+ |
#91
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If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon's but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side, and superstition, ambition and ignorance on the other. - Ulysses S. Grant, military commander, 18th US President. |
#92
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__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#93
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__________________
If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon's but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side, and superstition, ambition and ignorance on the other. - Ulysses S. Grant, military commander, 18th US President. |
#94
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Todd, turn on the TV next week and root for Pittsburgh. Oh wait, their quarterback had some issues too, maybe even a little more troubling. Damn. 6 game suspension, wasn't it?
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 09-04-2015 at 08:13 PM. |
#95
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Ah yes, played like a cornerback--deflection
__________________
If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon's but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side, and superstition, ambition and ignorance on the other. - Ulysses S. Grant, military commander, 18th US President. |
#96
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Defense lawyer. Go figure.
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#97
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Perspective, son, perspective. One frickin PSI of air let out of a ball. That no official noticed. That meant nothing -- see second half. This is chickenfeed. Integrity of the game, yeah yeah yeah.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 09-04-2015 at 08:35 PM. |
#98
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Redirecting attention to what matters.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#99
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I certainly agree with the redirecting part. Its the rest of the statement I'm somewhat dubious about.
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#100
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Bingo. Now followed by trivializing-- it was a only a little bitty boo boo, but by the way we won't even admit to it anyway, and we knew it really didn't matter when we tried our best to keep it under wraps.
Coming soon to a thread near you--rationalization. Everybody cheats, there are worse sinners out there, etc (but by the way we still won't even admit to it anyway, and we knew it really didn't matter when we tried our best to keep it under wraps).
__________________
If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon's but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side, and superstition, ambition and ignorance on the other. - Ulysses S. Grant, military commander, 18th US President. Last edited by nolemmings; 09-04-2015 at 08:46 PM. |
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