Card doctoring video

[FrankWakefield]

When someone buys the best graded cards they can find... they need to realize that the TPGers are fallible and foolable, and that the senseless (my opinion) high value those graded cards demand creates an environment that feeds, fuels and encourages the slicing, trimming, waxing out there.

What I watched seems obviously wrong.

And when I soak an old T card I feel no remorse, a huge majority of those have been soaked before I was born.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

When someone buys the best graded cards they can find... they need to realize that the TPGers are fallible and foolable, and that the senseless (my opinion) high value those graded cards demand creates an environment that feeds, fuels and encourages the slicing, trimming, waxing out there.

What I watched seems obviously wrong.

And when I soak an old T card I feel no remorse, a huge majority of those have been soaked before I was born.

And a corollary to that, there aren't enough natural cards to fill that demand for higher and higher grades, and the only way to fill it is for the TPGs to make certain compromises and let some altered cards through.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by glynparson

All those things should also be disclosed. A car with original paint is worth more. Rolex with fully original parts worth more. New physical media in untouched unopened condition is always worth considerably more your examples all suck. I love the jack asses above arguing with Adam and Peter about the law. These two are both lawyers and know the law. Arguing with them about it is hysterical.

Sorry, but I fail to see how this could rise to a crime.

A person has a card, alters the card, and then sells the card (take grading out of it). How is this a crime? Unethical, yes, but a crime?

And please don't bring up Maestro. He was not convicted of altering a card (that is a myth).

While I hate this subject as much as other collectors, throwing around the word crime for something that it is not is frustrating.

[Peter_Spaeth]

How many times do I have to explain this going all the way back to 2019? I give up. Think whatever you want, ignorance is bliss as they say. And yes, while not the main focus of the case, if you actually read the Mastro indictment (to which he pled guilty) part of it is selling the Wagner without disclosure that it was altered. Not myth, fact.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

How many times do I have to explain this? I give up. Think whatever you want, ignorance is bliss as they say. And yes, while not the main focus of the case, if you actually read the Mastro indictment (to which he pled guilty) part of it is selling the Wagner without disclosure that it was altered. Not myth, fact.

So I am reading the indictment:

https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/ch...r-collectibles

So I am seeing that part, but what I am not seeing is him being convicted of that.

"In a plea agreement, Mastro admitted to driving up prices through shill bidding between 2002 and 2009. He and his associates would bid up auctions to drive prices higher."

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndil/pr...l-bidding-scam

Read the discussion of the Wagner.

Here, I'll make it easy for you.

The T206-series Wagner card is considered one of the world’s most expensive trading cards. Mastro admitted in the plea agreement that he cut the card’s side borders, and then concealed this information when he sold the card in 1987. Mastro again failed to disclose his alteration even after participating in subsequent auctions of the card in 1991 and 2000. The sale in 2000 produced a purchase price of more than $1 million, according to the plea agreement. Mastro also failed to disclose that he cut the Wagner card again in 1992, even though he was aware that the card had been submitted to become the first baseball card assigned a grade based on the condition of the card.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndil/pr...l-bidding-scam

Read the discussion of the Wagner.

Here, I'll make it easy for you.

The T206-series Wagner card is considered one of the world’s most expensive trading cards. Mastro admitted in the plea agreement that he cut the card’s side borders, and then concealed this information when he sold the card in 1987. Mastro again failed to disclose his alteration even after participating in subsequent auctions of the card in 1991 and 2000. The sale in 2000 produced a purchase price of more than $1 million, according to the plea agreement. Mastro also failed to disclose that he cut the Wagner card again in 1992, even though he was aware that the card had been submitted to become the first baseball card assigned a grade based on the condition of the card.

He admitted to that, no doubt. But was he charged with that as a crime? I am not seeing that. Not trying to be difficult, I don't see it.

"The former owner and CEO of a sports memorabilia auction house was sentenced Thursday to 20 months in federal prison for using phony bids to fraudulently inflate the price of his company’s listings at auction."

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

He admitted to that, no doubt. But was he charged with that as a crime? I am not seeing that. Not trying to be difficult, I don't see it.

"The former owner and CEO of a sports memorabilia auction house was sentenced Thursday to 20 months in federal prison for using phony bids to fraudulently inflate the price of his company’s listings at auction."

Are you reading some press account? The plea agreement sets forth what he was charged with and pled guilty to. It's right there. He was charged with it (see also indictment) and pled guilty to it. Do you think he admitted it just for the hell of it?

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Are you reading some press account? The plea agreement sets forth what he was charged with and pled guilty to. It's right there. He was charged with it (see also indictment) and pled guilty to it. Do you think he admitted it just for the hell of it?

It may have been part of the plea deal to admit that piece, I don't know.

The charge is mail fraud, which he plead to. I believe that ties to the shill bidding, not the card altering.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

It may have been part of the plea deal to admit that piece, I don't know.

The charge is mail fraud, which he plead to. I believe that ties to the shill bidding, not the card altering.

You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about at this point, honestly. None. You should stop. The mail fraud charges include the Wagner, I assure you. They're in the indictment and they're in the plea agreement. You might be on more solid footing arguing the earth is flat.

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by glynparson

I love the jack asses above arguing with Adam and Peter about the law. These two are both lawyers and know the law. Arguing with them about it is hysterical.

No doubt… a lawyer is infallible.

Regardless, I can be convinced that trimming is truly illegal.

Possible to point me in the direction of a trimmer be convicted specifically of card trimming?

Not looking for convoluted TPG, shilling scams.

An actual straightforward case of a guy trimmed a card, didn’t disclose, then sold it for profit….?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Funny….Smart ass responses in leu of an answer….

Nothing was stolen.

Only a guy that “may” have trimmed a card within spec of accepted size. If it’s still within the correct size what crime was committed?

Undersized and graded is another story….

And you imagine that trimmed card isn't being sent in for a grade?

That's cute.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

In the hobby I grew up in, trimming an oversized (or pressed out and therefore oversized) card down to spec was never viewed as legitimate. Either edges are factory or they aren't.

I think you've touched on why this is such a difficult and nuanced topic with your last sentence, and why many would argue that it isn't as cut and dry as some would like or believe it to be. It may be true that a card's edges are either factory cut or they aren't, but that fact isn't helpful. In the real world, this is generally both unknown and unknowable. It cannot be assumed that a card's edges are factory cut.

This also touches on why PSA does not, and surely cannot, if they wish to remain in business, honor a grade guarantee for cards that do not bare actual observable evidence of trimming regardless of whether or not someone on Blowout believes they've found before and after scans of the card in question.

In the real world, we have to deal with observable evidence and make determinations about the likelihood of a card's edges being factory cut or not. Ultimately, this is what determines a card's market value; whether or not it bares evidence of trimming, not whether or not it has in fact been trimmed. This is true in both directions. You can open a brand new pack of cards and receive one with a botched edge from factory that the TPGs will not grade because the card bares evidence of having been "trimmed" despite the fact that it came that way from the factory. It is not unfair or disingenuous to point out that all cards have been trimmed by a blade.

Unfortunately, what determines a card's actual market value is not whether or not it has a factory edge, but rather whether or not its edges appear "correct". This is why some factory cut cards get rejected and why many trimmed cards do not. A card's edge looks "trimmed" or "wrong" when it looks botched, either by an amateur trimmer or by a factory mishap. The idea that all factory edges look a particular way and that all trimmed edges look a different way is simply not true, and one that is born out of ignorance. It is also not true that factory cut cards measure 2.5" x 3.5" and that trimmed cards are by definition smaller than that. Again, ignorance and faulty assumptions beget that belief.

When one of these professional trimmers trims a card, and that card still measures within spec, the resulting card does not have a loss of value on the open market because it does not bare any actual evidence of trimming (i.e., the edges look correct), and the actualized market values are based entirely on what can be observed, not on that which is unknowable. This is also why PSA rejects grade guarantees for a lot of these cards that get called out on Blowout and sent back in for review. They simply bare no physical evidence of trimming. The edges look correct and the card measures correctly as well. Any buyer of one of these cards could crack it out and resubmit it and receive a numeric grade again from any TPG at any time. They are not actually out any money. It's difficult to make a case for fraud when the buyer's bottom line has not actually been adversely affected.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about at this point, honestly. None. You should stop. The mail fraud charges include the Wagner, I assure you. They're in the indictment and they're in the plea agreement. You might be on more solid footing arguing the earth is flat.

Wait. The earth isn’t flat?!?! My feelings are that it is flat and thus it is; there is no objective discernible reality outside of my narrative.


I understand not caring personally if a card is trimmed. I understand doing business with crooks. I understand being unable to follow what the laws are and being too stupid to recognize a claim is false. But I will never understand why some people simp so hard and so often for a company that doesn’t have them on payroll.

[Peter_Spaeth]

So Travis, if I can make a perfect duplicate of a Rolex that no expert can detect, and sell it as the real thing, and the buyer could sell it without detection for full Rolex value, no fraud?

[Snowman]

A trimmer could sell a card to someone and inform them that the card has been trimmed. The buyer could then send the card in for grading with a sticky note attached that reads, "I was told this card was trimmed when I bought it" and it wouldn't make one bit of difference. The grader is going to completely disregard the sticky note and will ultimately make their determination based on the observable evidence of the card itself.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So Travis, if I can make a perfect duplicate of a Rolex that no expert can detect, and sell it as the real thing, no fraud?

If you can make a perfect duplicate of a Rolex that even Rolex themselves cannot detect, then you sir, just made a Rolex.

But again, you're analogy is flawed. You're talking about counterfeiting an item, not restoring one. In this case, a better analogy would be if you had a Rolex with a scratched face and you buffed out the flaw and sold it without telling the buyer that you buffed out a scratch. Perhaps the buyer wouldn't be excited to learn that, but he still has a Rolex and it's still worth every penny that he paid for it. That's not fraud.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

If you can make a perfect duplicate of a Rolex that even Rolex themselves cannot detect, then you sir, just made a Rolex.

I disagree. You've made a very good fake.

[Snowman]

It looks like Evan Mathis is back for round 2. This time with a mountain of uncut sheets...

https://www.instagram.com/p/CryXzL0g1_d/?hl=en

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Snowman

It looks like Evan Mathis is back for round 2. This time with a mountain of uncut sheets...

https://www.instagram.com/p/CryXzL0g1_d/?hl=en

What do you suppose is his motivation for posting these videos?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

It looks like Evan Mathis is back for round 2. This time with a mountain of uncut sheets...

https://www.instagram.com/p/CryXzL0g1_d/?hl=en

Oh my.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

What do you suppose is his motivation for posting these videos?

Aside from getting a lot of attention and putting an aggressive twist in some knickers?

[Johnny630]

Will there be a Major Whistleblower ?

[ALBB]

I find it amusing that an interesting discussion/ difference of opinion/argument...

the further it goes..sooner or later somebody gets just a little bit insulting/ a tad nasty/ etc...

I guess its just guys being passionate about collecting/ the hobby/ whatever..

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by raulus

Aside from getting a lot of attention and putting an aggressive twist in some knickers?

Yea, but he must know it won’t be positive attention; he is basically ensuring he becomes an industry/hobby pariah (or more of one). And whose knickers are worth twisting at the expense of one’s own reputation, and why? Something bigger is going on here/there is more than meets the eye.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

If you can make a perfect duplicate of a Rolex that even Rolex themselves cannot detect, then you sir, just made a Rolex.

But again, you're analogy is flawed. You're talking about counterfeiting an item, not restoring one. In this case, a better analogy would be if you had a Rolex with a scratched face and you buffed out the flaw and sold it without telling the buyer that you buffed out a scratch. Perhaps the buyer wouldn't be excited to learn that, but he still has a Rolex and it's still worth every penny that he paid for it. That's not fraud.

You're assuming your conclusion by saying it's still worth every penny. Suppose in fact a watch with a repaired flaw isn't quite as valuable as one that is original and unflawed. What then?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Yea, but he must know it won’t be positive attention; he is basically ensuring he becomes an industry/hobby pariah (or more of one). And whose knickers are worth twisting at the expense of one’s own reputation, and why? Something bigger is going on here/there is more than meets the eye.

It may have been on Blowout not here, but people are saying PSA cut him off and maybe that's behind it?

[MikeGarcia]

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It may have been on Blowout not here, but people are saying PSA cut him off and maybe that's behind it?

Might be part of it. Like most things in life though, it's probably multifactorial. Although he did say he's been banned from PSA for a few years now, so I suspect there's been some other more recent that was the straw that broke the camel's back here.

[Peter_Spaeth]

In the context of these, it's hard to assess what he is thinking these days. Perhaps he will tell us though.

https://godseer.com/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5tEBz1LFVg&t=1844s

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

...If the card was trimmed within accepted specifications the trimmer did zip wrong. He isn’t obligated to disclose anything to anyone...

This is one of the most breathtakingly ignorant statements I've read on Net54 in the 10+ years I've been here.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So Travis, if I can make a perfect duplicate of a Rolex that no expert can detect, and sell it as the real thing, and the buyer could sell it without detection for full Rolex value, no fraud?

I had one of those Psssst guys try and sell me a "Rolex" on the streets of Amsterdam many years ago. I believe he wanted 50 Guilder at the time. It looked to be far from a perfect duplicate. Pretty sure there was fraud involved.

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by Eric72

This is one of the most breathtakingly ignorant statements I've read on Net54 in the 10+ years I've been here.

Breathtaking….:eek…..….

Show me 1 criminal case where someone has been convicted of card trimming…..

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Breathtaking….:eek…..….

Show me 1 criminal case where someone has been convicted of card trimming…..

Read this very thread re Bill Mastro.

[Rhotchkiss]

Here is a general definition of criminal fraud (each state probably has its own variation).

Altering a card is not a crime. Submitting an altered card to a TPG is not a crime. But the submission is an attempt to have the TPG (unknowingly) conceal the alteration. Then, the alterer sells the card in the TPG flip, misrepresenting (via implication or directly in the sales pitch/language) that the card is authentic/unaltered bc it sits in the flip, and they do this with the intent of making financial gain. That is fraud and fraud is a crime. Facts

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Read this very thread re Bill Mastro.

Ok…Please show me where Mr Mastro was convicted of card trimming. Was there a plea bargain? Trial? It was explicitly for trimming a card that he trimmed and sold for profit?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Ok…Please show me where Mr Mastro was convicted of card trimming. Was there a plea bargain? Trial? It was explicitly for trimming a card that he trimmed and sold for profit?

If you read the thread you would see there was a plea bargain. I'm not doing your reading for you. Pathetic. First one guy in the face of all the evidence says he still doesn't believe it, now another guy refuses to even read. This is absurd, I am not wasting any more effort here.

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Here is a general definition of criminal fraud (each state probably has its own variation).

Altering a card is not a crime. Submitting an altered card to a TPG is not a crime. But the submission is an attempt to have the TPG (unknowingly) conceal the alteration. Then, the alterer sells the card in the TPG flip, misrepresenting (via implication or directly in the sales pitch/language) that the card is authentic/unaltered bc it sits in the flip, and they do this with the intent of making financial gain. That is fraud and fraud is a crime. Facts

Not that any of us needed that….but ok…..

Let’s come at this from another angle.

Guy pulls a 52’ Mantle out of a pack in 1952…. Hates Mantle so it sits in a box until he dies in 1992. It passes to his son that loved Mantle. He sees it’s oversized and uses his own expertise gained in another field to trim it to the equivalent of a PSA 10 and it’s still slightly oversized. The son dies in 2022 and his son gets the card and sends it to PSA completely unaware of what his father did to his grandfathers Mantle. It comes back a PSA 10.

Since no one knows…. Is it still a PSA 10?

If a tree falls in the woods does it make a sound?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Here is a general definition of criminal fraud (each state probably has its own variation).

Altering a card is not a crime. Submitting an altered card to a TPG is not a crime. But the submission is an attempt to have the TPG (unknowingly) conceal the alteration. Then, the alterer sells the card in the TPG flip, misrepresenting (via implication or directly in the sales pitch/language) that the card is authentic/unaltered bc it sits in the flip, and they do this with the intent of making financial gain. That is fraud and fraud is a crime. Facts

What if the seller openly admits the graded card is altered? Would it then be a crime since it was disclosed?

I collect weird stuff and have bought and sold more than one counterfeit card in a PSA slab. When selling(one to a fellow member) I disclosed I believed the card to be counterfeit. I have also done this with a altered card in a SGC slab with a number grade. I disclosed the alteration and that sale was also to a fellow member.

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If you read the thread you would see there was a plea bargain. I'm not doing your reading for you. Pathetic. First one guy in the face of all the evidence says he still doesn't believe it, now another guy refuses to even read. This is absurd, I am not wasting any more effort here.

Link?

[Rhotchkiss]

It’s a psa 10 bc it sits in a psa 10 flip. But it’s still altered

Your fact pattern is not fraud for 3 reasons: (1) the grandson has not tried to realize financial gain (he has not tried to sell it, (2) submitting it to psa alone is not fraud, and (3) he did not know it had been altered

If the grandson new it was altered, submitted it to psa and got a numerical grade and then sold it for financial gain, knowing it was altered, and not disclosing it, then it’s fraud.

You are arguing with several people who have gone to law school and either actively practice law or have practiced law. This is like you telling a radiologist how to read an X-ray. You may not like it, you may not agree with it, but the fact pattern I have laid out meets all of the elements of fraud and fraud is a crime.

And with that, I wish you the best.

Ben, it is not fraud if the seller discloses it - there is no misrepresentation or omission/concealment (attempt to deceive).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Link?

Read THIS thread above. It's right there. Come on, you cannot be that helplesss.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

What if the seller openly admits the graded card is altered? Would it then be a crime since it was disclosed?

I collect weird stuff and have bought and sold more than one counterfeit card in a PSA slab. When selling(one to a fellow member) I disclosed I believed the card to be counterfeit. I have also done this with a altered card in a SGC slab with a number grade. I disclosed the alteration and that sale was also to a fellow member.

No crime in that case, there is no concealment. It's the concealment of a material fact (the alteration) that makes it a potential crime.

How often does that happen though LOL. Rob L occasionally would opine he thought a card had been trimmed. In one of Al C's auctions where he only found out at the last minute a card he was listing had been outed as altered, he disclosed it. Maybe there are more examples, but the overwhelming majority of the time, nobody is disclosing. Gee, I wonder why.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

It’s a psa 10 bc it sits in a psa 10 flip. But it’s still altered

Your fact pattern is not fraud for 3 reasons: (1) the grandson has not tried to realize financial gain (he has not tried to sell it, (2) submitting it to psa alone is not fraud, and (3) he did not know it had been altered

If the grandson new it was altered, submitted it to psa and got a numerical grade and then sold it for financial gain, knowing it was altered, and not disclosing it, then it’s fraud.

You are arguing with several people who have gone to law school and either actively practice law or have practiced law. This is like you telling a radiologist how to read an X-ray. You may not like it, you may not agree with it, but the fact pattern I have laid out meets all of the elements of fraud and fraud is a crime.

And with that, I wish you the best.

Ben, it is not fraud if the seller discloses it - there is no misrepresentation or omission (attempt to deceive).

1 and 2 are to me the same point, but I agree with your analysis. No sale and no intent, accepting the hypothetical at face value.

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Read THIS thread above. It's right there. Come on, you cannot be that helplesss.

Yes I am. Mr Mastro was convicted, best I can tell, of shilling….but you already know that.

….since everyone seems to be butthurt I’ll just move along…..

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If you read the thread you would see there was a plea bargain. I'm not doing your reading for you. Pathetic. First one guy in the face of all the evidence says he still doesn't believe it, now another guy refuses to even read. This is absurd, I am not wasting any more effort here.

Peter, you may find this hard to believe, but there are actually people in this world that disagree with your opinion.

The headline of the case was the admission of trimming but the mail fraud is entirely tied to the shill bidding. And for those that disagree, fine. But my question for you is this… if there was no shill bidding and just the trimming, does this case result in a plea deal?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

Peter, you may find this hard to believe, but there are actually people in this world that disagree with your opinion.

The headline of the case was the admission of trimming but the mail fraud is entirely tied to the shill bidding. And for those that disagree, fine. But my question for you is this… if there was no shill bidding and just the trimming, does this case result in a plea deal?

It's not an opinion, it's right there in the documents.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Yes I am. Mr Mastro was convicted, best I can tell, of shilling….but you already know that.

….since everyone seems to be butthurt I’ll just move along…..

Read the indictment and the plea bargain. It's not an either or.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's not my opinion, it's right there in the documents. It's in the charges against him and in his plea agreement. He was charged with it (among other things) and he pleaded to it (among other things). And the earth is flat, because that's what I believe, notwithstanding the evidence.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

Peter, you may find this hard to believe, but there are actually people in this world that disagree with your opinion

With respect to all parties, this is a classic!

Admittedly, I too think (know) I am right most (all) of the time.