Mystery Lajoie Card in Legendary Auction

[paul]

Now that the auction for this lot is over, do any of you know what this mystery Lajoie card might be?

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...x?lotid=128214

The folks at Legendary said that it measures 1 1/2 x 2 3/4.

[Bicem]

you win it Paul?

[Leon]

Maybe a 1915 W-unc variation? Other than that maybe (I am not saying it is) something cut from some kind of ad piece.....now let me get back to bidding on the Rose- Cobby.....

I should add that the Lajoie card does look like a mfg cut...so that is a good sign...

[paul]

Jeff, surprisingly I did. I thought for sure it would go to Leon.

The card looks very much like the Felix Mendelsohn proofs (only Matty, Johsnon and Schalk are known), but it is much too small.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by paul

Jeff, surprisingly I did. I thought for sure it would go to Leon.

I have (4) 1915 W-Uncs........I think it's a variation of them but that is just a guess......neat card. Congrats.

[Bicem]

Great card... congrats! Rob must have fallen asleep.

[terjung]

I figured Rob would win it too. I love the pose on that one. Congrats, Paul.

[benchod]

I was the under bidder
It depicts Nap as a Phillie so I knew Rob wouldn't be interested
Congrats on a neat pickup

[Exhibitman]

I thought that was really intriguing too. Nice p/u.

[jtschantz]

my bet is that Rob stayed off of it because he is pictured in a Philly uniform and not our "beloved Clevelander's"

[JamesGallo]

I don't know the image looks like that type of period but the stock doesnt look the same as the UNC set. Looks closer to the Sporting news set a bit thinner and with a more defined boarder.

James G

[Leon]

Originally Posted by JamesGallo

I don't know the image looks like that type of period but the stock doesnt look the same as the UNC set. Looks closer to the Sporting news set a bit thinner and with a more defined boarder.

James G

Agreed. The more I look at it the more I think it is different. I have seen some display pieces, I believe, that had images close to that one. I just hope, for Paul's sake, in the future we don't find a piece like I did with the 1935 Manager strip cards.....Still a neat piece but of unknown origins.

[Wite3]

Does not show Lajoie as a Phillie but as an Athletic (1915)...otherwise, I might have bid.

Joshua

[nolemmings]

Actually, it shows Nap in a 1909 or earlier Cleveland uniform.

Image is the same as the c. 1915 W-Unc Lajoie but is crisper and on different stock, as noted. Of course caption is different than the other W-unc too.

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Actually, it shows Nap in a 1909 or earlier Cleveland uniform.

Image is the same as the c. 1915 W-Unc Lajoie but is crisper and on different stock, as noted. Of course caption is different than the other W-unc too.

Thought it was a Clev uniform too, good info!

[Hankphenom]

This "card" was cut from a mailer sent by the Felix Mendelsohn company of Chicago to solicit advertisers for the backs of their baseball player card set of 200. I have the complete mailer, which contains a horizontal strip of six players: Nap Lajoie, Heinie Zimmerman, Grover Alexander, Johnny Evers, Eddie Collins, and Honus Wagner. The paper stock is heavy, but I don't know how it would compare to the M101-4 and M101-5 cards it is soliciting advertisers for. The printing font is apparently different, too, so perhaps this mailer was made before the set itself was produced. Under the strip, which makes up one side of the broadside when folded for mailing (the other side has lines for the address and a stamp box) is the question: "These men are better known to the majority of your prospects than Thos. Edison, Henry Ford, Sec'y Lansing, Marconi, Lord Kitchener, or Von Hindenburg. Why?") The broadside inside goes to great lengths to explain why. I'd include a picture, but don't have a scanner. I'll bring it to the Valley Forge show in June if anybody wants to see it.

By the way, what did it go for? I can't seem to access last night's results, even when logged in. Why is that?

[dstudeba]

Thanks Hank, that is great information.

[Bicem]

wow -- thanks Hank!

$1700 plus the juice

[dallen]

That is very interesting Hank!

The card came from a fresh collection on the east coast that contained the Brunner's Cobb, The T-3 Proofs and many of the rare type cards in the auction. I rember looking at the card when it came in and I do believe it was on thinner paper stock then M101s as described by Hank. That being said it had a vintage cut and wear typical of what you would see on a VG card.

Hank if you could email me a copy of your brochure I would greatly appreciate it.

Once this is verifed obvioulsy the sale will be negated.

Sincerely,
Doug Allen

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

By the way, what did it go for? I can't seem to access last night's results, even when logged in. Why is that?

Hank, log in and add it to your 'watch list' - then you can go to your 'my account' page and see the final bid.

[nolemmings]

Thanks Hank.

This is curious in a couple of other respects. First, The Successful Farming promo ad I posted last month shows how you could acquire 6 free cards--the same 6 in Hank's mailer except Wagner was replaced by some guy named Joe Jackson. The Lajoie in that group, however, showed the same image as his m101 card, and bears the same font/caption except for number as the m101.
Seems Mendelsohn may have produced a "test" or "sample" set of 6 on a different sheet.

This Lajoie is clearly different. However, since the other c. 1915 W-unc also shows the same image of Lajoie, I'm wondering if Hank can provide more information on this portion of his "strip" and its caption--for example, did they spell Lajoie's first name correctly?

[paul]

Thank you Hank for the information. And thank you Doug Allen for stepping up to the plate on this one. Obviously, neither one of us thought this was a cut out from an advertising flyer.

Paul

[dallen]

BTW looking back at our notes in December we made an inquiry of Bob Lemke and he was of the belief that this card would be part of the "1915 W-UNC Strip Cards" series listed on page 604 of the 2012 Standard Catalog. That being said the checklist does not match the names identified by Hank on his advertising piece.

[paul]

I looked at the catalogued W-UNC card listing during the auction and decided that the Lajoie couldn't be part of that set. The caption is very different and I think the sizes are a little different too. Also, the photo quality is very different. I really thought it was one of the 2 1/4" x 4" Mendelson proofs until I found out the size was too small.

[Leon]

It definitely has a different look to it

than these do...

[nolemmings]

Paul,

FWIW, the Mendelsohn "proofs" as you call them have a different font and do not use the double dash.

Doug,

While the checklist from Hank's mailer does not match up perfectly with known c. 1915 W-UNCs, four of the six are there. Perhaps the other two--Collins and Alexander--will surface. BTW, I was mistaken in my comparison of Hanks' 6 card strip to the Successful Farming Promos--the latter contain Baker instead of Collins.

[Hankphenom]

I sincerely apologize for the confusion, but it wasn't until I saw Leon's blowup of the Legendary card (which it might actually be, my original input to the contrary) that I realized that the one on my mailer strip has several minor, but obviously very significant, differences. The size, image, and type font are exactly the same. BUT--my "Napolean" is spelled differently, and instead of being in all caps has only the "N," "L," and "J" in caps. In addition, mine has no double dash after the "B" in "2nd B." One other difference is the right margin, which on mine couldn't be cut quite as widely as seen in the Legendary example without impinging into the next "card" of Zimmerman to its right. The left margin of mine could be cut to 3/8" if desired, as that is the amount of blank space to the left border of the mailer. I feel terrible about any disruption I might have caused to the Legendary auction by my inaccurate intrusion upon it, and will immediately apologize to Doug and alert him to the new information. If the buyer sees this, you have my apology also. I will get scans of my piece up without a day or so for those who might be interested to see it, to show the differences I have mentioned, and also to partly atone for my sins.
Hank

[paul]

I'm the buyer, and no need to apologize. Because Legendary offered to cancel the sale immediately after your post, I felt safe. If the card turned out to be a cut out, there would be no sale, but otherwise I got a great and mysterious card. I look forward to seeing the post of your flyer.

Paul

[dallen]

Hank....thanks for the apology but not necessary!

Paul....now you have to pay your invoice!!

[paul]

Doug, I'm happy to do it. It was going to be a real pain trying to pay only a partial invoice for the other lots I won.

[Hankphenom]

I hope this works, first attempt at attaching pics to a post.

Dimensions:
Folded as mailed: 9&1/2" x 4&1/4"
Fully unfolded: 14" x 12"


scan0001.jpg

scan0002.jpg

chicago 012.jpg

chicago 014.jpg

[dallen]

What an awesome piece! Thanks for sharing.

[Brian Van Horn]

1915 Unc. Here are some others:

[JamesGallo]

Very different from this card

[paul]

Hank, do the "cards" on your strip have a blank back, or do they have part of the extensive Felix Mendelsohn advertising on the back? Thanks.

Paul

[spec]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

I hope this works, first attempt at attaching pics to a post.

Dimensions:
Folded as mailed: 9&1/2" x 4&1/4"
Fully unfolded: 14" x 12"


Attachment 58697

Attachment 58698

Attachment 58699

Attachment 58700

Hank,
Thanks for sharing your promotional piece. It now seems certain the card in question, as well as all/most of the W-Unc mystery cards we've seen in recent years are products of the Mendelsohn empire. Whether uncataloged card sets, remnants of advertising/promotional pieces or some sort of preproduction mockups remains to be seen, of course.

[packs]

I don't think it's the same image. There is no double dash in the ad piece. There is a double dash between the position on the Legendary card. "2nd B. -- Philadelphia."

Also, the name is spelled differently on both images. Napolean vs Napoleon.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by paul

Hank, do the "cards" on your strip have a blank back, or do they have part of the extensive Felix Mendelsohn advertising on the back? Thanks.

Paul

Yes, they do have the printing back, which takes up one entire side of the piece. thanks, Paul, for pointing that out. Why I didn't think of that before I shot my mouth off is beyond me, but this whole thing is making me feel dummer all the time. Well, at least it made me go to the trouble of posting the pics, which were hopefully enjoyed by a few members. Now I have a question: Someone mentioned the "Mendelsohn empire--could someone enlighten me as to the history of that company as it relates to baseball cards, and why aren't these M-101 cards called Mendelsohn's?

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by packs

I don't think it's the same image. There is no double dash in the ad piece. There is a double dash between the position on the Legendary card. "2nd B. -- Philadelphia."

Also, the name is spelled differently on both images. Napolean vs Napoleon.

All of that has already been pointed out in a previous post.

[Hankphenom]

One other curiosity: all the photos on my piece are the same as on the M101-4 and M101-5 cards except the Lajoie, which has an entirely different pose altogether. Another question: what is the difference between the two sets, just different years?

[paul]

The M101-4 set is a slight update of the M101-5 set. The player selection is slightly different, and the numbers of most cards differ, though some cards like Ruth have the same number in both sets.

Mendelsohn was the publisher that produced both sets, along with M101-6 and an extremely rare set of three cards that I called "proofs" in an earlier post. The Standard Catalog did list all four sets as "Mendelsohns" for awhile, but is now using that name only for M101-6 and the rare set of three cards.

It does seem pretty clear that my Lajoie is related in some way to Mendelsohn. I can only guess that Mendelsohn decided at the last minute to substitute a different photo for Lajoie in the M101-4/5 sets. Why there is a card of Lajoie with the original photo is anyone's guess. It may be a prototype for a set that never was. The wear on the corners of the Lajoie looks consistent with a card stock to me, not a paper cut out -- but E107 Type 2s are apparently cut outs of some kind and they are on card stock. And there are Koester bread cards that were cut out of a very heavy card stock sheet. So I guess I don't really know for sure. But the Lajoie card sure does seem to have a very professional cut to it, not hand cut.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by paul

It does seem pretty clear that my Lajoie is related in some way to Mendelsohn. I can only guess that Mendelsohn decided at the last minute to substitute a different photo for Lajoie in the M101-4/5 sets. Why there is a card of Lajoie with the original photo is anyone's guess. It may be a prototype for a set that never was. The wear on the corners of the Lajoie looks consistent with a card stock to me, not a paper cut out -- but E107 Type 2s are apparently cut outs of some kind and they are on card stock. And there are Koester bread cards that were cut out of a very heavy card stock sheet. So I guess I don't really know for sure. But the Lajoie card sure does seem to have a very professional cut to it, not hand cut.

Paul,
My brother-in-law, who knows nothing about any of this, said immediately about the mystery of your card: "Maybe it's a salesman's sample, made around the time of the mailer campaign for their salesmen to show prospective customers." Seemed plausible. But then you'd think they'd have put a beautiful ad on the back to show what their printers could do for the customer. So who knows? But I don't think there's any doubt that your card (and it does, indeed, look like a card) and my piece are related, which connects yours directly to the M101 sets. Who doesn't love a mystery!
Hank

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by paul

The M101-4 set is a slight update of the M101-5 set. The player selection is slightly different, and the numbers of most cards differ, though some cards like Ruth have the same number in both sets.

Mendelsohn was the publisher that produced both sets, along with M101-6 and an extremely rare set of three cards that I called "proofs" in an earlier post. The Standard Catalog did list all four sets as "Mendelsohns" for awhile, but is now using that name only for M101-6 and the rare set of three cards.
I

What are the years of the M101-4 and M101-5 sets, both 1916? And why is the update a lower number? How many different advertiser backs are known? Are there complete sets for all the back variations? And I wonder if it was known the circumstances of how the different backs came to be before my mailer explained it?

[nolemmings]

What are the years of the M101-4 and M101-5 sets, both 1916? And why is the update a lower number? How many different advertiser backs are known? Are there complete sets for all the back variations? And I wonder if it was known the circumstances of how the different backs came to be before my mailer explained it?

Hank, the year of issue for both sets was 1916. It is unknown why Burdick got the numbering wrong. There are 18 different advertisers, and compiling a complete set of any other than the most common three or four is nearly impossible, unless you stumble into a find where it was already assembled. Of the scarcer backs, even I were to spot you 175 of the 200 you almost certainly would never finish. No, your mailer provides the specifics of Mendelsohn's solicitation for the first time, although the fact of such solicitation was always suspected.

BTW, I believe the Lajoie image was changed so as to show him in a Philadelphia uniform--Mendelsohn was a stickler for trying to get it right, at least if he had access to an alternative image.

[Hankphenom]

I wonder if the rarity of the different backs might be related to the price points laid out on the flyer:
500 sets-$2.00 each
1,250 sets--$1.50 each
2,500 sets--$1.25 each
5,000 sets--95c each

And are there any uncut sheets known? There should be if they followed through with this offer:
"So that collectors will know just what pictures and the number of pictures comprising the complete series we will furnish you in quantities according to your purchases one complete show card on which will be mounted in one display the entire set of 200 photographs."

Lastly, at the bottom of the flyer there is this:
"Special note--These two hundred pictures on one 3-ply card framed (without glass) in mahogany stained oak frame bearing your imprint, wired, ready for hanging. Picture heavily glazed. In lots of 250...$1.05 each In lots of 500...90c each."

Are they really, as it seems, offering to ship you 250 uncut and framed complete sheets for a buck each? Are any of these known to exist? If they had carried through with this, some of them would surely have survived.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

I wonder if the rarity of the different backs might be related to the price points laid out on the flyer:
500 sets-$2.00 each
1,250 sets--$1.50 each
2,500 sets--$1.25 each
5,000 sets--95c each

And are there any uncut sheets known? There should be if they followed through with this offer:
"So that collectors will know just what pictures and the number of pictures comprising the complete series we will furnish you in quantities according to your purchases one complete show card on which will be mounted in one display the entire set of 200 photographs."

Lastly, at the bottom of the flyer there is this:
"Special note--These two hundred pictures on one 3-ply card framed (without glass) in mahogany stained oak frame bearing your imprint, wired, ready for hanging. Picture heavily glazed. In lots of 250...$1.05 each In lots of 500...90c each."

Are they really, as it seems, offering to ship you 250 uncut and framed complete sheets for a buck each? Are any of these known to exist? If they had carried through with this, some of them would surely have survived.

There are several uncut sheets known. One of them, I am aware of, is from the first series with Thorpe on it.

[Hankphenom]

Do you know if any are complete, with all 200 cards? Of course, Mendelsohn's offered displays could have been created in sections.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Do you know if any are complete, with all 200 cards? Of course, Mendelsohn's offered displays could have been created in sections.

The 3-5 I have seen are complete at 200 cards.

[fkw]

I think there is at least 2 of the Lajoies floating around...
Here is an image I have of the Lajoie, I dont think its the same card as in the SGC-40 slab, there are some similar wear, but on this card there is even more wear on the edges and some other slight differences in print and dirt. sorry about the bad scan Ive had this scan for years lifted from some place I dont remember.

[Matthew H]

Hank, here is a link to a sheet with what might be an original frame:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ght=m101+sheet