Ohtani ROY, really?????

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by rats60

There is no bias other than that of Yankee fans who think that Sanchez and Andujar deserved ROY. Ohtani isn't remotely comparable to Sanchez. Ohtani played a full season, just neither as a full time pitcher or full time hitter, but as a combination of both and led AL rookies in WAR. Sanchez was a distant 2nd to Michael Fulmer in WAR. In both cases the player who had the higher WAR won ROY as they deserved. Claiming inferior players should have won just shows bias.

We can debate, compare apples to oranges and disagree all day....nothing is going to change the fact that Andujar had a strong season but did not win this award (which no one will remember in a week anyway) due to the hype surrounding another player who had almost as good of a season.

In addition, is Ohtani a real rookie anyway? FIVE years in the NPB?

He maybe a MLB rookie by qualifications, but clearly no rookie at the top level.

With five years already under his belt, Ohtani should have had a much better season than Andujar did with no top level experience.


As far as comparing Sanchez and Ohtani and their partial seasons, they are quite similar, especially percentage wise. You can see how they compared to your previous example of McCovey winning in his shortened season.

..............g...ab...r..h..2b.HR.RBI.BA..OBP..SL G...OPS
Sanchez 53 229 34 60 12 20 42 .299 .376 .657 1.032
Ohtani. 104 326 59 93 21 22 61 .285 .361 .564 .925

McCovey 52 192 32 68 9 13 38 .354 .429 .656 1.085


If you feel Andujar and Sanchez's rookie performances are inferior when compared to Ohtani and Fulmer's MLB "rookie" results respectively , you must be........

[rats60]

Originally Posted by savedfrommyspokes

We can debate, compare apples to oranges and disagree all day....nothing is going to change the fact that Andujar had a strong season but did not win this award (which no one will remember in a week anyway) due to the hype surrounding another player who had almost as good of a season.

In addition, is Ohtani a real rookie anyway? FIVE years in the NPB?

He maybe a MLB rookie by qualifications, but clearly no rookie at the top level.

With five years already under his belt, Ohtani should have had a much better season than Andujar did with no top level experience.


As far as comparing Sanchez and Ohtani and their partial seasons, they are quite similar, especially percentage wise. You can see how they compared to your previous example of McCovey winning in his shortened season.

..............g...ab...r..h..2b.HR.RBI.BA..OBP..SL G...OPS
Sanchez 53 229 34 60 12 20 42 .299 .376 .657 1.032
Ohtani. 104 326 59 93 21 22 61 .285 .361 .564 .925

McCovey 52 192 32 68 9 13 38 .354 .429 .656 1.085


If you feel Andujar and Sanchez's rookie performances are inferior when compared to Ohtani and Fulmer's MLB "rookie" results respectively , you must be........

Andujar had a strong season, but Ohtani had a historic one. He was a far better hitter with OPS+ 152 to 126 for Andujar as well as producing at a high level on the mound. There is no hype involved.

Ohtani played 5 years of minor league ball, playing 403 games with 1170 PA. Andujar played 596 minor league games with 2474 PA. Andujar has more professional experience, but they both absolutely are rookies.

If Ohtani was a rookie in 2016, he wouldn't have won the award like Sanchez didn't. ROY is a yearly award. Ohtani had weaker competition than Sanchez had, thus he is the 2018 AL ROY.

Here is a nice article from an actual voter. He lays out his reasoning and none of it involves "hype," but many of the stats that I laid out including a OPS+ 26 points higher, a OBP 33 points higher and a SLG 37 points higher. That is on top of his pitching. He also points out Andujar's historically bad fielding.

https://sports.yahoo.com/yankees-fan...065239328.html

I consult with executives, scouts, field staff, players – you know, people actually involved in the game – before I vote on these awards. Their vote was split. Slightly more favored Ohtani.

So, it seems that not only 25 of 30 writers favor Ohtani, but also those who are part of the game. The only group that favors Andujar are Yankee fans.

[packs]

Originally Posted by rats60

Andujar had a strong season, but Ohtani had a historic one. He was a far better hitter with OPS+ 152 to 126 for Andujar as well as producing at a high level on the mound. There is no hype involved.

Ohtani played 5 years of minor league ball, playing 403 games with 1170 PA. Andujar played 596 minor league games with 2474 PA. Andujar has more professional experience, but they both absolutely are rookies.

If Ohtani was a rookie in 2016, he wouldn't have won the award like Sanchez didn't. ROY is a yearly award. Ohtani had weaker competition than Sanchez had, thus he is the 2018 AL ROY.

Here is a nice article from an actual voter. He lays out his reasoning and none of it involves "hype," but many of the stats that I laid out including a OPS+ 26 points higher, a OBP 33 points higher and a SLG 37 points higher. That is on top of his pitching. He also points out Andujar's historically bad fielding.

https://sports.yahoo.com/yankees-fan...065239328.html

I consult with executives, scouts, field staff, players – you know, people actually involved in the game – before I vote on these awards. Their vote was split. Slightly more favored Ohtani.

So, it seems that not only 25 of 30 writers favor Ohtani, but also those who are part of the game. The only group that favors Andujar are Yankee fans.

Please explain your reasoning for Ohtani having a better season at the plate. He had 250 less at bats than Andujar. Quoting OPS+, on base, or slugging seems crazy when there is that much of a disparity between at bats.

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by rats60

Andujar had a strong season, but Ohtani had a historic one. He was a far better hitter with OPS+ 152 to 126 for Andujar as well as producing at a high level on the mound. There is no hype involved.

Ohtani played 5 years of minor league ball, playing 403 games with 1170 PA. Andujar played 596 minor league games with 2474 PA. Andujar has more professional experience, but they both absolutely are rookies.

If Ohtani was a rookie in 2016, he wouldn't have won the award like Sanchez didn't. ROY is a yearly award. Ohtani had weaker competition than Sanchez had, thus he is the 2018 AL ROY.

Here is a nice article from an actual voter. He lays out his reasoning and none of it involves "hype," but many of the stats that I laid out including a OPS+ 26 points higher, a OBP 33 points higher and a SLG 37 points higher. That is on top of his pitching. He also points out Andujar's historically bad fielding.

https://sports.yahoo.com/yankees-fan...065239328.html

I consult with executives, scouts, field staff, players – you know, people actually involved in the game – before I vote on these awards. Their vote was split. Slightly more favored Ohtani.

So, it seems that not only 25 of 30 writers favor Ohtani, but also those who are part of the game. The only group that favors Andujar are Yankee fans.

You may want to actually read the article you linked, as it is contradicting to your position.

First, there is absolutely no mention of WAR being the reason for this voter voting the way he did. Second, the article flat out says that Ohtani did not lead in any (non-pct) offensive categories (as Andujar did), as (agreeably) leading in statistical categories is not a requirement to win the ROY. In so many words, the article does not deny Andujar had a better season offensively. So, read back between the lines and outside of Ohtani leading slightly in a few pct based offensive categories, he received this vote because "what he did was historic".... this is statement absolutely confirms Ohtani received this vote because of the HYPE surrounding him. In addition, Ohtani's performance is not really very historic when just two years ago the runnerup for ROY, in a less crowed field, was better percentage wise in all PCT base categories than Ohtani.

Straight from a voters mouth, Ohtani won this vote not on the merits of having the best season (he had a strong season for sure), but on the fact that what he did was "historic"...

Since this voter based his vote on Ohtani's percentages being stronger(and of course his "historic" performance), instead of using WAR or other traditional stats (HR, RBI 2bs, avg), I wonder who he voted for in 2016. The guy who had the best percentages OR another player? If he voted for anyone other than Sanchez, there is clear bias.


Oh, where exactly did Ohtani play his 5 years of "minor league ball"?

[frankbmd]

I’ve read this thread and have concluded the following.

There clearly should be an award for the Yankee ROY and a secondary ROY award for everyone else.

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

I’ve read this thread and have concluded the following.

There clearly should be an award for the Yankee ROY and a secondary ROY award for everyone else.

I was actually fine with Sanchez not winning the ROY in 2016 based on the premise that he played an abbreviated season, even though there was a long ago precedent set with McCovey winning and playing even less.

With the 2016 precedent of passing on a player who played much less than a full season for this award but put forth strong results, it seems ironic that just two years later another player who played a partial season would win the award based on only minimally greater percentages than a player whose tangible results were greater because of playing a more complete season. This irony is my reason for this thread.

[vintagewhitesox]

I think we can all agree on one thing.
Daniel Palka is the true Rookie of the Year.