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mr. mosesfor this stream of consciousness but I just spent nearly two hours writing this response - got logged off - and lost the whole thing. Yeshhhhhhhhh. Oh well as it's a labor of love I will make this final attempt. I will not apologize for the construction, presentation, spelling (sorry Barry if you is reading this), or lack of coherent or cogent thought and because I am old, retired, and at peace with myself; I will not be embarrassed either. It is what it be.
I collect 19th century women baseball cards and photos and have since 1994/5. I offer the following set and price observations as food for thought.
There are two types of cabinet size and larger mounted photographs depicting women base ball players. Those with advertising and those without. The ones without any brand advertising are typically vanity photos - those in which the team might go to a studio to capture a particular moment in time. They are infrequently encountered and most often part of a family's history. When I was actively seeking them outside of the hobby in the mid-1990's, I managed to accumulate 10/11 examples. They featured women in uniform with manager and equipment in the same manner as those of men's teams of the period. They could be found in the 75.00 to 250.00 range. Their value is a reflection of the view of them as novelty/generic representations much in the same manner I think that women playing a man's game was viewed. There is also little in terms of historical record that supports higher prices apart from the scarcity demand issues. The advertising ones I own and have seen are all Allen and Ginter brands, feature women in uniform in a studio setting with and without props and most with a painted backdrop. There are mostly found in "playing" poses. There are three sizes. The smallest is typical cabinet photo size (4 1/4 x 6 1/2) and the largest are 9 sumptin by 12 sumptin (don't have them at hand). They feature titles for "Black Stocking Nine" and "Polka Dot Nine" (population far more scarce than the former-perhaps 10 to 1). The cabinet sized examples trade in the 600.00 and up range, the medium size 800.00 and up, and the largest examples are so infrequently traded that it comes down to the buyer and seller thing. I was offered a couple by an historical paper dealer in 1996 or so for 1300.00 each. One sold in Allentown circa 1996 as well for 1000.00, at least one was sold in the Sotheby's "Wagner" auction in 1998(?) for a slightly higher hammer (with buyer's PENALTY as I like to call it), and couple were in REA auction last April (YOU can look it up:-)). I recently sold some in excess of 1000.00. There are at least 10 unique images that I know of and would guess that there are more although the paucity of available information and examples mask the population and members of the set.
(Wow a new paragraph:-) I'm putting myself to sleep just writing this......
There are small images as well. Two different real photo insert sets in sepia playing poses and one insepia colors that is NOT a real photo but an image copied from a real photo (cheaper to produce). Also studio poses. All Allen and Ginter products - Virginia Brights - Sub Rosa. Some with number and pose variations as well as different advertising reverses. Each set has nine examples if I remember correctly but I don't have them in front of me, nor do I have my WTI. I was actively buying them in the mid-1990's in singles and lots in the 25.00 to 45.00 range. I began selling them a few years ago when they started to go for 150.00 and up. Slabbed after the national a couple of years ago I remember getting 225.00 or so for few in VG/X. I think interest has waned a bit except for the type collector and surmise some spotty eBay sales will bear me out that 125.00 to 200.00 is more today's price. Other than comic postcards that sell in the 5.00 to 20.00 range, and less generic named team/player advertising pieces of the same size (like Star baseball club and a couple of others whose names escape me) that sell in the 75.00 to 125.00 range, we are left with my favorite inserts. Resplendent in bright chromolithographic imagery; there are three sets with women BB players: N360 - set of nine different, N557 "National Sports" one card "America" (what a coinkidink), and N285 "Morning Glory Maidens" also with a single card. Additionallly there is an entry in Forbes and Mitchell's American Tobacco Cards attributed to Non-sport hobby legend and cataloger(sp?) Chris Benjamin (done a LOT in past for the GROWTH of the hobby) of a series designated N694 Risido Cigars. It states unknown size-number in series-subjects. I have never seen one. These litho cards mentioned above typically sell in the 150.00 to 350.00 range although prices on collectibles such as this are rarely static and subject to gusts of wind or moments of desolation.
NOW COMES THE GOOD PART:
First I believe that the women depicted were actually Ginter's "cigarette making girls". These were actual women who rolled their cigarettes before he utilized a machine to perform the function. They produced a large set of small photo insert cards featuring these un-named women over a couple of years. They produced some spectacular cabinet and larger mounted photos of them as well. They are some of my favorite advertising pieces. They must have been popular as "sex sells". It is not much of a stretch to think that they might exploit this and capitalize on interest in the increasingly popular national game of baseball by fielding or at least advertising a team with women. Whether they fielded an actual team or not I don't know. I remember Don Flanagan telling me once that he had seen a contract for the Black Stocking Nine. I have no reason not to believe him. It is curious that there doesn't appear to be a name or at least initials to identify the team on the uniforms. No matter.
Second relates to these women and what I believe to be their appearance on the DUKE N154 "Presidential Baseball Club" series. In this series presidents and candidates are depicted with their heads superimposed on uniformed player bodies. I have examined most all of the smaller Ginter inserts and many of the Duke heads. It is clear that there are no EXACT matches however the porcine bodies, nearly exact studio poses and painted backgrounds, and same uniforms suggest that it's the SAME women under dem heads and not men. It was common in those days for printers and manufacturers of trade cards to sell the same image to more than one company. Photographers did the same thing. Remember there was no EXACT duplication near as I can figure so a similar image could still be thought of as unique. The best example I can offer is from a Goodwin copyrighted baseball player cabinet my friend and I sold in REA a few years ago with P.H.Mayo Brothers advertising at the top (of note too is that photo appeared with a date 4 or more years PRIOR to any known Mayo insert). Mayo and Goodwin were clearly different companies.
Done for now. I know I have probably hurt myself in exploring the price and perhaps availability issues as candidly as I have. This is my hobby. Knowledge is King. I share for the benefit of all and to repay dem what has come before me and shared what they knew. Most knowledge is a product of someone else's labor. Besides....I have most of this stuff already "-). Please add what you can.
BUT
I am always buying any of the above...
My mantra
I wanted to
so I did
because I can
Edited to add the following: Dixie was another of the Ginter brands in the N48 Girl Baseball Players series.
According to book American Tobacco cards checklist found on page 8 World Tobacco Index Volume 4. Also N508 Sub Rosa listed as a Pacholder brand and not A & G. Noted as well that I think it was a sepia LITHO type issue and NOt real photo. I will post the correct answer soon.
edited to correct and add the following: I checked my Sub Rosa unopened pack and an advertising piece. M.S.Pacholder and P. Lorillard listed as manufacturers. Also, N508 is NOT a real photo like the N48 cards but rather a litho with gold embellishments.
(edited to correct small gramatical error that annoyed me"-)
05-01-2007, 03:39 PM
Pre-1900 Women's baseball cards
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