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  #1  
Old 12-21-2014, 06:50 PM
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Default 1921 W575 Henry A Johnson back?

Forgetting about the asking price for a moment, has anyone seen this kind of printing on the Henry Johnson backs before? thanks

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Dick...item2edb3ff14e

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  #2  
Old 12-21-2014, 07:05 PM
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Yes - and mine was deemed to be a fake. I had a frank baker like it (slanted printing) listed in the second to last Goodwin auction. It was pulled due to being counterfeit and noticed/outted by Al Cr. of LOTG auctions. He would be the expert on this set, in my opinion.

Obviously, I didn't know (and nor did PSA). But Goodwin and PSA made me right and PSA has now kept my counterfeit example for graders to recognize fake examples.

But I'll defer to the experts on this one. I just know mine was similar and not legit.
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  #3  
Old 12-21-2014, 07:51 PM
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The font on the front doesn't look right, either.
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  #4  
Old 12-21-2014, 11:01 PM
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Hi there all:

This is really interesting for a geek like me, actually.

All the Henry Johnson Confectioners cards I've ever encountered (I've been working on the set for years) have mirrored the E121-80 set in design, with blank backs. None of the cards are hand cut, as is the case with the W575-1 cards they're purported to be.

I've been told by a number of reliable sources over my years of collecting this set that the purple stamped cards all use the same stamp (as Leon suggests in his post). The story that's been told to me by these sources is that somehow, some fakes flooded the hobby in the 70s or 80s. That always seemed strange to me, since the cards couldn't have had much value, but the sources who provided me this information are about as impeccable as they get in this hobby.

The "authentic" purple Henry Johnson stamp is on top of the "fake" one in the image below:



You can see they're quite distinctly different.

What throws me a bit is this: If you look closely at the Hoblitzell, the design is actually not the design of the E121s. It's the design of the D350-2 Standard Biscuit cards, only without the card number underneath the position and team name. The two issues (E121 and D350-2) are very similar, but the typefaces are actually very different. Rhett can probably speak to this far more eloquently than I; he's the true expert on these.

What you may notice, though, is this: Dick Hoblitzell is not in the E121 or W575-1 checklist. He IS in the D350-2 checklist.

I just dug through my H-Js because I picked up a fake once, just for threads like this. The card is of George Cutshaw. He's ALSO in the D350-2 checklist but not in the E121. The card is printed on super flimsy paper, and does appear to be hand-cut.

Does this mean it's possible that there was ANOTHER Henry-Johnson set issued in 1917, consistent with the D350-2 set? I guess so, theoretically, but until I'm presented with information from a source more reliable than the ones that have told me these cards are fakes, I'll go with my current line of thinking.

How's that for wishy-washy?

-Al

Last edited by Al C.risafulli; 12-21-2014 at 11:05 PM.
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  #5  
Old 12-21-2014, 11:32 PM
Brian Van Horn Brian Van Horn is offline
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This card was discussed on the board years ago.
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  #6  
Old 12-22-2014, 12:12 AM
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I saw several of these back in 2001, and had one in hand from an ebay seller in Florida who let me examine it for free. It was Frank Gilhooley and it had that same Henry Johnson printing as the card Leon linked. I ended up passing on it/them because I was too new to those related sets at the time and had no comfort level--this was back before we could upload scans and get much board input. However, I thought some of you might get a kick if I posted the trip down memory lane I enjoyed when I saw this thread and used the wayback machine, which miraculously still has my posts from the old Full Count board nearly 14 years ago:

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Old 12-22-2014, 07:23 AM
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this seller origianlly had this listed on EBAY bidding starting at $15.

I asked a question about it and he then stated he had many auction sites ask him about it and he pulled the listing.
I then told him it was fake and gave examples of real Johnson backs and he refused to listen. Now i see this...

Now here it is for a wee bit more $$.
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Old 12-22-2014, 10:54 AM
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Thanks for the responses guys, especially Al and Todd. I thought it looked kind of funky too, as when I compared it to mine, it didn't look right. I know we have spoken about them before but this was a current auction....and almost everything we talk about has been discussed before anyway. Our crap is a hundred years old!!

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Old 12-22-2014, 11:58 AM
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The fronts of these cards are as intriguing to me as the backs. They are unnumbered, but they seem to match up with the 1917 cards--E135, Boston Store, Weil and Standard Biscuit (plus blank). The card Leon linked, the Cutshaw Al mentioned and the Gilhooley I saw those many years ago are all players and poses found in the 1917 sets but missing from E121 cards four years later. But there are no unnumbered 1917 cards of this nature known.
From what I see, these are 1917 cards (or fakes/reprints), and the authenticity of the Henry Johnson back is a separate question.
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  #10  
Old 12-22-2014, 02:26 PM
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I did some investagating into Hoblitzell as well.
I dont know how companies did it back then, but the discription states it is a 1921-1922, however, Hoblitzell retired in 1918.
Not sure a card company would have made a card of a "common" that has not played for 3 years?








Quote:
Originally Posted by Al C.risafulli View Post
Hi there all:

This is really interesting for a geek like me, actually.

All the Henry Johnson Confectioners cards I've ever encountered (I've been working on the set for years) have mirrored the E121-80 set in design, with blank backs. None of the cards are hand cut, as is the case with the W575-1 cards they're purported to be.

I've been told by a number of reliable sources over my years of collecting this set that the purple stamped cards all use the same stamp (as Leon suggests in his post). The story that's been told to me by these sources is that somehow, some fakes flooded the hobby in the 70s or 80s. That always seemed strange to me, since the cards couldn't have had much value, but the sources who provided me this information are about as impeccable as they get in this hobby.

The "authentic" purple Henry Johnson stamp is on top of the "fake" one in the image below:



You can see they're quite distinctly different.

What throws me a bit is this: If you look closely at the Hoblitzell, the design is actually not the design of the E121s. It's the design of the D350-2 Standard Biscuit cards, only without the card number underneath the position and team name. The two issues (E121 and D350-2) are very similar, but the typefaces are actually very different. Rhett can probably speak to this far more eloquently than I; he's the true expert on these.

What you may notice, though, is this: Dick Hoblitzell is not in the E121 or W575-1 checklist. He IS in the D350-2 checklist.I just dug through my H-Js because I picked up a fake once, just for threads like this. The card is of George Cutshaw. He's ALSO in the D350-2 checklist but not in the E121. The card is printed on super flimsy paper, and does appear to be hand-cut.

Does this mean it's possible that there was ANOTHER Henry-Johnson set issued in 1917, consistent with the D350-2 set? I guess so, theoretically, but until I'm presented with information from a source more reliable than the ones that have told me these cards are fakes, I'll go with my current line of thinking.

How's that for wishy-washy?

-Al
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  #11  
Old 12-22-2014, 03:51 PM
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Henry Johnson 'counterfeits' trace their way back to the hobby's first scam in 1972, which included a number of West Coast issues and Old Judges. The cards originated in / near Newark Delaware, but quickly spread throughout the country. The counterfeits are now 42 + years old and many are showing signs of natural aging. Its safe to say that in more recent times many more have been counterfeited / reproduced, as have examples from hundreds of other sets.



Last edited by Leon; 12-22-2014 at 04:21 PM. Reason: add pics
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  #12  
Old 12-22-2014, 04:22 PM
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Thanks for sharing that article, Mark.
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Old 12-22-2014, 04:24 PM
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Edited now that I've seen Mark's article. Thanks.
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I know the rent is in arrears, the dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears, but it's alright
Cow is giving kerosene, kid can't read at seventeen
The words he knows are all obscene, but it's alright

Last edited by nolemmings; 12-22-2014 at 04:25 PM.
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  #14  
Old 12-22-2014, 08:59 PM
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I guess now it's okay for me to say that Mark was one of the impeccable sources that explained the details about those fake H-Js from 1972 to me.

Thanks, Mark!

-Al
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