|
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
|
#1
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
"EDIT: To add further to my thoughts above. Being as thousands and thousands of players have played, say, in just over the last century in all kinds of sports such as baseball, hockey, football and basketball, to name just 4, and you're out at a flea market, for example, and you come across a common, unheard of, forgotten about player's signed card. You purchase said signed card and you send it in to be authenticated. Please tell me what TPAs would use to authenticate the sig is 100% legit? Thinking further, even if we had carbon dating and it was proved the ink was of at least as old as the card, who's to say the sig wasn't signed back then by some kid or adult that was just goofing around playing with their card?" I understand what you are saying but I honestly didn't realize there was so much blind faith/hope in the hobby, especially when large amounts of money are being laid down for said cards. But like me and my sole purchase of a signed 52 Topps card, seeing it in a certified slab was enough for me. This whole thread/situation has definitely been an eye opener for me even though I don't collect signed cards. Like I have said numerous times since I joined this site back in 2016, I had no idea, gave it no thought whatsoever, that fraud would be so prevalent in this hobby or that it even existed. Oh, how I have quickly learned!
__________________
52 Topps cards. https://www.flickr.com/photos/144160280@N05/ http://www.net54baseball.com/album.php?albumid=922 |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Oh the irony of this SGC article.
__________________
http://www.collectorfocus.com/collection/schneids |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
TPA opinions
When I used to set up at shows with (my friend) Kevin Keating, the well-known TPAs would frequently bring items over to solicit his opinion of them, and conversely on occasion he would want to know what they thought about pieces. If memory serves correctly, when the autograph side of PSA was first organized 20 years ago, it was a team effort whereby a number of their authenticators would "vote" on submissions to determine whether they got a pass or not. The fact that different authenticators might have different opinions about some autographs shouldn't be surprising to anyone. And it seems to me the fact that the current team at PSA would have the honesty and institutional freedom to reverse a prior authentication of their company should be applauded. What more could you ask of them? As for such divergent opnions on resubmitted items calling into question all opinions rendered by the prior authenticators, anyone is free to resubmit items they think might get a different opinion today.
|
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
|
#5
|
|||
|
|||
No, I don't think there will be a lot of that!
Last edited by Hankphenom; 12-07-2018 at 03:42 PM. |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
A TPG renders an opinion. I don't think you can fault someone for their opinion on a given day when they assessed the authenticity of an item. It's the hobby that tries to twist TPG opinions into fact. I don't think the companies owe anyone anything if something they authenticated is later determined to be forged. It's the seller and AH that need to make things right. The TPG didn't benefit from the sale and they gave the submitter exactly what they paid for: an opinion.
|
#7
|
||||
|
||||
+1
|
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
|
#9
|
||||
|
||||
I agree. They are giving opinions and their opinions should be treated as opinions. However, there should be a level of competency and due care involved. Their feet can fairly be held to the fire by the hobby for that-- and certainly hobbyists can and should point out when their conclusions are wrong.
Last edited by drcy; 12-08-2018 at 12:32 PM. |
#10
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Why does JSA charge more for certain signatures (Ruth, Gehrig, etc) than they do others? Is it because they put more time into it? I doubt it. At what point do the AHs stop using these LOAs, CERTs, etc. as a selling point/feature? For the most part I would trust PSA, SGC and Beckett for grading cards but they should probably consider getting out of the signature "authentication" business. After this mess, I would think JSA would re-think their business plan and start grading cards because they seem to have a difficult time "authenticating" signatures. They may have a better chance of spotting a fake card. http://www.net54baseball.com/attachm...1&d=1544302248
__________________
fr3d c0wl3s - always looking for OJs and other 19th century stuff. PM or email me if you have something cool you're looking to find a new home for. |
#11
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
__________________
fr3d c0wl3s - always looking for OJs and other 19th century stuff. PM or email me if you have something cool you're looking to find a new home for. |
#12
|
|||
|
|||
Wondering if he will opine
__________________
"Trolling Ebay right now" © Always looking for signed 1952 topps as well as variations and errors |
#14
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 12-08-2018 at 01:00 PM. |
#15
|
||||
|
||||
I think it would be great to hold TPGs, AHs and others involved in this accountable, BUT...
There are approximately 10,000 members on this board, not all active. That represents a small fraction of the collecting population in this country (not to mention the world). And while I've read about specific instances within this forgery scam when an AH or someone would make a customer whole after selling a forgery, what is being done in the broader hobby? I don't think I have heard of any AH or TPG addressing this in a public way, and with the authorities keeping things close to the vest (for better or for worse), how much is this scandal getting the attention of the larger collecting population? I went to a local show shortly after this whole thread got started and the news broke. And nobody I spoke with (it was just a handful of dealers) had heard yet, and none of them were members here. Granted, this is a small show in a smaller city, but that sample size might indicate that this is flying below the radar of a vast many collectors. I hope that EVERYONE in the hobby is aware of this, and thanks to everyone for spreading the word (including Rich and everyone at SCD with a couple stories on it). I think that with the knowledge and passion of the board members here (and most of you have forgotten more than what I'll ever know about collecting), we can put some pressure on TPGs, AHs, etc. But I think we'll need to keep spreading the word and getting people riled up about it beyond this corner of the collecting community. |
#16
|
|||
|
|||
fake
I have to chuckle over the statement " their not comfortable with that sig, or yes, they are comfortable with that one "
Guys spending all kinds of crazy money based of the high and mighty word of these grading company's ..and now that the heat is on...its " well, comfortable, somewhat comfortable, warm and comfortable" ... Im sure when these company's started up way back...they never used " comfortable" in their mission statement ! ... More like - Guarantee Promise, Authenticated , etc.. Im " comfortable " that Ive never collected autographed cards |
#17
|
|||
|
|||
How do you know they're not? I've never read a single LOA that mentions anything other than an opinion.
|
#18
|
||||
|
||||
If you hold yourself out as an expert, which they clearly do, you are making an implicit representation about your expertise. What good is the opinion otherwise? The evidence of all their mistakes suggests to me they are less expert than they claim.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 12-08-2018 at 02:51 PM. |
#19
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
|
#20
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
|
#21
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Imo, and although I am still learning as I go here, when I first back into the hobby and realized we now had "Authenticators" in all forms of the hobby, including signatures, I took that as a guarantee that if I submitted something that I had questions/concerns about, and, depending on what the "Expert Authenticator" deemed, I could take that to the bank that it was legit or not legit. It's the same, imo, as finding an old painting at a flea market or something similar but not knowing, once you discovered a popular artist might have painted it, whether it is authentic or not so you send it in to a well known authenticator to find out for sure. I am not an art collector so I don't know the ins and outs of those types of authenticators, but I am pretty sure, depending on who you send it to, that you can pretty much guarantee that whatever they say will likely stick and be the truth. With cards and memorabilia, despite the claims of being "Experts" "The best in the business" "World's Leading", yada, yada, yada, you are still telling me the only real thing to trust is my gut? I know now what you're saying to be true, but I guarantee, as we have seen in the past and just recently, I am not the only one who thinks this way. When you read on TPA sites that they "Authenticate" and are the "Experts" in their field, have certificates, letters of authenticity, etc, you trust those claims, (especially if you aren't an experienced, seasoned collector like me) and put all your faith in them. Sadly, as I have learned, much/all of those claims don't mean squat and aren't worth the paper they are written on. It's quite the racket these TPAs have going. Throw out some frivolous, meaningless claims and then watch the money roll in.
__________________
52 Topps cards. https://www.flickr.com/photos/144160280@N05/ http://www.net54baseball.com/album.php?albumid=922 |
#22
|
|||
|
|||
"Never get cheated."
|
#23
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
You’re being naive. There is more forgery in the art world than in almost all antiques. Multi million paintings shown to have been painted years after the artist died. Google search it if you have any questions. It’s not that I don’t feel bad for some of the guys on this board and the current t206 scandal. I do. Blindly trusting authenticators and auctioneers is dumb. As others have eluded to, specifically the Baker t206, if you can’t see there’s an issue with that than I don’t know what else to say. Many of those cards look like they were signed yesterday or in the same light flowing hand and signed with the same pen. In fact they probably were. I know it’s easy to be a Monday morning quarterback, but many of those clearly have issues. Last edited by Duluth Eskimo; 12-09-2018 at 09:37 PM. |
#24
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
If I went to my lawyer for his/her opinion, I would be making decisions based on their expertise. If I went to my accountant for his/her opinion, I would be making decisions based on their expertise. If I went to my mechanic for his/her opinion, I would be making decisions based on their expertise. If I went to my doctor for his/her opinion, I would be making decisions based on their expertise. All of these people theoretically have a skill set that exceed my own; that is why I pay for their services. When people here say you need to educate yourself... well, I don't have time to educate myself on all areas I may need help and advice on. I don't have time to do all the research and educate myself in medicine, law, accounting, or auto mechanics. Why do we give these guys a free pass for failing? Most people would not be quite so easy to forgive the so-called experts in other professions.
__________________
Successful transactions on Net54 with balltrash, greenmonster66; Peter_Spaeth; robw1959; Stetson_1883; boxcar18; Blackie |
#25
|
|||
|
|||
This is why MOST opt for a second opinion, or 2 or 3 estimates, when something doesnt smell or feel right. Kind of like the Marquard, which started the whole thread.
__________________
"Trolling Ebay right now" © Always looking for signed 1952 topps as well as variations and errors |
#26
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
How do you know their skill set isn't exactly as advertised? These cards fooled seasoned veteran collectors, some of which specialize in this exact area. People get fooled sometimes. This forger was prolific and from all outward appearances (huge sales) very good at what they did. No one questioned whether or not the autographs were right. It was only found that they couldn't be right when the original scans were dug up. If the signatures were blatantly fake, that's one thing. But as we can all see from the high dollar sales of these cards, the signatures fooled almost everyone who came in contact with them. Last edited by packs; 12-10-2018 at 07:47 AM. |
#27
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
And my guess is you do perform some homework on this stuff. If you went in to see the doctor for a cough and s/he put you on an antidepressant you wouldn't educate yourself at all? You need some new breaks and the mechanic charges you 2k you wouldn't go seek more information? If you normally get a 5k income tax return and get a new accountant and all of sudden are getting 18k in return you wouldn't follow that up? We do it all the time. In the end we are responsible for ourselves, medically, financially and everything else. It used to a right of passage in hobby, otherwise you just would get ripped off until you did. If you don't have time to research your "hobby" spending thousands of dollars then maybe you shouldn't be doing this if you place 100% with someone else's opinion. I thought the educating yourself was part of why we did this, its enjoyable, it starts friendships and is a major reason I am part of the hobby. Last edited by rainier2004; 12-10-2018 at 08:54 AM. |
#28
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
What having a TPA did was make cards and autos commodities that required no expertise to buy and sell. In the old days, G-VG-Ex-ExMt-Mt could mean widely different things to people. Having a TPA was supposed to make all cards graded a 5 be in roughly the same condition. The likelihood is that card commerce on the internet has been greatly helped by the fact that people don't feel the need to inspect cards as closely before sale when they are slabbed as X grade. We know this does not always work and that is why so many people keep repeating the saying "buy the card, not the holder." IMO, If all anyone ever looks at, is the slab or cert, it increases the likelihood they can be fooled based on that slab or cert. If you use the TPA opinion as one of MULTIPLE pieces of evidence, this would then have the possibility of increasing your safety margin. More data = opportunity to make a better decision. Now, we still might make an incorrect evaluation, but having more data points allows for higher probability of getting it right.
__________________
My signed 1934 Goudey set(in progress). https://flic.kr/s/aHsjFuyogy Other interests/sets/collectibles. https://www.flickr.com/photos/96571220@N08/albums My for sale or trade photobucket album https://flic.kr/s/aHsk7c1SRL |
#29
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
I will agree regretably that it seems like far too many collectors today do trust TPG's like PSA almost as the word of God. It's only when something really obvious like this comes out which is immediately controversial that some actually stop and think about the nature of a grade being an "opinion" and nothing beyond that. I will also agree that for me personally, reputable TPG's are useful services for buying cards online / that I cannot physically inspect in my hands as if I were in a shop or at a show first. But beyond that - say what you will about collecting a few decades back. Even as kids - we were taught how to grade, what the subtle differences in condition were - why X card was NM and Y card was only EX...etc. etc. Now who today is really more of an expert - the graders at PSA who we cannot seem to get any information on in terms of their qualifications? Or hobbyists who have collected for decades on end and in some cases have literally had their hands on hundreds of thousands of cards? I digress a bit as I don't collect autos and I'm sure there is another whole realm of TPA controversy over the evolution of the practice there...
__________________
Vintage Cubs. Postwar stars & HOF'ers. Last edited by jchcollins; 12-07-2018 at 01:59 PM. |
#30
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
TPAs are useful independent opinions (It's wrong to say they're useless), but they are only one piece in the puzzle. Sellers and collectors should be using them as second opinions, not as the only opinions. I think most people on Net54 know and do this, but clearly not everyone in and all segments of the hobby do. Last edited by drcy; 12-07-2018 at 04:15 PM. |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
T206 Fred Parent Backrun Complete With a Couple Extra's | insccollectibles | Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions | 16 | 02-21-2016 03:56 PM |
WTB Fred Parent | ins02 | T206 cards B/S/T | 5 | 10-17-2014 10:42 AM |
FS: Fred Parent T206 SGC 30 SOLD | AndyG09 | Tobacco (T) cards, except T206 B/S/T | 1 | 06-28-2011 12:12 PM |
T206 Hindu Fred Parent | usernamealreadytaken | Tobacco (T) cards, except T206 B/S/T | 0 | 06-24-2010 11:45 AM |
For Sale: Beautiful T206 Fred Parent SGC 50....SOLD.. | Archive | Tobacco (T) cards, except T206 B/S/T | 0 | 03-05-2007 04:37 AM |