Johnson 8 (hands at chest) in Mastro's

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Posted By: MVSNYC

i don't mean to cause a whole big rukus here, and let me start by saying that i support & collect PSA and mastro's...

i couldn't help noticing this card in mastro's and am surprised you PSA haters haven't said anything about this yet...this card appears small, but it is slabbed by PSA...with all of the recent talk of "preparing" cards, would you guys say the general consensious is that there should not be any concerns, because it is an older slab, vs. a newer one?

let the flood gates open...

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Posted By: T206Collector

As I've said numerous times before, I stay away from cards as highly graded as this one. Not only is the price prohibitive, but this card is presumptively trimmed even before you show me a scan with borders as thin as those.

To me, unless you can get SGC, PSA and Beckett to all agree that an 8 hasn't been trimmed, your single slab isn't enough to overcome the presumption of alteration.

But my favorite thing about this listing is the time and care that went into writing the description: "...a glistening red Piedmont-brand advertisement appears on the reverse."

Corrected link:

http://www.mastroauctions.com/index.cfm?action=DisplayContent&ContentName=Lot%20Information&LotIndex=65676&CurrentRow=1

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Posted By: Steve M.

It looks exactly the same size as the SOV350 I sent you. Re-Submit and you've made eight grand!

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Posted By: JK

While its impossible to tell for sure from a scan, those borders look awfully suspect. Perhaps the reason its not been brought up specifically is that it you almost expect it with such cards.

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Posted By: Bill K

Compare it size wise to the Johnson Port. PSA 9 and you will get your answer. Can open, worms everywhere!

Bill

My personal collection - http://s47.photobucket.com/albums/f176/fkm_bky/

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Posted By: T206Collector

Do any regular contributors on this Board other than Jim C. collect PSA 8 pre-war cards?

I often wonder how these collectors deal with the presumption of alteration here after putting down $2,000+ for PSA 8 common T206's.

I would be curious to hear some answers to that.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

i collect T206 PSA 8's, so this topic is important to me...as mentioned above, i do support PSA & Mastro's, but just wanted to get some opinions on older slabs vs. newer ones...

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Posted By: Brett

The borders on this e97 Young look a little thin too....

http://www.mastronet.com/index.cfm?action=DisplayContent&ContentName=Lot%20Information&LotIndex=67014&CurrentRow=1

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Posted By: T206Collector

I think there has been some discussion on the older/newer PSA slabs before, and there were arguments on both sides. For example, when I first got into T206 collecting, my collection was initially based on a lot of 11 PSA graded T206 cards, all graded prior to year 2000 and containing the old hologram on the back (as opposed to the Nasdaq/NYSE initials CLCT), that I got on ebay for $500. This lot included a PSA 6 Hal Chase with a corner crease. However, one of the reasons I got out of PSA grading was because of all of the problems with the company that arose after I began collecting. So, I am not sure you can slice it old vs. new, but real PSA collectors may have different opinions.

But as a T206 PSA 8 collector, do you stay away from cards like this Johnson which look to the naked eye to have much too thin borders?

And, what do you think about my proposal that Grade 8 collectors have their cards independently graded by PSA, SGC and BVG or GAI for confirmation that their 8's really are 8's?

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Posted By: MVSNYC

T206 Collector-

good questions...

i will personally stay "off" of this Johnson, but that's not to say i am not bidding on other things in Mastro's...for my money, i just like to see big white borders, that's all.


as for the second question...not sure i fully understand, can you elaborate, please?

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Posted By: T206Collector

[For my money, i just like to see big white borders, that's all.]

That means you buy the card, not the holder, even though you collect 8's. Obviously a lot of people bidding on the Johnson are going a different direction -- one that troubles us because the accuracy of the grade is questionable.

With respect to the 3-party grading concept, it seems to me that a lot of fuss is made about the sharp cornered PSA 8's you collect -- the suspicion being that a 100 year old piece of cardboard could not have survived in that condition without a little help. Indeed, your hesitancy about this Johnson, even though you collect PSA 8's, reflects your lack of blind trust. Let me pose it as a hypothetical -- would you be more inclined to bid on this PSA 8 Johnson if it was slabbed by PSA, but SGC and GAI both put holographic serial-numbered non-removable stickers on the slab certifying that in their professional opinion this card had not been trimmed and warrants an 8 grade?

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Posted By: MVSNYC

i have been collecting T206 cards for 15 years now...i started out buying raw cards, mostly beaters, some vg-ex...but i was absolutely in love with the set, and i know alot of history surrounding the game...i then starting becoming a stickler on condition: centering, sharpness, registration (clarity), etc...now that i collect high grade examples, my passion is still there, i am just now able to afford better pieces vs. my youth...I ALWAYS have collected the "card" NOT the "holder"...

if i understand your question correctly...i think if the other 2 big grading companies also endorsed the card, that would say to me 3/3 agree it's unaltered, i would believe it to be unaltered, BUT i still would rather have a better looking example in my collection with big, white, well-centered borders...

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Posted By: T206Collector

...for the input. I appreciate the insight.

What percentage of PSA 8 T206 cards that you have seen in your 15 years of collecting T206 cards would you say have borders that resemble those of Johnson? Could you even estimate something like that? 1 out of 10? 5 out of 10?

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Autograph expert Mark Allen Baker was once commenting on collecting autograph
variations. He said it's true Joe DiMaggio might be signing on the run or
in a funny position and the 100% geneuine DiMaggio autograph can look somewhat
abnormal. However, he said why would you purchase the weird variation over one
that looks like DiMaggio's classic signature. Even if both are authentic, you're
going to have to do some explaining when selling the strange variation, while
the classic example is the one everyone expects.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

well, an expert on PSA 8's, I'm not (you'll have to ask Jim Crandell for that)...i've only gotten into high grade cards over the last 2 years...but as far as T206 cards go in general, i do actually consider myself VERY knowledgable...every once in a while, i'll see cards with similar borders to that one, and i usually steer clear, mainly because i do not like the way they look...

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Posted By: Brett

I've seen many high grade t206s on ebay that looked trimmed, yet PSA grades them !!

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Posted By: T206Collector

I am quite tempted to offer some high grade PSA collector a lot of money to have his cards independently reviewed by SGC and Beckett or GAI. I would then like to publish the findings on this board or elsewhere. I wonder how many high grade PSA collectors would go for it. And, I wonder what the results would be.

To me, such a study could perhaps finally end all the graded card and class warfare arguments that we all make. If, for example, Jim C. submits his 150 PSA graded 8 T206 cards to SGC for review, and then they go to GAI for their review, and then we see what all three companies have to say about the same 150 cards, it would shed some light on the credibility of such grades, don't you think?

The cards wouldn't even have to be cracked out of their holders.

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Posted By: Darren

Long ago I made a decision to focus on midgrade cards for my pre-war collection, boy I'm I glad I did.

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Posted By: T206Collector

[Long ago I made a decision to focus on midgrade cards for my pre-war collection, boy I'm I glad I did.]

Me, too. Otherwise I'd be staying up at night staring at the corners and placing my ruler up against the plastic slab trying to determine if it all measured up right. Obviously, some collectors are able to just plunk down a few grand on PSA's word that the card is just about perfect, regardless of circumstantial evidence to the contrary.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Paul, if the Johnson above is "presumptively trimmed" why will it sell for 11K? Perhaps it is just presumptively trimmed in your home.

It happens to be an early PSA grade as you can tell by the flip and the number. I find that the grades of these cards are a lot more uneven than the later ones.

As I have a couple thousand pre-war and 50s cards in PSA 8 and 9, I can assure you I don't stay up all night wondering if my cards are trimmed. In fact, I've probably not spent more than 10 total minutes (including 3 on this post) even thinking about it. There is such a huge market for these cards in high grade that people will buy them, period. And why else would you be up all night worried if these cards were trimmed other than your concern that they are worthless and not sell? Trust me, they will sell and you'll sleep like a baby.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Despite all the discussions we have had on this board, I think Jeff is correct that once a card is slabbed it will sell no matter what. There may be a few people who stay away from cards that appear small but there are just too many out there who want them. And the majority won't even question them. I am not saying it is right to put a trimmed card in a holder, and I take the grading services to task for their outright carelessness, but the fact is you can sell any PSA 8 card at any time. You may not like the card yourself, but be certain that somebody else will.

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Posted By: JimB

T206,
What about important highgrade T206 HOFs like Matty portraits in SGC 80? Should we presume they are trimmed unless varified by all three grading companies. Surely you would not argue that SGC 80 is not highgrade, or that there would not be financial incentive to try to get a card like that, if altered, into a holder.

I am not commenting on the Johnson in particular (I don't think a fair assessment can be made from a scan), but since when do we presume guilt in this country? Sure some trimmed cards have made their way into holders (of all three of the big grading companies), but I would guess it is far less than 1% and that is not enough to presume guilt in my book.

Personally, I examine every card I buy very closely, regardless of the holder (or lack thereof). But I do not make presumptions that contradict the evidence in my book.
JimB

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Posted By: T206Collector

[Paul, if the Johnson above is "presumptively trimmed" why will it sell for 11K?]

I think you answered your own question -- "There is such a huge market for these cards in high grade that people will buy them, period. And why else would you be up all night worried if these cards were trimmed other than your concern that they are worthless and not sell? Trust me, they will sell and you'll sleep like a baby."

It really only takes two people that think PSA is always right to bid a card up to whatever they're willing to pay for it. I don't think the price two or more people are willing to pay is evidence one way or another about the grade of the card.

[I think Jeff is correct that once a card is slabbed it will sell no matter what.]

Agreed, but not my point. I am more concerned about "the majority [that] won't even question them." If the answer is that they won't question it because they can resell it, then I think that's flawed reasoning -- especially from collectors that pride themselves of really high grade cards. That is, don't high grade collectors care first and foremost about having the mintiest card ever? The answers in this thread are that they're more concerned about the resale value.


[What about important highgrade T206 HOFs like Matty portraits in SGC 80? Should we presume they are trimmed unless varified by all three grading companies.]

I had my Matt T206 portrait graded a 6 by PSA and an 80 by SGC. I think that is sufficient to remove all doubt I had. I leave it open to anyone with high grade cards if they want to have GAI or BVG have a go at them as well. But at some point, I think dual or tri grading would be an interesting study of high grade pre-war cards.

[Since when do we presume guilt in this country.]

Presumptions of innocent in criminal trials are much different than the odds of a piece of cardboard with snow white borders surviving 100 years in immaculate condition without a little help. There are a lot of trimmed cards out there -- and the stories that I read on this Board 4 or 5 years ago when I began collecting T206 earnestly were that dealers were forking over huge figures to secure oversized T206 cards that could be shaved down to fit nicely into high grade PSA holders. Haven't you heard those stories? Don't high grade collectors care about those stories?

[Sure some trimmed cards have made their way into holders (of all three of the big grading companies), but I would guess it is far less than 1% and that is not enough to presume guilt in my book.]

Your guess is as good as mine -- that is why I want to have an experiment. If after we send 150 PSA 8 T206 cards to SGC under 2 (i.e. 1%) come back as trimmed, then I would say the presumption is unwarranted. But what if 15 came back trimmed? Is it unreasonable to believe that 15 of 150 PSA 8 T206 cards would not be crossed over into an SGC holder because of evidence of trimming? You know who I bet has the answer to that question? The graders at SGC who see a whole boat load of PSA cards all the time. They'd have the answer that question....

And I'm not slamming PSA. If you want to start with 150 SGC 80+ T206 cards and have PSA have a go at them, I'd be interested in that study, too.

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Posted By: quan

for someone who's trying to put together a t206 set in sgc40s, you're spending an awful lot of time on a high grade PSA t206 card. being a caramel collector i know i'm riveted to every t209 obak thread started.

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Posted By: T206Collector

Quan,

First of all, your assumptions are wrong -- I am trying to keep my average above SGC 40, but many of the HOFers that I have are 50's, 60's, 70's and one 80. I have a ton of filler that needs upgrading. Moreover, I am not interested in high grade collectors of Goudey Gum cards or Play Ball cards or Topps or Bowman, for that matter. I am really interested in the high grade T206 collectors. (In any event, I don't believe that the PSA 8 collectors go after much pre-WWI stuff other than T206, which happens to be my passion.)

I personally am trying to understand the mentality of those who collect higher than SGC 80 T206 cards, because I have always stayed away from such cards, not only because of cost -- and by this, I don't exclusively mean ability to purchase, I mean that I'd rather have 100 $20 T206 cards than 1 $2,000 card -- but because of a distrust of the grading system for cards that look so sharp 100 years later. So far, the only answers seem to be "I don't care if it may be trimmed, as long as there's another person waiting to pay me big bucks for it." Well, to me, that is a pyramid scheme.

I guess you are suggesting that since I don't collect higher than SGC 80 cards then I shouldn't be concerned about the interests of those that do. That is a fair point, but this forum is about collecting pre-war baseball cards, and I am interested in the mindset of those dropping $10,000 on cards that I would never buy raw because one grading company, on one day back in 1994 said a card is the mintiest. Well, why do we hold that opinion up as the end-all be-all of opinions on a card of such value?

[Paul, if the Johnson above is "presumptively trimmed" why will it sell for 11K? Perhaps it is just presumptively trimmed in your home.]

By the way, the card sold for $8,983 -- $2,000 under that estimate. Is it unreasonable to suspect it was because a number of people with the ability to pay more dropped out over concerns about this particular Johnson card?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Actually, the card sold for about 11K with the juice. My 11K statement was not an estimate but the price with the juice at the time I wrote that post.

Paul, the "mindset" of people who collect high grade T206s (and other prewar cards at high grade) is as follows: WHY BUY IN SGC 50 WHEN YOU CAN AFFORD TO BUY IN SGC 92? Hope that cleared things up.

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Posted By: T206Collector

Jeff,

You said that you have found the grades of the old PSA slabs to be "a lot more uneven than the later ones." Do you mean that there is some grade variation between early PSA 8 T206 cards and more recently graded PSA 8 T206 cards? If so, isn't that a reason not to merely collect the highest grade you can afford?

You mentioned you have a "a couple thousand pre-war and 50s cards in PSA 8 and 9." Do you have any T206 cards in PSA 8 or 9? Have you seen variation between the grades?

Thanks for your help in clearing this up for me.

Paul

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Paul,

I do think that the old PSA grades are inconsistent - especially when compared to the newer graded cards. I have seen some older PSA 7s and 8s that I do not believe are up to snuff as of today. As for me, I am very careful when buying PSA cards with the old flips. Some cards are ok, some are not. As for the rest of the PSA graded cards - which make up the great majority of the PSA cards out there - I buy the highest grades I can afford. That pretty much sums up the way I handle any other purchase in my life: I buy what I can afford.

I do own a number of high grade T206 cards, none of them are the 'old grades.' I think they are pretty consistent. Some 7s are not as consistent but anything higher, at least for me, are consistent.

Jeff

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Posted By: T206Collector

I think SGC has the same issue with their old flips. I have a few and have read about SGC purchasing those back to bring them up to their current standard. It always makes me realize that card grading is fluid and changes with the times. Consistent with the "2038 thread," I really do wonder sometimes what the standard will be when I retire from card collecting and pass the cards along to my children or sell them through Google Auctions (which will have bought eBay in 2013).