Question about Babe Ruth underwear box

[HBroll]

Hi,
I have a question about Babe Ruth's 1920's/30's underwear box. I have always seen them with green on the flaps of the box (photo 1) but recently I saw one with the flaps of the box white (photo 2, box top flattened out). Is the box top with white flaps legit or a fantasy piece? Thanks for your help.
Howard

[canjond]

I'm pretty sure it's legit - just a different style.

[base_ball]

I vaguely recall seeing one version like this...here's a question: Is the image printed directly onto the cardboard box? Or is it a piece of paper pasted onto the box?

[HBroll]

Hi Joseph,
The image is a piece of thick paper pasted onto the box. I know the other type is printed directly onto the box so this one makes me wonder a little bit.
Howard

[canjond]

If it's pasted onto the box, then I would take back what I said and lean towards it being a fake piece. I could have sworn I've seen the green/white before, but it sounds too much like a fantasy piece now.

[bigtrain]

I own a similar box. Mine says "SIZE - LG" on the flap. I bought it assuming it was not vintage but on closer examination I am not sure. The glue used on the label has yellowed as is visible on the top of your picture. The box certainly looks old from the inside as well. It is certainly possible that someone came across a bunch of old clothing boxes and had newer labels made and pasted onto them. It is also possible that the full color boxes were too expensive and the company decided to cut costs. If not vintage, it is a pretty good fake.

[HBroll]

I was leaning toward it being a fake too but now I am not so sure.

I agree with you Tom. The box top I have looks vintage as well. The box is definitely period and the label looks old with the yellowing of glue you stated. It is missing "The Champion Nine" line at the bottom of the box which is odd too. It is very possible that the full color boxes were too expensive and the company cut costs and these box tops were the result.

Here is the actual Ruth box top I bought on eBay last week. The other photo I posted was my file photo. On this photo you can see the yellowing of the glue too. Like you said, if they are not real, they are a really good fake.

[IronHorse2130]

I seem to recall a white version being sold my a major auction house but I can't remember which one. If I come across the catalog I will post here again.

[bigtrain]

I also seem to recall seeing two different sizes of boxes, perhaps one holding adult sizes and another for children?

[baseball tourist]

Add another white boxed version to the pile. This has no size stamping but the box has a similar look with perforations for folding, aged glue etc. It has an applied label.

[HBroll]

I also think there are 2 box sizes too. The 14" Ruth underwear mini-bat was supposedly found inside the larger box along with the underwear.

I believe Fusco auctioned a green/white version in one of their summer auctions. I am not sure what it sold for.

Not only is the green/white box missing "The Champion Nine" line at the bottom of the box, there is no square line surrounding the entire image. Very interesting.

[ctownboy]

Personally, I think all the Babe Ruth Underwear boxes with the white edges are fakes/reproductions. The graphics aren't as clear and crisp and just don't look right compared to the original boxes with the green edges.

Also, Antique Helper in Indianapolis sold one of these boxes in 2007 for $110 dollars. In that same auction was a number of fake items, i.e. Kaywoodie Babe Ruth sign, whiskey advertisement sign with Honus Wagner on it plus a few others.

If I remember correctly, all of these items came from the same consigner. Once I found that out, I refused to bid on the underwear box because if two of the items were fake, it was a good bet the underwear box was also.

David

[mjkm90]

I also believe they are reproductions. There is too much variation in the content of this lid in contrast to the originals, completely different construction, and the colors are off. It just looks off to me.

[ctownboy]

Yes, from what I have seen, the original box tops with the green sides have writing on the sides wheras the box tops with white sides are plain. Why? Did the company making the underwear decide it was more cost efficient for them to just have Ruth's face on the top and NOTHING on the sides of the lid?

David

[HBroll]

The more I looked at the box top, the more I am starting to think it might be a reproduction. I am 60% sure its a fake and 40% sure it might be real. Since the seller has a 7 day money back guarantee, I am sending it back for a refund.

I want to thank everybody who weighed in on this subject. Like one of the posters said, "If its not real, its a pretty good fake". Thanks again for your help.

Howard

[ctownboy]

I hope my opinions didn't influence you too much because I am CERTAINLY not an expert in printing or advertising matters and don't have nearly as much experience as a lot of people on this board, as far as fake/reproduction/fantasy items go. I just don't want you or someone else to possibly spend your money on a fake item. On the other hand, if this piece IS real, I don't want you to look back and kick yourself for returning it.

My main points are that 1) the Babe Ruth graphics on the top of the white sided boxes are not as sharp as on the green sided boxes. 2) the green sided boxes have advertising info on them and the white sided boxes don't. 3) A white sided box sold at an auction I went to and there were obviously fake sports related advertising items sold at the same auction and most likely consigned by the same person.

So, as with baseball cards, original versus fake, I have learned on these boards that picture clarity is one way to tell reproductions from real cards and teh clarity of the graphics on the white sided boxes don't look as goodas on the green sided boxes.

Good luck either way with the box,

David

[HBroll]

Hi David,

You are correct on all of your points. Its a different style on front, the photo is not as clear, it is pasted on rather than printed on the box, no advertisement/color on the flaps. There are just too many discrepancies between the two types of boxes for me.

What I also found when I was checking the Internet was all the green/white boxes had the top of the box only (flattened out) but no bottom. Not one had the bottom of the box. Whereas most, if not all, of the green type I found came with the bottom of the box too. I thought that was a little odd. Why are there no bottom of the boxes for the green/white versions? Maybe some of the other posters who have the green/white version can chime in if they have the bottom of the box.

There is a green type in the Collect.com auction right now (lot #554). The box is complete as are most of the other green types I found. That was just another nail in the coffin for me. When there are so many differences between the two types usually means trouble. Now it could still be the real deal because I am still 60/40 with it being a reproduction but I rather be safe than sorry. Thanks for your input. Take care.

Howard

[fkw]

Here is the one I had, if its a fake its the most convincing fake of anything IVe ever seen!!!!, with mildew, and very old glue, etc.
and the image is Not Copied BTW, so get past that....

Why would the guy who faked these COMPLETELY redraw the whole design??? Everything about the design is different between the green and white side boxes, the placement of the "Babe Ruth" the "9", the background of the Ruth image, the removal of "The Champion Nine", the removal of the line around the edge, etc. Makes no sense to redraw the whole thing when you could just copy it from the original.

Mine wouldnt fit on the scanner so I dont have the size info, but there was size printing in blue ink on the white edge too.

Im saying its REAL, and just a later version. It would be cheaper to just slap these stickers on a cheap white box, than to print the whole thing up on the box itself, sides and all.
I owned mine for at least 10 years before I sold it a couple years back.

[ctownboy]

FKW,

Go to eBay and look under completed auctions for "Babe Ruth underwear". The very bottom listing on the page is for a FAKE tin sign made in 1993. The sign is said to be authorized by the family as a REPRODUCTION.

If you will see, the graphics ARE different on the fake sign and match the graphics on the white sided underwear box. The nine around Ruth is thinner on the fake sign and the fake sign does NOT have "The Champion Nine" at the bottom JUST LIKE the white sided underwear box.

I am NOT an expert in graphic design BUT I think, with a little practice, I could take a fake sign to Kinkos and make a COPY of the front and THEN make copies of that picture and past them on old boxes.

In short, I think;

1) the white sided underwear boxes are fake

2) scam artists will do ANYTHING to make a buck even if it means going to great links to steal money from people. Links which are far harder and take much more time than actually getting a job and going to work.

David

[ctownboy]

FKW,

Oh yeah, I forgot to add. You said you sold your white sided underwear box a couple of years ago and that you had owned it for 10 years? Well, that would still mean the fake sign was made five years before you bought your underwear box.

Now, if you had owned your white sided underwear box for 25 years and the fake sign came out in 1993, then I could see there is a chance the white sided underwear boxes are real.

David

[fkw]

Good point on the repo sign... never seen one of them (Im going to look it up to see).
But what came first, the sign or the white sided boxes??
Usually those signs are copied from original pieces, ie the green sided box.

someone still had to redraw the whole thing, and why would a modern faker spend the time doing so when they could quickly rescreen the original.

If someone has a white sided box with the underwear still inside that would be good proof IMO.

Good Mystery

[bigtrain]

Okay, so its possible someone made a label from a copy of the sign, acquired a stash of vintage, yellowed, aged, mildewed clothing boxes and artificially aged the glue marks etc. Doesn't that raise another question? Why would the sign company completely redesign the image instead of making a copy of the original? Isn't it possible that the sign was made from the later version of the box and not vice versa?

[bigtrain]

Great minds think alike Frank. You beat me by a minute.

[fkw]

Looked at the sign, its the same design exactly.

http://cgi.ebay.com/BABE-RUTH-ALL-AM...-/130453656061

The "whites of the eyes" on the box are more white, and some parts of the image of the hair seems crisper/clearer.

Maybe someone can find proof these boxes existed before 1993.

Maybe an ad in Baseball Hobby News, SCD, or The Traders Speak, or a picture in an early auction catalog maybe???

Better would be to find the underwear inside the box.

*Negative about these white sided boxes is they are too common, and always seem to be flat, with no bottom. Anyone seen a complete white sided box?
Also the 18 year old repo sign seems scarcer than the box too.

Lets solve this mystery

[HBroll]

The photo of the tin repro sign and the green/white box top are not exactly the same. The tin sign HAS the square line surrounding Ruth's image (like the all green box top) but the green/white box top has no square line surrounding Ruth's image. So what we have are 3 different designs.

[ctownboy]

Hbroll,

I still think the green/white boxes are fake.

As far as the differences between teh fake sign and the real box, I think the company making the sign got permission to use Ruth's image and name but either didn't get permission to use hte EXACT same graphics as on teh box or the person making the graphics decided to change things around a little. Either so that people could recognize the original 1930's design fom the 1990's design OR just as an exercise to see if theycould do it or to put their own personal stamp on the piece.

I know there was a person who made fake gold coins that passed for real (even the GOOD grading companies were grading them as authentic) UNTIL someone noticed a certain design or mark on the fakes. Come to find out, the forger copied EVERYTHING the original coins had BUT they made one little extra mark in a certain place and did so to put their own personal stamp on the piece.

I haven't held the fake sign in my hand but I would guess it is larger than the green/white box lid. If so, then the white line around the edge of the fake sign would be at the edge of the graphics on the green/white box lid. In short, the box lid was too narrow to be able to incorporate the white line. and still keep the same diminsions of everything else.

David

[ctownboy]

I guess what I am trying to say is this; I think the green/white box lids are fakes and that the people who made them either didn't know the real boxes had green sides and some extra writing (advertising) on them OR they were just plain lazy and took the design from the fake sign and used it to make their fake box lids.

Either way, if I had the money and wanted a Babe Ruth underwear box, I would hold out for a green sided one and pass on ALL of the white sided boxes.

David

[glchen]

Apologies if this is a complete newbie answer, but can you shine blacklight on the Ruth white box to determine the rough age of the paper? (This would be the Ruth pasted on the box and not the box.) I thought this is what some people do for pre-war cards to determine if the paper stock is of the right era.

[HBroll]

David,
I agree in what you are saying. I think the green/white box tops are reproductions too. The reason why I am saying all 3 (green/white, all green & tin sign) are a different design is because one poster said "Isn't it possible that the sign was made from the later version of the box and not vice versa?" If that was true then why did they "add" the square line around Ruth's image when it was not on the original green/white design?

[canjond]

Let me start off by saying that I, too, agree the white boxes are probably fake. After seeing it next to the sign especially, the graphics on the paper afixed to the white box looks washed out to me, and not as crisp as the sign (like it's been scanned). So, with that being said, let me add more to this mystery. While not my box, I did find this while searching the net. Note that it does NOT have "The Champion Nine" language. This box sold in a Lelands auction...

[canjond]

Also - note this is the "green" style box with "The Champion Nine" language.

[thekingofclout]

Here's a better image Jon...

babeandboysUNDERWEAR.jpg

[canjond]

Thanks Jimmy. I wonder if those are Boston Garters?

[HBroll]

Nice work Jon finding that Lelands box with no "The Champion Nine" language. Now we know where they got the image to make the tin sign. Those two match perfectly, square line and all.

[canjond]

Makes sense to me.

[fkw]

Jon may have found the answer with that image of the "type 2" green side box.
It also kills the theory of the "authentic boxes will ONLY have advertising on the side" deal though.

I finally Googled images, and there are actually 3 different types of boxes (not including the white side one)

This one is different, its a thin bottom loop "9" with "The Champion Nine" line, kind of a cross between the other 2 green sides.

I would need to see a complete white side box with underwear now to be convinced they are NOT fake.

I wish I had mine to look closer at now. When I did have it, it wasnt obvious it was a fake.

But there still may be 4 types???

That glue, wear, and mildew work is very convincing, especially for the (precomputer?) era these (fakes?) may have been designed in.

PS WARNING: If you dont like Porn, dont google images with the search words..... Babe Ruth Underwear

[WWGjohn]

There is another of the white sided box tops on Ebay. This one has SIZE SM on one of the sides. I also have a white sided box top and have wondered whether it is authentic or not. The fact that all of these tops are molded makes me think that these are fakes.

John

[IronHorse2130]

A bit off topic but did anyone else notice that Gehrig's arms are three times the size of anyone else's in the above photo(s)? That man was a beast!