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  #1  
Old 11-08-2007, 10:30 AM
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Default Where was Joe Jax those early years (1908-10) ?

Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

In 1908 Connie Mack signed a promising 20-yr old prospect, Joe Jackson....he played in only 5 games with the A's and batted .130.

So, he was sent down to Greenville, a AA team in the Carolina Association. He played in 87 games and hit .346

1908 Greenville Team photo from which AMERICAN CARAMEL most likely used, to design his "strange looking" Rookie card in their E90-1 set.








In 1909 the A's gave Joe Jax another chance; however, he lasted for only 5 games in Philadelphia. He batted .294.....but, he just did
not "fit" with Mack's team....both the crowds in the stands and even some of his teammates, harassed him for his "backwoods" style
of playing the game. So, he was sent down to Savannah (South Atlantic League), where he batted .358 in 118 games.




On July 25, 1910 there was one of the worst player trades in all of BB history. The A's sent Joe Jax to the Cleveland Naps for Bris Lord.
I guess Connie Mack thought with his Championship winning team, and the fact that Joe Jax just wasn't fitting in the Philadelphia scene.....
this trade in 1910 was a smart deal. Connie Mack had a great eye for talent....but, he certainly was wrong on this one.
Shoeless Joe batted .387 for Cleveland in 20 games. He spent most of 1910 with New Orleans (the Champions of the Southern Association).




Consider this guys and gals....had Joe "cottoned-up" to Connie Mack (and those fickle Philly fans) and had been one of Mack's "favorites";
Joe would have avoided "Comiskey and Co."....and perhaps, be an even more renowned HOFer than Cobb.

Let's have your thoughts on this subject....pictures....or cards ?


TED Z

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  #2  
Old 11-08-2007, 10:34 AM
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Default Where was Joe Jax those early years (1908-10) ?

Posted By: Matt

Very cool Ted!

How many more championships would that Philly team have won with Joe Jax?

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  #3  
Old 11-08-2007, 10:46 AM
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Default Where was Joe Jax those early years (1908-10) ?

Posted By: Jason L

that is a stinker, aesthetically, to be sure. But why does it have an apostrophe after Jackson's name? never noticed that before.

thanks for sharing the photos, Ted..cool stuff!

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  #4  
Old 11-08-2007, 10:56 AM
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Default Where was Joe Jax those early years (1908-10) ?

Posted By: Trevor Hocking

I do have to say in that last photo Jax did not get the memo to wash his uniform that day. No but seriously I am very sure if he would have with Mack his whole carrier obviously he would not have been kicked out of baseball and I am sure he would have been a top notch HOFer today. Now I don't know about being better than Cobb but he would have been up there IMO.

By the way Great pictures!!!

Trevor

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  #5  
Old 11-08-2007, 11:20 AM
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Default Where was Joe Jax those early years (1908-10) ?

Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

The "apostrophe" is actually a misplaced COMMA.

All other, E90 cards have either a comma (or a period) that follows the player's name.

I have not seen an E90 Jackson card with either a comma or a period following his name....so, I don't think this "flaw" is an error or variation.

TED Z

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  #6  
Old 11-08-2007, 11:24 AM
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Default Where was Joe Jax those early years (1908-10) ?

Posted By: barrysloate

All the ones I've seen have the apostrophe.

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  #7  
Old 11-08-2007, 01:24 PM
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Default Where was Joe Jax those early years (1908-10) ?

Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

About 15 years ago I paid approx. $120 for this card in Vg-Ex condition.

There are two of them on ebay now for about $25,000....a factor of 200 x what it sold for back in the late'80s,
or early '90s.

Can any other BB card beat that kind of evaluation increase in that period ?

TED Z

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  #8  
Old 11-08-2007, 01:31 PM
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Default Where was Joe Jax those early years (1908-10) ?

Posted By: Dan Bretta

There were some nice snapshot photos of opening day in 1909 in Jacksonville, FL of a game between Savannah and Jville on ebay about a month ago. They were inside a photo album that had all kinds of historically important photos (Taft's inauguration, et cetera) I'm not even sure if the winner of the auction realized the significance of the baseball photos because none of the other items he bids on are baseball related and the ebay auction made no mention that Joe Jackson played for Savannah.

edited to add: The link to that old auction is still active with the photos.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300158309095

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  #9  
Old 11-08-2007, 02:23 PM
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Default Where was Joe Jax those early years (1908-10) ?

Posted By: Brian Weisner


Hi Ted,
Nice thread... Here is my only Jackson shot from that time:





Be well Brian

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  #10  
Old 11-08-2007, 04:34 PM
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Default Where was Joe Jax those early years (1908-10) ?

Posted By: Rhys

I have some newspaper articles which talk about Joe Jackson leaving the Athletics without permission because he was homesick for his new bride and how he has blacklisted himself etc. I dont think Connie Mack sent him anywhere, I think he just went and was allowed back because he was such an enormous talent. The articles talk about how he could not stand the north and missed his wife so badly that he just could not handle it.

Rhys Yeakley

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  #11  
Old 11-08-2007, 04:45 PM
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Default Where was Joe Jax those early years (1908-10) ?

Posted By: Steve

IMO, Joe played Sally League with Savannah 1909 and lived in an apartment on Abercorn St. Then traded from the A's to Cleveland.

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  #12  
Old 11-08-2007, 08:28 PM
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Default Where was Joe Jax those early years (1908-10) ?

Posted By: Paul

Ted, are you sure it was only 15 years (1992) ago when you paid $120 for your Jackson? That sounds more like a 25 year old price.

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  #13  
Old 11-08-2007, 08:34 PM
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Default Where was Joe Jax those early years (1908-10) ?

Posted By: Matt

Ted - I humbly request the next thread be on Jackson's post Black Sox years.

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  #14  
Old 11-09-2007, 05:43 AM
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Default Where was Joe Jax those early years (1908-10) ?

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Thanks for posting your better looking pix of the 1908 Greenville team.

It certainly beats my 1908 pix from my Reach BB Guide. I posted it, because it looks like the photo American Caramel
used for the E90-1 card of Joe Jax.
I always wondered where that strange image of him came from ?

TED Z

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  #15  
Old 11-09-2007, 08:10 AM
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Default Where was Joe Jax those early years (1908-10) ?

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Thanks for questioning my timeline. I checked my records and I acquired the E90-1 Joe Jackson card in 1987......I paid $200 for it.

It was prior to the movies......Eight Men Out and Field of Dreams.....which were shown in 1989. I thought these two films were on
the big screen in the early 1990's. Boy, is time going by too fast.

I definitely feel that these two movies made a definite impact on the sudden rise in prices of all Joe Jackson cards in the early '90s.

TED Z

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  #16  
Old 11-09-2007, 09:15 AM
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Default Where was Joe Jax those early years (1908-10) ?

Posted By: barrysloate

Ted- my recollection is the same as yours. When those two movies came out, Jackson became a household name and his cards started to appreciate quickly.

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  #17  
Old 11-09-2007, 09:21 AM
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Default Where was Joe Jax those early years (1908-10) ?

Posted By: Joe D.

the apostrophe is there because he owned right field.

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  #18  
Old 11-09-2007, 09:35 AM
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Default Where was Joe Jax those early years (1908-10) ?

Posted By: Ken Wirt

Joe D.

Right on!!!

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  #19  
Old 11-09-2007, 02:25 PM
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Default Where was Joe Jax those early years (1908-10) ?

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Joe was mocked, ridiculed because of his illiteracy, etc., etc. in Philadelphia.....so, it's no wonder that he didn't like being up north.
He was only a 20-year old kid when he first came to the A's.
He was very comfortable in Greenville, SC....it's where he met his wife....and, that's where he played well. When he was traded to
Cleveland, he was well accepted and liked there by his teammates; and, played up to his great potential. In fact, his best seasons
were with the Naps.

Another factor regarding the A's was that they had a steady Right-Fielder in Danny Murphy, who was a favorite of the Philly crowd,
since Murphy was grew up in Philadelphia and Connie Mack was not about to replace him.

TED Z

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  #20  
Old 11-09-2007, 04:00 PM
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Default Where was Joe Jax those early years (1908-10) ?

Posted By: barry arnold

Fascinating work, Ted.
I just finished a couple of biographies of Cobb and it is absolutely amazing how Jackson and Cobb just couldn't 'fit in' early in their careers and went on
to be the very best of all time. Perseverance--along with pure talent and genius-- do come in handy, don't they?

best,
barry

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  #21  
Old 11-09-2007, 04:21 PM
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Default Where was Joe Jax those early years (1908-10) ?

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

This photograph was by L. F. Bouchereau... it shows the 1910 New Orleans team, Southern Association champions for 1910. And it is the same photo posted above by Ted Z.

This photo is from The Book of Baseball, by Patten and McSpadden. A really neat book for folks interested in baseball in the days of the white, gold and brown border tobacco cards.

I've tried to put this photo up so that if you guys click on it and download it, what you'll get should be a good size file. You could zoom in on details in it. I was unsuccessful... what I download is 244k. If anyone wants a 1.7 meg version, email me and I'll email it back to you.

Frank.



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Old 11-09-2007, 07:29 PM
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Default Where was Joe Jax those early years (1908-10) ?

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

It didn't enter my mind.....but, you are very right how Ty Cobb and Joe Jackson were similar in certain respects.....

They grew up not to far from each other.

They both stood 6:1

They both threw right-handed and batted left-handed

They both started off as Right Fielders

They both struggled in the Majors their 1st (or 2nd) year

However.....

Their personalities differed quite significantly.

TED Z

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  #23  
Old 11-09-2007, 07:38 PM
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Default Where was Joe Jax those early years (1908-10) ?

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

While were comparing Cobb and Shoeless Joe, how do their careers "mirror" each other ?

And, if that's too easy.....what stat did Jackson beat Cobb out on ?

TED Z

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  #24  
Old 11-09-2007, 09:20 PM
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Default Where was Joe Jax those early years (1908-10) ?

Posted By: barry arnold

Ted,
how about highest batting average for a rookie--.408 in 1911?

best,
barry

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  #25  
Old 11-10-2007, 08:29 AM
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Default Where was Joe Jax those early years (1908-10) ?

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Not quite the answer I'm looking for....to my two Trivia ?'s

But, you bring up an interesting question....what year is actually considered to be his "rookie" year in the Majors ?

TED Z

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  #26  
Old 11-10-2007, 09:55 AM
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Default Where was Joe Jax those early years (1908-10) ?

Posted By: barrysloate

Jackson had more triples in a season than Cobb ever did, but that's probably not it either.

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Old 11-10-2007, 09:58 AM
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Default Where was Joe Jax those early years (1908-10) ?

Posted By: Matt

They "mirrored" each other sin Joe started with the A's and Cobb ended with the A's.

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Old 11-10-2007, 12:19 PM
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Default Where was Joe Jax those early years (1908-10) ?

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

The operative word was "mirror"....and, you got this hint.

Jackson's first 2 years were with the A's....and, Cobb's last 2 years were with the A's.

Good thinking, but there still is another Trivia ? to be answered ?

TED Z

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Old 11-10-2007, 11:57 PM
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Default Where was Joe Jax those early years (1908-10) ?

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

While your answer was not the one I was looking....it's still is a good one.

Jackson hit Triples much more often than Cobb did. Career-wise, Jackson hit a Triple for every 29 At Bats.

Cobb hit a Triple for every 38 At Bats.

I like your answer.....it was thought-provoking.

TED Z

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Old 11-11-2007, 12:57 AM
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Default Where was Joe Jax those early years (1908-10) ?

Posted By: barry arnold

Ted,
As i indicated in my post above, I'm assuming the rookie year was 1911 since
he played so little the year before.
Do you have a different idea? i'm eager to hear.

best,
barry

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Old 11-11-2007, 01:10 AM
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Default Where was Joe Jax those early years (1908-10) ?

Posted By: Gilbert Maines

I don't know, Barry. That was actually his fourth year in MLB. Calling him
hey rookie ... was getting kinda old. Plus as Ted points out Jackson beat
Cobb (and everyone else) in the rate of his triples production, and on a
rate basis, 1910 was his most prolific year (every 15th at bat).


But as you indicate, he did not get much exposure his first three years. But
waiting until his fifth year to say "ok rube, you are no longer a rookie"
is stretching it a bit. Don't you think? I guess this nomenclature is
defined by rules now, why not.

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Old 11-11-2007, 08:23 AM
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Default Where was Joe Jax those early years (1908-10) ?

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Statistics and the use of numbers always concerns me...


Joe turned 31 during his last year. Ty turned 31 after his 1917 season.

If we looked at what they did to that point, and if you add in their home runs (since most of those were inside the park back then, and for those that weren't either of these guys could have legged out a triple), then you get a triple or a HR every 22.4 ABs for Joe, and Ty does it every 26.4 ABs.


For the period 1910 through 1920, while both are in the same league and playing regularly:

Ty wins 8 batting titles, leads in slugging 5 times, in triples 3 times.
Joe wins no batting titles, leads in slugging once, and in triples 3 times.

Maybe the defenses played the two differently, maybe Joe was a better triples hitter... I do know this, if Ty had wanted to hit more triples than Joe in any given year, then he would have done so... Ty the player could come closer to doing whatever he wanted on the field than anyone else, except maybe Honus.


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Old 11-11-2007, 04:49 PM
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Default Where was Joe Jax those early years (1908-10) ?

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Regarding the TRIPLES comparison.....

Jackson hit 90 playing for the Naps at the old League Park (1910-1915) in Clev. It was a spacious field
with 385-460-290 (40 ft wall)....LF-CF-RF, respectively.

He hit 78 with the White Sox (1915-1920) at Comiskey Park....another spacious field with 363-420-363.
So, my point is that both of these ballparks accommodated Joe Jax in getting Triples (barefoot or other-
wise).

And, playing at Briggs Stadium (1912-26), Cobb hit over 200. This ballpark was quite spacious, too, with
345-467-370 dimensions. Therefore, we had a young man (Jax) who could run a "country mile" and a man
with a lot of "moxie", who dared to get as many bases as he could get out of his hits. My friend....I think
it's a wash.

Let me add Ruth to the mix of your final statement...."Ty the player could come closer to doing whatever
he wanted on the field than anyone else, except maybe Honus."

TED Z

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Old 11-11-2007, 09:51 PM
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Default Where was Joe Jax those early years (1908-10) ?

Posted By: barry arnold

Gil,
for some reason, I memorized 1911 for ole Jackson years ago and held onto it as the rookie year because it was somehow imprinted in the ole cabeza.
i'm ready to rethink it; thanks much for the nudge.

best,
barry

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