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  #51  
Old 08-29-2018, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Go compare Trout rookies or anything else you want on ebay, then report back. PSA 10s sell at a substantial advantage to BGS 9.5s.

I don't pretend to know where his cards go long term but for the moment Trout is as hot as any athlete can get. One thing is for sure he has to perform for a long time to sustain these levels!

Last edited by Dpeck100; 08-29-2018 at 03:43 PM.
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  #52  
Old 08-29-2018, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Dpeck100 View Post
I don't pretend to know where his cards go long term but for the moment Trout is as hot as any athlete can get. One thing is for sure he has to perform for a long time to sustain these levels!
I agree with that irrespective of the grading company involved. But for purposes of this thread, I am confident that on the major issues a PSA 10 is going to outsell a BGS 9.5 even a quad.
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  #53  
Old 08-29-2018, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
I agree with that irrespective of the grading company involved. But for purposes of this thread, I am confident that on the major issues a PSA 10 is going to outsell a BGS 9.5 even a quad.

I am obviously a PSA supporter and I made a conscious decision early on that longer term there was no other choice.
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  #54  
Old 08-29-2018, 04:52 PM
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Just looked on PWCC's pricing website at recent 2011 Trout Update PSA 10s and BGS 9.5s. Good barometer because there are lots of both. PSA outselling BGS by 20 percent or so across the board from a quick look. Disparity probably higher on the variations.
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  #55  
Old 08-29-2018, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Just looked on PWCC's pricing website at recent 2011 Trout Update PSA 10s and BGS 9.5s. Good barometer because there are lots of both. PSA outselling BGS by 20 percent or so across the board from a quick look. Disparity probably higher on the variations.
I would compare prices on BGS 10 to PSA 10, not sure BGS 9.5 to PSA 10 is an apples to apples comparison. In your Trout comparison BGS 10 VCP avg is $1457 vs. PSA 10 $572 (almost 3x). I was referring more to the overall total numbers of modern in BGS holders and the desirability. From everything I've seen BGS holds substantial leads in both. Which probably has something to do with the long wait times for their lowest tier service.
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  #56  
Old 08-29-2018, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajjohnsonsoxfan View Post
I would compare prices on BGS 10 to PSA 10, not sure BGS 9.5 to PSA 10 is an apples to apples comparison. In your Trout comparison BGS 10 VCP avg is $1457 vs. PSA 10 $572 (almost 3x). I was referring more to the overall total numbers of modern in BGS holders and the desirability. From everything I've seen BGS holds substantial leads in both. Which probably has something to do with the long wait times for their lowest tier service.
9.5 to 10 is apples to apples. Gem Mint to Gem Mint. No question. BGS 10 is to one side a very unusual grade, kinda like having one of those HE stickers. 10 to 10 is definitely NOT apples to apples. If PSA prices are higher then by definition that means PSA is more desirable so I really don't get your point. BGS probably has graded more because earlier and for a number of years it was the biggest player in the space so got off to a substantial lead. Not any longer. Just look at PWCC which is probably the biggest seller of this stuff.

PS I have some Beckett cards so I am not biased or a PSA fanboy. I think generally they do a good job on modern, even if the subgrades can be a little arbitrary and are frequently just off on Star basketball for reasons beyond me. But the money guys chasing the big Trout variations, the Jeters, etc. etc., are buying PSA.
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  #57  
Old 08-29-2018, 05:56 PM
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2017 same search

PSA 24,240

BGS 14,909


2016 same search

PSA 15,845

BGS 12,632


2015 same search

PSA 12,567

BGS 11,500

2014 same search

PSA 14,119

BGS 12,940


I see a trend here.
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  #58  
Old 08-29-2018, 06:24 PM
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Keep in mind, PSA 10 cards encompass 3 different BGS grades by definition. In many cases, it's difficult to discern the difference between a PSA 9 and 10. Somehow BGS has banked its grading success on finding enough subtle difference in Gem Mint, Pristine, and Super Pristine to artificially create scarcity. I wonder how many PSA 10s could qualify as Pristine or Super Pristine? Again, if BGS had only a gem mint 10 grade, they would be out of business.
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  #59  
Old 08-29-2018, 07:29 PM
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What's an RCR?


If your card is graded by RCR, it's a little cheaper than full slabbing. If you get your card back at a show and immediately submit it for full grading (at the full grading price, so paying almost double...) you are nearly guaranteed to get the same grade. Once you take it away from the table, the grade is no longer guaranteed. So it's sort of useful, but not very useful.
And when you can get your cards graded by PSA in a bulk special for cheaper, it makes almost no sense.
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  #60  
Old 08-29-2018, 07:40 PM
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BGS has found their niche in PSA's world. BGS10>PSA10>BGS9.5>PSA9>BGS9>etc. With their delays ~1 year for bulk and discontinuing 10 day service, they are losing market share to PSA. People were trying to slot their cards to maximize value. As Peter said crossing BGS 9.5 to PSA 10 or BGS 9 to PSA 9 to make money or trying for BGS 10s on pristine cards. Now it isn't worth the wait unless it is an expensive card and you do the 5 day service. Now just send it to PSA and move it when the time is right. By the time it comes back from BGS, the time to sell may have past.
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  #61  
Old 08-29-2018, 07:48 PM
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If your card is graded by RCR, it's a little cheaper than full slabbing. If you get your card back at a show and immediately submit it for full grading (at the full grading price, so paying almost double...) you are nearly guaranteed to get the same grade. Once you take it away from the table, the grade is no longer guaranteed. So it's sort of useful, but not very useful.
And when you can get your cards graded by PSA in a bulk special for cheaper, it makes almost no sense.
On cheaper cards, people are not slabbing, just selling as is, so the buyer knows what the card is. On more expensive cards, slab 9.5 or 10 and just sell if 9 or less. Raw~BGS 9. RCR normally runs about half (or less in bulk) of slabbing. Now about a third since they cut the 10 day service. It is really the only way to grade unless you know you have a sure gem and it is worth paying $30 to grade.
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  #62  
Old 08-30-2018, 06:48 AM
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I'm just floored that BGS thinks it is perfectly acceptable to cash your check and not perform a paid for service after one year. That just blows me away, and begs for some kind of class action lawsuit.
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  #63  
Old 08-30-2018, 07:03 AM
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I'm just floored that BGS thinks it is perfectly acceptable to cash your check and not perform a paid for service after one year. That just blows me away, and begs for some kind of class action lawsuit.
maybe the answer is, developing a set minimum card value for grading and eliminate grading reprints. I see too many collectors (often novice) submitting cards worth less than $1 in value.
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  #64  
Old 08-30-2018, 07:24 AM
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maybe the answer is, developing a set minimum card value for grading and eliminate grading reprints. I see too many collectors (often novice) submitting cards worth less than $1 in value.
Seems like a great way to destroy the market base of player and set collectors.
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  #65  
Old 08-30-2018, 09:04 AM
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The other grading companies seem able to find the right balance between the revenues they are taking in and having enough employees to grade the cards in a reasonably timely fashion. Not sure why Beckett can't manage the same.
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  #66  
Old 08-30-2018, 09:11 AM
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There are plenty of cards that raw might sell for less than a buck that graded in a 10 can increase exponentially.

The other issue is a lot of collectors just like to see the card in a graded slab and if they are willing to shell out the grading fee the companies should gladly take it.
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  #67  
Old 08-30-2018, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dpeck100 View Post
There are plenty of cards that raw might sell for less than a buck that graded in a 10 can increase exponentially.

The other issue is a lot of collectors just like to see the card in a graded slab and if they are willing to shell out the grading fee the companies should gladly take it.
Telling customers they can't submit doesn't seem like a good solution to anything. If you're at that point might as well shutter the place.
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  #68  
Old 08-30-2018, 09:23 AM
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Telling customers they can't submit doesn't seem like a good solution to anything.
Agreed...but not performing a service for a year is TOTALLY unacceptable. I can think of nothing else that you pay for and wait a year to receive service.
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  #69  
Old 08-30-2018, 09:35 AM
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Maintaining your seat at most major NASCAR or Indy car races for the upcoming year REQUIRES that you pay for your seat essentially as soon as this year's race ends... and you get NOTHING for it, besides a seat and a ticket...

The Speedway at Indianapolis can hold upwards of 500,000 fannies at at least $100 per fanny...

Just saying that I would like a piece of that interest...
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  #70  
Old 08-30-2018, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by bobbyw8469 View Post
I'm just floored that BGS thinks it is perfectly acceptable to cash your check and not perform a paid for service after one year. That just blows me away, and begs for some kind of class action lawsuit.
It is not just that, but they are sending their graders out to card shows and card shops to do RCR every week while sitting on those bulk orders for 11 months. Proper business would be to take care of those orders in hand and paid for instead of taking on new business and letting them jump the line in front of bulk orders.
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  #71  
Old 08-30-2018, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
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Agreed...but not performing a service for a year is TOTALLY unacceptable. I can think of nothing else that you pay for and wait a year to receive service.

I think it’s ridiculous, too, although I can think of a number of examples of waiting for long periods (if not a year) with money locked in before something is done/happens. I have bought tickets for a concert 9 months away and put down a deposit for work on my house that was months out (with the deposit being many times more significant that what BGS would charge for grading). Hotel/camp/etc. reservations for events and dates that are in high demand routinely become available one year prior and people jump at the chance to take them as soon as they can.

If you provide something with a high demand, it seems people are more than willing to pay just to wait in line.


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  #72  
Old 08-30-2018, 10:15 AM
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There is a huge difference between buying sporting tickets knowing you have to pay in advance and knowing the season doesn't start for a year vs. sending in cards to be graded thinking they will take two months or so and instead are pushing a year with indications it may be another four to six months.

Absolutely horrific business practice.

This is a major red flag that there could be a serious cash flow issue with the company.

I think competition is good so hopefully they get this rectified.
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  #73  
Old 08-30-2018, 10:27 AM
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I cannot agree more with the thoughts voiced on this thread.

A year is absurd: hire and train some more people, for crissakes. What BGS is doing is just crappy customer service.

I also agree that the grading lottery is way worse with BGS than with PSA because of the silliness of the subgrades. I submitted one card at the National in AC, and only because the PSA line was too long:



The card is spectacular. The subgrades are nonsense. The same set yielded these:





The three are identical in terms of condition.
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  #74  
Old 08-30-2018, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dpeck100 View Post
There is a huge difference between buying sporting tickets knowing you have to pay in advance and knowing the season doesn't start for a year vs. sending in cards to be graded thinking they will take two months or so and instead are pushing a year with indications it may be another four to six months.

I am totally NOT defending BGS on this, but we are talking about the non-guaranteed service, so there is no promise (as I can tell) on the turnaround. It’s just people getting in the back of a line that now takes a year. The other levels of service (2, 5 and 20-day), I assume, take precedence and the non-guaranteed orders are done whenever they get around to it.

I still agree a year is ridiculous and I would NEVER get in that line (I won’t wait in a line for much these days), but people should know they are signing up for a service that has no promised delivery date.



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  #75  
Old 08-30-2018, 12:36 PM
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I cannot agree more with the thoughts voiced on this thread.

A year is absurd: hire and train some more people, for crissakes. What BGS is doing is just crappy customer service.

I also agree that the grading lottery is way worse with BGS than with PSA because of the silliness of the subgrades. I submitted one card at the National in AC, and only because the PSA line was too long:



The card is spectacular. The subgrades are nonsense. The same set yielded these:





The three are identical in terms of condition.

... I had always wondered about how BGS graders arrived at their final grade because it obviously wasn't just an "average" of the four subs ; many years ago , just before 9/11 as I recall , at the Fort Washington,PA show , someone at their table explained to me that the values of the subs were weighted , with corners and centering counting the most , and surfaces and edges less so ; and in answer to a specific question he also told me why the particular sub-grade for "corners" was almost always the lowest of the four subs : " Beckett graders consider a sportscard to have eight corners i.e. the 4 on the front and then the other 4 on the reverse"---- sooooo all that plus the high value put upon that particular sub-grade is perhaps why we just shake our heads when the cards come back and mutter unkind words about Beckett graders.----- I have seen a BGS final grade of more than .5 higher than the 'corners' grade perhaps twice ?? in twenty years , and they were very low end cards to start with. PSA's 'eye appeal' factor doesn't exist in Texas. And I remember they gave me a very nice Beckett Tee-shirt.

..
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  #76  
Old 08-30-2018, 01:02 PM
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... I had always wondered about how BGS graders arrived at their final grade because it obviously wasn't just an "average" of the four subs ; many years ago , just before 9/11 as I recall , at the Fort Washington,PA show , someone at their table explained to me that the values of the subs were weighted , with corners and centering counting the most , and surfaces and edges less so ; and in answer to a specific question he also told me why the particular sub-grade for "corners" was almost always the lowest of the four subs : " Beckett graders consider a sportscard to have eight corners i.e. the 4 on the front and then the other 4 on the reverse"---- sooooo all that plus the high value put upon that particular sub-grade is perhaps why we just shake our heads when the cards come back and mutter unkind words about Beckett graders.----- I have seen a BGS final grade of more than .5 higher than the 'corners' grade perhaps twice ?? in twenty years , and they were very low end cards to start with. PSA's 'eye appeal' factor doesn't exist in Texas. And I remember they gave me a very nice Beckett Tee-shirt.

..
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  #77  
Old 08-30-2018, 01:03 PM
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I thought the overall grade could not be more than .5 higher than the lowest sub but maybe I am wrong about that.
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  #78  
Old 08-30-2018, 01:10 PM
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Peter that was my understanding too.
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  #79  
Old 08-30-2018, 01:29 PM
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I thought the overall grade could not be more than .5 higher than the lowest sub but maybe I am wrong about that.
This is my understanding, too.
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Old 08-30-2018, 03:02 PM
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I have seen rare circumstances when it was 1 grade higher. For example if centering, corners and edges were really high, say 8-9 and surface was low, say 3, the card could be a 4.
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Old 08-30-2018, 03:40 PM
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True, the grade can be up to one grade higher than the lowest subgrade, depending on the subgrade.
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  #82  
Old 08-30-2018, 05:18 PM
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True, the grade can be up to one grade higher than the lowest subgrade, depending on the subgrade.
..

...This has to be the Black Swan of Beckett Grading -- I take back what I had said earlier..but I must note that this had been graded during the more recent and less-strict-on-vintage "BVG /subs on front" period , and not by the old curmudgeonly "BGS" standards used until 2002..those days were absolutely brutal....

..
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  #83  
Old 08-30-2018, 07:01 PM
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OT: I have an SGC card graded a 5 and I'm wondering if there's a way to see what the sub-grades are on their site. The corners are sharp as heck, so I imagine the fact it is way o/c is the reason for the grade. Is that info available there?
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  #84  
Old 08-31-2018, 12:56 PM
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News from yesterday's CLCT report. PSA is absolutely crushing it.


Our cards and autograph service revenues increased by $0.9 million, in the
fourth quarter and by $3.1 million, in fiscal 2018 which represented increases
of 18% in both periods and record quarterly and annual revenues for that
business.
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  #85  
Old 08-31-2018, 01:21 PM
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calvindog calvindog is offline
Jeffrey Lichtman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dpeck100 View Post
News from yesterday's CLCT report. PSA is absolutely crushing it.


Our cards and autograph service revenues increased by $0.9 million, in the
fourth quarter and by $3.1 million, in fiscal 2018 which represented increases
of 18% in both periods and record quarterly and annual revenues for that
business.
Yes and the stock had a nice bounce off it's 52 week low; now only half of its 52 week high.
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  #86  
Old 08-31-2018, 02:24 PM
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Dpeck100 Dpeck100 is offline
David Peck
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Originally Posted by calvindog View Post
Yes and the stock had a nice bounce off it's 52 week low; now only half of its 52 week high.


Coin business still very weak in the report.
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  #87  
Old 09-01-2018, 03:28 PM
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conor912 conor912 is offline
C0nor D0na.hue
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
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Originally Posted by calvindog View Post
Yes and the stock had a nice bounce off it's 52 week low; now only half of its 52 week high.
Hadn't looked in a long time...what happened back in Feb to cause the nosedive?
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  #88  
Old 09-03-2018, 01:54 PM
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Santo10Fan Santo10Fan is offline
Ben
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dpeck100 View Post
Coin business still very weak in the report.
I was briefly into coins after inheriting my father's set. One thing that really stings is coins & paper money are excluded from ebay's rather generous promo codes that appear from time to time
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