Another T206 Wagner "? AUTHTCT"

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Pilot172000

You are now comparing apples and oranges. Making fake bills is a Federal Felony and punishable by law. I am obligated to the FDIC to confiscate them. Making fake cards is not a felony and no matter how unethical, there is no obligation to confiscate or call the police.

You're either just not getting it or you're trying to deflect the issue. We're not talking about the production of counterfeit bills or cards. We're talking about detecting such.

The point I was going to make is, how can you detect counterfeit bills, but PSA can't detect counterfeit cards?

Edited to add: And one last question and I think I will have proven my point. Would you ever deem a bill as "questionable authenticity" or would you categorically say it's either real or it's not?

[Pilot172000]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

You're either just not getting it or you're trying to deflect the issue. We're not talking about the production of counterfeit bills or cards. We're talking about detecting such.

The point I was going to make is, how can you detect counterfeit bills, but PSA can't detect counterfeit cards?

To be perfectly honest, you don't get it....

PSA is not in the business of detecting fakes. They are in the business of authenticating real ones. So far you have called me wrong, mocked my profession and accused me of "not getting it" Try to be a little more civil. I am not calling you wrong, I am telling you I disagree with you and I understand why PSA is doing it that way.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Pilot172000

To be perfectly honest, you don't get it....

PSA is not in the business of detecting fakes. They are in the business of authenticating real ones. So far you have called me wrong, mocked my profession and accused me of "not getting it" Try to be a little more civil. I am not calling you wrong, I am telling you I disagree with you and I understand why PSA is doing it that way.

Yes, they are in the business of detecting fakes. If they can't detect fakes, then how can they grade a real card? That's like saying you're not in the business of detecting fake currency. Yes, that is part of what you do. PSA is an authentication company. Part of authenticating is determining which are fakes, which are not.

And yes, you were wrong. You inferred that PSA didn't make any money be determining a card as questionable authenticity. They still charge to grade the card whether it is deemed to be real or not.

I've been civil with you. Now, you're just being ridiculous.

[begsu1013]

i cant even tell who's on first anymore...

(reminds me of the snl skit w/ will ferrell playing harry carray and comparing nickels to hotdogs, depending on the strength of the yen)




.

[Pilot172000]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Yes, they are in the business of detecting fakes. If they can't detect fakes, then how can they grade a real card? That's like saying you're not in the business of detecting fake currency. Yes, that is part of what you do. PSA is an authentication company. Part of authenticating is determining which are fakes, which are not.

And yes, you were wrong. You inferred that PSA didn't make any money be determining a card as questionable authenticity. They still charge to grade the card whether it is deemed to be real or not.

I've been civil with you. Now, you're just being ridiculous.

You are ridiculous to believe that any corporation or company is going to take on added liability to establish something as an outright fake when they don't have to. You are also wrong to assume that people pay money to PSA to tell them if a card is fake. They pay them to tell them that if its real and if its not in the opinion of PSA, they tell them that they won't grade it because they question its authenticity. You don't like the fact that PSA doesn't state in black and white that "Its a fake and you are stupid for sending it to us"

You aren't being civil don't kid yourself. We are talking about something so arbitrary as the wording on a sticker that PSA attaches to a fake card. The whole world is filled with "they oughta's". Our opinions of their policy and business model has no effect on their bottom line. I would wager that some attorney somewhere told them to word it exactly that way as to not take on unneeded liability.

[Pilot172000]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

i cant even tell who's on first anymore...

(reminds me of the snl skit w/ will ferrell playing harry carray and comparing nickels to hotdogs, depending on the strength of the yen)




.

+1

[Pat R]

From PSA website

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Pat R

From PSA website

thats referring to pins and coins.

[Pilot172000]

Originally Posted by Pat R

From PSA website

Microphone Drop...JK

[Pilot172000]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

thats referring to pins and coins.

I don't think it is. Thats page five of a thirteen page document with the first five pages being about the card grades and qualifiers.

[ullmandds]

So why doesn't PSA say on the flip...counterfeit?

[ullmandds]

i'll tell you why...because it would cause them to lose a little money...that's why.

[Pilot172000]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

i'll tell you why...because it would cause them to lose a little money...that's why.

You are correct.

[begsu1013]

and in more than just the way you intended, ullman

it would cause them to lose money on the liability side as well, which was the basis of our original argument.

everyone's a winner.

[Pilot172000]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

and in more than just the way you intended, ullman

it would cause them to lose money on the liability side as well, which was the basis of our original argument.

everyone's a winner.

Chicken dinner.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Peter, you are wasting your time. PSA can't tell the difference between Karl Malden and Karl Malone, so how could we possibly expect them to tell the difference between a fake Broad Leaf Wagner and a real one?

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=218336

Yet people still continue to defend them

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

and in more than just the way you intended, ullman

it would cause them to lose money on the liability side as well, which was the basis of our original argument.

everyone's a winner.

not true...PSA is being deceptive to its customers who buy PSA cards on the secondary market...by saying Questionable Authenticity on their flips...when the reality is if you refer to their guidelines to decipher the actual meaning of this as "fake!"

So ultimately if everyone had the same information...it wouldn't matter...but this is not the case.

Whatever...it's done for me.

[begsu1013]

david,

you may be the king of bringing in facts that have nothing to do w the original thread and twisting the heck outta it until the original convo isnt even recognizable anymore...so, now we are on psa/dna, huh?

i will take 2 pretzels, please.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

i'll tell you why...because it would cause them to lose a little money...that's why.

+1 god forbid they loose a few here and there.

[begsu1013]

"ok, so 3 x 3 does equal 9 but everyone knows 2 + 2 is 4, correct?"

[Pilot172000]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Peter, you are wasting your time. PSA can't tell the difference between Karl Malden and Karl Malone, so how could we possibly expect them to tell the difference between a fake Broad Leaf Wagner and a real one?

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=218336

Yet people still continue to defend them

I personally trust PSA with the authentication and grading of my stuff. I feel the same way about SGC and Beckett. I know that these companies will refund my money if their authenticated card is proven to be a fake. We have seen high profile cases of such. I wasn't defending them for those reasons. I was stating why they do the fake cards the way they do them. There has never been any question as to the authenticity of the card. We all knew it was crap and just disagreed with how PSA handled it being crap.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

david,

you may be the king of bringing in facts that have nothing to do w the original thread and twisting the heck outta it until the original convo isnt even recognizable anymore...so, now we are on psa/dna, huh?

i will take 2 pretzels, please.

Comprehension isn't your thing, is it Bob?

PSA and PSA/DNA are still the same company basically. I guess I could have used a card as an example. Would that make you feel better?

[begsu1013]

key words in your statement "and", "basically".

seems i might be a lil more keen to what comprehension means than thou.

commence to twisting...

[glynparson]

From what I have been told the wording is at advice from their council. I know there are things I do that I THIK ARE DUMB BUT I DO THEM BECAUSE MY LAWYER HAS ADVISED ME TO DO IT THAT WAY. Sorry bumped caps lock too lazy to retype. Do you do nothing or have your patients do something you think is dumb at advice of your lawyers. Thats all this is, plenty to go after PSA for but when you go after them about every little thing you begin to sound petty and get tuned out on the big stuff.

[steve B]

PSA could handle fake cards more clearly.

To say that no company would take on the liability of being wrong about a fake is silly, since that's exactly what expertizers - the equivalent of grading companies for stamps - do regularly.

If I send in a stamp I've identified as an rare expensive one, and I'm wrong, they send it back with a certificate describing it as what it actually is.

Their pricing is a minimum, or a percentage of the catalog value. If I think it's one worth say 100 thousand, and it's not, they only charge the minimum or the price for what it is.

If I send in an outright fake whether it was made by a famous forger, or by me just before sending it in, it comes back with a cert saying it's a fake. I think in the case of one done by someone famous like Sperati or Fournier, they state that as well.

Altered stamps are described as altered, usually with the alteration described, so you get an indication if the alteration is a repair, which in some cases is ok but worth a lot less, or an alteration that's likely fraudulent. (Adding some paper to replace a missing piece is sort of ok, drawing in or removing part of the design is NOT. )

In a few really complex situations the cert will say "we decline to render an opinion" Which can mean a lot of things. Anywhere from the thing is too beat up or heavily cancelled to properly identify it, to a stamp that may be real, but is extremely unusual in some way, enough that more than one expert can't be sure, or that the experts disagree.


And they can and do sometimes figure out later that something they thought was good isn't. And with enough evidence they'll recertify whatever it is as fake or as something else.

PSA could do that easily. Either slab the reprints as reprints and give them a number grade, or slab as fake if it's not a commercially produced reprint.


Steve B

[Pilot172000]

Originally Posted by steve B

PSA could handle fake cards more clearly.

To say that no company would take on the liability of being wrong about a fake is silly, since that's exactly what expertizers - the equivalent of grading companies for stamps - do regularly.

If I send in a stamp I've identified as an rare expensive one, and I'm wrong, they send it back with a certificate describing it as what it actually is.

Their pricing is a minimum, or a percentage of the catalog value. If I think it's one worth say 100 thousand, and it's not, they only charge the minimum or the price for what it is.

If I send in an outright fake whether it was made by a famous forger, or by me just before sending it in, it comes back with a cert saying it's a fake. I think in the case of one done by someone famous like Sperati or Fournier, they state that as well.

Altered stamps are described as altered, usually with the alteration described, so you get an indication if the alteration is a repair, which in some cases is ok but worth a lot less, or an alteration that's likely fraudulent. (Adding some paper to replace a missing piece is sort of ok, drawing in or removing part of the design is NOT. )

In a few really complex situations the cert will say "we decline to render an opinion" Which can mean a lot of things. Anywhere from the thing is too beat up or heavily cancelled to properly identify it, to a stamp that may be real, but is extremely unusual in some way, enough that more than one expert can't be sure, or that the experts disagree.


And they can and do sometimes figure out later that something they thought was good isn't. And with enough evidence they'll recertify whatever it is as fake or as something else.

PSA could do that easily. Either slab the reprints as reprints and give them a number grade, or slab as fake if it's not a commercially produced reprint.


Steve B

I do agree that PSA could tweak their system. Slabbing them as reprints would be interesting yet risky just like rendering something completely fake. Could you imagine the hoards of Reprints getting sent in to PSA for that little red tag at the top of the holder?

[JTysver]

Actually, that is mail fraud and a Federal Offense.
The seller ought to be turned in to the Postal Inspector. I would think they would be more than interested in this especially since the dude is using the US Mail to sell fraudulent materials.
How is it Fraud? He stated it just came back from PSA. That is a lie.

[Pilot172000]

Which part is mail fraud? How do you know it didn't come back from PSA? In most cases its not against the law to lie. Is he or she selling something he presumes to be Authentic? You have to show intent. Its also under $100 which leads me to believe that the FBI is gonna pass since it would be at best a misdemeanor. This guy should be outed and shamed back into the dark hole that came from. This board does a great job of outing crap like this.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by JTysver

Actually, that is mail fraud and a Federal Offense.
The seller ought to be turned in to the Postal Inspector. I would think they would be more than interested in this especially since the dude is using the US Mail to sell fraudulent materials.
How is it Fraud? He stated it just came back from PSA. That is a lie.

It did just come back from PSA. Read Post #12. While I think it's morally wrong, it's not legally wrong. Ebay won't do anything about it because, technically, he's selling it for what it is as described on the flip - a Broad Leaf Wagner with Questionable Authenticity.

It's a very unfortunate situation.

[GasHouseGang]

It seems like it would be worth sending in fakes to PSA when they are running one of their "specials" on grading. If I can spend around $5 to get a worthless reprint graded, and then show it clearly with the PSA label, and still get around $80 or so for it, I'd be making more money than selling real cards. Plus, I don't even have to lie about it. After all, he's clearly showing the PSA certification.

[Pilot172000]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

It did just come back from PSA. Read Post #12. While I think it's morally wrong, it's not legally wrong. Ebay won't do anything about it because, technically, he's selling it for what it is as described on the flip - a Broad Leaf Wagner with Questionable Authenticity.

It's a very unfortunate situation.

You are absolutely right and I remember hitting the brakes and looking at it while going through Ebay. Its shows it as ended and around $80+, did somebody bite on it or did they pull it?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Pilot172000

Its shows it as ended and around $80+, did somebody bite on it or did they pull it?

No, they didn't pull it. He ran it as a 5 day auction and it ran it's course.

[Pilot172000]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

No, they didn't pull it. He ran it as a 5 day auction and it ran it's course.

David I agree with you that its a crap sale. Before I joined this board and learned more about the backs and front combos (thanks Sean and Ted) I would have considered crap like that.

[MetsBaseball1973]

Originally Posted by Pat R

From PSA website

Mic drop, indeed. Case closed. Pretty sad grown men took time from their days to argue over such trivial crap. The internet is a cesspool.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by MetsBaseball1973

The internet is a cesspool.

I concur.

[begsu1013]

kinda like a jacuzi.

it's all fine and dandy when there's bubbles...

but once those jets stop working, people realize it's just warm community bathwater....

[Leon]

All of this, really? It's not against the law to lie (commit fraud)?

I believe PSA should use better wording on their flips for counterfeit cards. Maybe something like "counterfeit". There is no question mark needed. If they can't tell it's counterfeit then they shouldn't be charging for their services. Or they should send it back at no cost and say they don't know what they are doing and have no clue but leave their flip out of the equation. I would imagine countless people have gotten screwed by their "?"..
I have always disliked their ambiguous wording on fake card flips. That being said, they are a great marketing company. They do a good job in grading, overall, too...imo.

Originally Posted by Pilot172000

Which part is mail fraud? How do you know it didn't come back from PSA? In most cases its not against the law to lie. Is he or she selling something he presumes to be Authentic? You have to show intent. Its also under $100 which leads me to believe that the FBI is gonna pass since it would be at best a misdemeanor. This guy should be outed and shamed back into the dark hole that came from. This board does a great job of outing crap like this.

[sbfinley]

FWIW, BGS would also return this as "questionable authenticity". The reason being, a card printed in someone's basement is distinctly different than a mass produced reprint of known origins. Equally worthless, but the nonetheless different. Questionable flip or not, some idiot would have spent 100x it's true value. Assigning any blame to PSA is absurd, but par for the course.

[Pilot172000]

Originally Posted by Leon

All of this, really? It's not against the law to lie (commit fraud)?

I believe PSA should use better wording on their flips for counterfeit cards. Maybe something like "counterfeit". There is no question mark needed. If they can't tell it's counterfeit then they shouldn't be charging for their services. Or they should send it back at no cost and say they don't know what they are doing and have no clue but leave their flip out of the equation. I would imagine countless people have gotten screwed by their "?"..
I have always disliked their ambiguous wording on fake card flips. That being said, they are a great marketing company. They do a good job in grading, overall, too...imo.

You completely took what I said out of context. I didn't say "It's not against the law to lie" "I said in Most cases its not against the law to lie" BIG DARN DIFFERENCE. You can lie to your wife, you can lie to pretty much anyone as long as its not to a Federal agent, to misrepresent for profit (Fraud), or to cover for a criminal act. I have looked this listing over a dozen times and he didn't lie about anything. Vague? Absolutely, but no lying.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Leon

I believe PSA should use better wording on their flips for counterfeit cards. Maybe something like "counterfeit". There is no question mark needed. If they can't tell it's counterfeit then they shouldn't be charging for their services. Or they should send it back at no cost and say they don't know what they are doing and have no clue but leave their flip out of the equation.

You and I share the same opinion, Leon, so welcome to the cesspool.

And, if M. Browne wants to continue to participate in this thread, he really needs to have his full name in his post, but for now I'll assume the 'M' stands for Meathead.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

You and I share the same opinion, Leon, so welcome to the cesspool.

And, if M. Browne wants to continue to participate in this thread, he really needs to have his full name in his post, but for now I'll assume the 'M' stands for Meathead.

yes...this is the whole point here...PSA could be doing a better job with their verbiage to avoid deception...that's all.

The fact that they hide behind legal mumbo jumbo certainly doesn't make me like them any more.

[begsu1013]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

The fact that they hide behind legal mumbo jumbo certainly doesn't make me like them any more.

so youre saying youre not a fan of just about any and every publicly traded company ever and the same goes for just about any document that someone else has handed you to sign. got it.

heres a psa: psa should be the least of your worries. and dont get on that rollercoaster! and dont you dare look at the back of a (insert favorite mlb team here) ticket!

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

so youre saying youre not a fan of just about any and every publicly traded company ever and the same goes for just about any document that someone else has handed you to sign. got it.

No...but I will say I am not a fan of legal, double speak mumbo jumbo written with the intent to deceive and confuse.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

so youre saying youre not a fan of just about any and every publicly traded company ever and the same goes for just about any document that someone else has handed you to sign. got it.

heres a psa: psa should be the least of your worries. and dont get on that rollercoaster!

And I'm not sure why you're even here...do you collect pre WW II cards???

[begsu1013]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

And I'm not sure why you're even here...do you collect pre WW II cards???

really?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

And I'm not sure why you're even here...do you collect pre WW II cards???

C'mon now, can't we all just get along?
This thread is about a pre-war card but is not entirely a pre-war conversation. If this side were very strictly kept to only pre-war cards themselves it would be a less fun place. Topics surrounding pre war seem fair game as well as a few off topics here and there (in moderation). I think summing it up (but still open for debate)-

Many (and myself) think there could be better wording on the ?AUT flips.
Many think it's fine the way it is.
Most think lawyers have something to do with this issue.


.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

really?

sorrybob...that was uncalled for...I'm going to take a time out now!

[Pat R]

Fixed it

[vintagetoppsguy]

Thanks, Pat!

I would be fine if they just put N4 on the flip. At least that way if a potential buyer didn't know what that meant, they could go to PSA's website and at least see it's a counterfeit.

"N-4 Questionable Authenticity - This is the term used when a card is counterfeit"

[begsu1013]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

sorrybob...that was uncalled for...I'm going to take a time out now!

we're cool, pete!

just a message board and nothing should be taken too seriously.

time in.