PSA OR SGC?????

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Posted By: MW

<< It was only a matter of time before you edit, for spelling my first post. >>


With scandal, spelled like you did, "scandel", I couldn't help it.


Actually, Mark, you're right. I shouldn't have said a thing..."scandel" made me think of "grendel" (Julie can tell you why) and that seemed more fitting...especially when discussing PSA. Cheers!

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Posted By: MW

Spelling in your email is different than spelling on this website? Does an object have the same weight but different mass on the moon? Didn't think so.


They're both HTML encoded, Mark. Nice try. Why not be creative instead of lying about it and claim it was an Old English usage?

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Hey Mike,

It is view points like Marks that the rest of the board would like to see. Wheteher he is selling vintage cards or newer cards, this thread is about PSA vs. SGC. Point counterpoint is what we are looking for but don't chase them from the board.

My one question to Mark or anyone in general, is how can you justify sending in nonhigh number commons in for grading and still make any kind of profit or justify the cost if you are keeping the cards for yourself? Are you able to get some great deal the rest of us don't aware of?

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Posted By: jay behrens

I am about as far from a disciple of MW as you can get. We have had more than few heated debates, but this does not mean that I blindly think everything he says is a lie or the truth. I will back up someone, regardless of whether I am a discople or not, if what they are saying is something I agree with or know to be a fact.

As for you SGC 8.8, it's possible he thought, that you thought SGC used a 1-10 scale with decimal points, which isn't the case.

Jay

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Posted By: Albie O'Hanian

Lee-I would guess that the sellers listed below made a small profit on those cards. Sometimes you can benefit by sending a card in to get graded by PSA.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1987909255&category=16273

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1985772511&category=16273

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1988041819&category=16275

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1987692232&category=16275

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1986245180&category=16273

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Posted By: jay behrens

Albie, not sure if you've ever submitted cards for grading, but 9s adn 10s don't grow on trees, even with PSA's lax grading of late. If you can get one or 2 of your cards to grade in taht range, then it was most likely worth submitting all those cards, but the VAST majority do not make this grade, thus the reason for my brother's question.

Hell, I submitted some 1971 Topps that I pulled directly from vendor boxes and went straight in to plastic pages back in the mid 1980s. The highest grade I got was a SGC92, but none lower than an 84.

Once again, the exceptions have been pointed out.

Jay

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Posted By: jay behrens

Albie, Check out the 1973 Topps example you posted and tell me you honestly think that card deserves a 10. The front looks nice, but no way a card should be a 10 with the back off center.

We knew they can't grade vintage cards, is this shoddy grading moving into modern cards, or is it possible to trace the who submitted the card and see if there was possible preferencial treatment in the grading of this card.

It would seem that PSA is going to have their hands full in the damage control department for awhile.

Jay

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Posted By: PSAKID

Don't get on your SGC high horse too quickly. If it (fake holders) happened to PSA, it can certainly happen to SGC. After all, SGC holders are 10x easier to crack without damage than PSA holders.

You may be jumping for joy now but if the graded card market comes crumbling down, we'll all be singing the blues, regardless of where our allegiences lie.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

This isn't just about changing holders, there will always be criminals out there out smarting us, but they usually are not so called reputable companies. It's more about what my brother just pointed out. How do you justify the 10 with a O/C back. This is the facts that scare me.

HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT PROBLEM PSA KID?

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Posted By: PSAKID

I don't have my caliper with me but it looks to be within 75-25 (published PSA standards for back of card). By the way, here is a PSA 8 that is bringing in big $. So it's not just commons in 9 or 10 holders that sell for big money.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2700631727&category=16273

By the way, this card formerly resided in an SGC 96 holder.

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Posted By: John(z28jd)

this thread was just too long for me to not be in it at least once....its officially the longest thread eve on this board which just proves you put psa or sgc in the title and more people will look at it,and you onder why people do it on ebay.Heres your proof!

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Posted By: sagard

"Yes. And I submitted the 1887 N172 Kelly, the 1935 National Chicle Nagurski and the T206 Uzit Cobb myself. Can you say the same for all of your expensive PSA graded cards? Didn't think so."

Why are these cards still in PSA holders? I appreciate your tenacity for pointing out PSA weakness.

This board is a fantastic counter balance to the CU board.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Doesn't that mean flawless, with ZERO flaws?

If I am wrong I quite this hobby

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Posted By: jay behrens

Dunno, could it be the fact that pop report for the PSA 8 Ferrarro says there is one ONE? <sarcasm off>

Jay

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Posted By: jay behrens

If 75/25 centering on the back gets you GEM MINT status, then I really do have no respect for the grading standards at PSA. GEM MINt should mean GEM MINT, as in NO FLAWS!!!

I could understand a 9, but no way a 10. A 10 means perfection.

Jay

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Posted By: PSAKID

Of course the price reflects the low population. That is a tough card, along with the Shannon, McDaniel and a handful of others. But a question was how do people justify sending in non-high # population commons. The answer is sending in low population commons. Of course any card with a vast supply in a particular grade will be tough to turn a profit on. Even high population star cards can be had for cheap. You just have to be wise in your submissions. I understand the question though as many of you collect pre-war cards. Based on your perspective, 1950's cards are considered new and plentiful.

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Posted By: PSAKID

It's published right there in PSA's standards. So if that's the reason you don't use PSA, great. That's your right. I could make the same argument about why an OC card like the Ferraro was given a 96 from SGC? The card is clearly OC top to bottom and does not deserve to be considered mint. Yet SGC's published standard is 60-40 or better for SGC 96. I would rather buy a card that is 75-25 vs a 75-25 published standard as opposed to a card that is 65-35 vs a 60-40 published standard.

The Ferraro is a very recent SGC grade and is not a product of the old holder.

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Posted By: PSAKID

in any holder and I'll pay 10x book for it. I can say that because it's impossible. There's no such thing as a flawless card. Not even the 2003 1 of 1 atomic NASA titanium refractors are perfect. So if a PSA 10 or SGC 98 has to be perfect, then there would never be a 10 or 98 graded.

I'm surprised SGC collectors would be putting down PSA for centering when SGC has a higher than insignificant percentage of OC cards on the market as well. I remember tracking SGC 1972 commons on eBay several months ago for crossover opportunities and I hit 15 consecutive auctions for SGC 88 and 92's that were outside the PSA 8 centering guidelines. They were vending quality but were outside SGC and PSA's published guidelines for NM/MT.

I must say I have had luck getting some SGC 92's and 88's from 1969 to cross over to PSA 8. I have a 1969 SGC 96 in for grading now. It's real borderline for a 9 but I have my fingers crossed. I also have an SGC 92 that has ink smear on the back that is not likely to get an 8.

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Posted By: MW

sagard,

They're in PSA holders because I submitted the cards myself. I didn't submit them through a service where preferential treatment was received by a particular dealer and I didn't submit them through someone else who slabs his own cards on the side. Can you say the same thing about all of your PSA graded cards? Didn't think so.


PSAkid,

Your senseless banter is quite typical of a small-time PSA pundit. By sprinkling your collectors universe dust here and there and by clicking the heels of your PSA red ruby slippers together, you hope and pray that the nonsense you write will take on a life of its own and somehow be transformed into something that is truthful or makes some sense. Try again later?


By the way, guys (PSAkid, Albie), any updates on how many fradulent PSA cards are out there? Just give me a rough estimate of percent. 10%? 20%? 30%?

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Posted By: Todd (nolemmings)

I think the question about your PSA cards was directed toward why it is you have not submitted them to SGC for reholdering/regrading. If SGC cards command similar or higher prices, and PSA's integrity is slipping more and more, one might ask why you have not made the switch. I believe that to be alegitimate question.
Todd

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Posted By: Albie O'Hanian

Jay-Somebody wanted to know how it could be justified sending in commons for grading. I showed a few examples. There are countless more examples but why waste space? There are currently 20 collectors on the PSA set registry trying to complete the 1968 topps set-and 19 of them have over 20% complete. That is enough people bidding and competing for PSA commons from this year to justify sending card in to be graded.
The PSA 10 card qualifies under the back centering qualifications for PSA which is listed as 75/25 for the back.
If you are not getting the grades back that you want you should examine the cards with a 10X magnifier before you submit. Even cards from vending are not guaranteed to get 8's.

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Posted By: PSAKID

I refuse to engage in personal attacks and had ignored your constant personal attacks on virtually every member before you got kicked off of the CU boards. If decide to discuss cards and not the people (who you don't know) posting the message, I'll be glad to reply to you. Otherwise, I will ignore your replies. It is apparent from other posts here that forum members want to see more inputs from PSA collectors. So why try and drive them all away with personal attacks???

Have a nice day.

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Posted By: MW

PSAKid, which worries you more? The fact that many of the PSA cards in your personal collection may be fraudulent or the fact that many of your nonfraudulent PSA cards may be overgraded and a by-product of PSA's long-standing system of dealer favoritism?

I mean, when you really think about it, is it safe to purchase ANY PSA graded card that doesn't come with a detailed history?

Do you have a detailed history accompanying all of your PSA cards, PSAKid? Maybe this should be the next step for the PSA dealer network????

What do you think, PSAKid?

Oh, and have yourself a wonderful evening while you ponder the possibility of using your PSA cards for a useful purpose -- firewood! Cheers!

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Posted By: MW

Todd,

As long as one knows the origin of a PSA card, I don't see why there's anything wrong with it. In the case of the remaining PSA graded cards on my website, they were all submitted directly by me.

Keep in mind that I have never claimed that "every SGC cards always sells for more than every PSA card." This would be silly...but I think you already know that.

I see nothing wrong with my PSA 9 N172 Kelly or my PSA 6 T206 Uzit Cobb. In fact, there are many vintage collectors who have both PSA and SGC graded cards in their collections. Heck, you might even be one of them.

I've got expensive cards in both PSA and SGC holders. Obviously, I have MORE value in SGC cards than PSA cards, but that's just my choice. I've been involved in this hobby and grading for quite some time. I was one of the "original" PSA-Authorized dealers and I am extremely familiar with the inner workings of both PSA and SGC. Based on my years of accumulated knowledge, I have chosen the company that serves my needs and the needs of the hobby most adequately -- SGC.

I'm just fine with a few of my cards being in PSA holders. I know where the cards came from and I submitted them myself. No favoritism, no PSA-dealer network, no reviews that resulted in PSA upgrades, no fraudulent PSA cards that were graded and holdered outside of the company. I can honestly say that the PSA cards that I own are 100% free from the ominous black clouds of fear and doubt that have descended upon many PSA dealers and their valued PSA inventories. Many years ago, when I saw the current PSA scandal approaching, I sold off the vast majority of my PSA inventory. What am I supposed to say? I told you so? I've been writing the same thing on this forum for over a year now. It's not my fault that PSA collectors and PSA dealers might have tons of overgraded crap in their collections.

I DO have something to admit, however. Given the current nature of the PSA scandal, I just might end up crossing over my remaining PSA cards to SGC holders. Even though I am confident in their authenticities, I am also keenly aware that panic has begun to set in among many PSA collectors and dealers and the public is beginning to think that EVERY PSA graded card is tainted. I guess I'm just sitting tight for now to see what happens. Fortunately, I haven't said abusive things about SGC or SGC dealers like many of the PSA collectors and dealers who are posting here today, so at least I'll still have a home to come back to when the PSA scandal starts to unravel the fabric that so precariously holds together the hopes and dreams of so many deluded PSA supporters.

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Posted By: runscott

But what I think perplexes people is when they see commons sell for $5 in a PSA holder and we know it cost more than that to slab it. The answer is probably that the original owner of the commons sent a bunch of them in, banking on 1 or 2 to get high grades and off-set the cost of slabbing all the others - the $5 cards you see on ebay are simply the chaff.

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Posted By: David Williams

I'm going to be ROFLMAO when the latest SGC news comes out. All this high and mighty talk and slamming of PSA will slow down...

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Posted By: runscott

As often as PSA'ers complain about PSA-bashing, it really sounds like you all just don't like people discussing PSA's problems (which happen to be current news, BTW) - sorry, once they clean up their act there will be nothing to complain about, meanwhile....

Also, your defense of PSA sounds like an 8-yr old who gets caught doing something wrong and uses the defense "but little Johnnie did the same thing", only in this case it is "but little Johnnie WILL do the same thing".

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Posted By: Albie O'Hanian

runscott-Yes, I agree with your statement. I think most of the commons that grade less than 8 were either part of big submissions where dealers have already made their money or they simply thought the card would grade higher.

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Posted By: PSAKID

I own over 2000 PSA graded cards and most were pregraded and submitted by me. I've never bought a card from WIWAG and I own zero of the newer junk (all pre 1976). Sure some cards I feel are overgraded while others I feel are undergraded but I'm satisfied with their performance overall. I would like to see more consistancy from grader to grader. Perhaps SGC does a better job at that but that may not be the case if they didn't have the luxary of a single grader reviewing every vintage card passing through the door.

As I said before, every grading company is one scam away from a "crisis".

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Posted By: PSAKID

I submit commons in bulk to PSA. As an example, I'll submit 100 1974 commons. 25-30 will come back 9's and a few will come back 7's or less due to print flaws or a light surface wrinkle I may have missed. The rest come out 8's. I'll lose money on the NM and worse cards and a small % of the 8's (high population cards). Most of the 8's I'll break even on. The 9's is where the money is. Getting one 9 that sells for $75 and cost me <$10 will cover most of the losses. The rest of the 9's will all sell for above $10 and that's where the profit is. And some of the 8's, especially Cubs, Mets, Yankees, etc will sell for premiums. So the PSA 7 and under cards are basically throw aways.

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Posted By: marty

I recently purchased a group of cards. I have an idea how to tell the era of PSA graded, but I do not know how to tell the era of SGC graded. I have attached a scan of the back of the label also. There are other cards that that have serial numbers that are close.

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Posted By: PSAKID

This turns out to be no big deal (from a holder reliability standpoint) and that no other grading companies experience this. If there's an easy way to tell if the holders have been tampered with, then the graded card market should remain strong and viable. If it turns out the sonically sealed holders are not secure, we're all in trouble.

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Posted By: David Williams

Don't worry, you should hear about it in 2-3 weeks...

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Posted By: MW

PSAKid,

I'm happy that your collection of over 2000 PSA cards is safe and sound. Now then, do you think you'll have a tough time proving this to future customers? Hopefully you aren't one of those vest-pocket PSA dealers who doesn't keep track of transactions and doesn't have receipts for purchases and sales at shows and on eBay, otherwise you're SOL. I sure don't envy that prodigious task you've got in front of you once the PSA scandal unfolds, I'll tell you that.

As for other grading companies, does that really matter? Why are you so concerned about that? With 2000 PSA graded cards you had better take care of your own business mess and an impending public relations nightmare before you start wondering "what if?"

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Posted By: MW

PSAkid,

Personal attacks on nearly ever member of the CU forum? That's funny! Maybe if you were referring to the half-dozen names you and other anonymous users had to attack me on that message board, your statement would be true. Otherwise, it's just more PSA nonsense. What I find strange, however, is the fact that you waited until a major PSA Scandal to venture over here to attack me and belittle SGC. Does it make you feel better?

Let me put this to you another way. I wear that distinction as a badge of honor. If PSA and Collectors Universe view me as so much of a threat to their "wholesome" existence that they have to ban me (and all other dissenters) from their forums, then I don't have a problem with it. At least there were some who took my warnings about PSA to heart. My personal feeling is that once this scandal fully unfolds, you'll wish that you were someone who listened.

I believe that SGC is currently running a crossover special. Look into it.

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Posted By: MW

<< If it turns out the sonically sealed holders are not secure, we're all in trouble. >>


Nope. Wrong again. The current Scandal only affects PSA and certain PSA dealers with inventories of 2000+ cards. My solution? Diversification. Try to think of it as owning a nonperforming stock.

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Posted By: MW

...would that be before or after the time period during which PSA cards will be worth diddly-squat?

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Posted By: MW

Marty,

You own so few SGC graded cards that I wouldn't think this would create such a burning desire inside of you. Have you tried calling them?

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Posted By: MW

David,

I'm glad you take some solace in your belief that something bad is going to happen to other grading companies. You must be really stressed out right now about the PSA Scandal to go to such extremes. Hey, whatever makes you PSA guys feel better about yourselves, right?

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Posted By: PSAKID

As long as everyone buys the card and not the holder, they won't have problems. I'm not worried about what I've sold. I'll put those cards up to scrutiny of any other grader at PSA or any other grading company. And yes, I've tracked every sale I've ever made. I know who purchased the card, when they purchased it, what they paid for it and what card they purchased. I'm confident many of those cards would bump up a half grade in SGC holders since I'm conservative in what I submit in order to eliminate the borderline 8's.

By the way, I bought a 1969 Nolan Ryan from BMW several years ago that ended up getting a PSA 8. Should you be concerned that the card can be traced back to you if it is a trimmed card in a bogus holder?

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Posted By: MW

PSAKid,

You can worry about SGC's centering standards all you want, but I've got some practical advice for you. Concentrate on the unfolding PSA Scandal or you'll end up with 2000+ PSA graded cards that no one wants. Not you. Not me. Not anyone on eBay. No one. Think about it.

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Posted By: marty

MW
I was hearing that other cards were graded quite a while ago from some on this board, including your self. Since this board is to exchange knowledge, and some say that they have the knowledge that I seek, I was hoping that they would be willing to share. If this is not the case, that is fine also.

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Posted By: David Williams

I'm not sure why my last post was deleted - just look at the IP numbers, I was not posting anonymously.

MW, I'm also curious - I've seen you promote BVG cards - do you approve of their standards? Over PSAs? I personally agree that SGC is a quality company, I just think many on here who feel it's MORE of a quality company will be disappointed by events in the future.

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Posted By: MW

This doesn't have to do with the fifth horse in the fourth race at Canterbury Downs, does it? Now that's information I could really use!

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Posted By: MW

<< MW, I'm also curious - I've seen you promote BVG cards - do you approve of their standards? >>

That would be a great topic for a new thread. Why don't you start one, David!

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Posted By: jay behrens

David, instead of alluding to a supposed SGC scandal, how about telling us what you know so that in 2-3 weeks when this news is supposedly going to break, we can look back and go, WOW!!! He was right. Or, look back and laugh.

Jay- about to make a call to his psychic friend

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Posted By: MW

Marty,

If you are really interested in chatting lots more about this subject and SGC, give me a call (608-833-5515). I'm sure we could speak for hours.

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Posted By: Marc S.

Any card graded by SGC that does not have the split grade on it (e.g. your fletcher card is not SGC 80/6) was potentially graded/overseen by Joe Merkle -- who has had a very dubious reputation in the hobby over some time. In fact, I believe that the first few months of SGC's split-grade was in place while Merkle was still with the company.

As with anything else, I advocate buying the card and not the holder. Though the jury is still out on what has taken place at PSA, it is important to realize that both PSA and SGC have had some difficulties in the past. As for your Elbie Fletcher card, it clearly does not meet SGC's current critera for that grade, which specifies "80 EX/NM 6: 75/25 or better centering..."

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Posted By: David Williams

The split grades were started well after Joe Merkle SGC. The semi-newer labels, with the green border and the SGC website on the top, WERE started a few months before Merkle left. So, the old labels with the "SG" in the background and kinda faded were all graded under Merkle's supervision, the split grades were NOT, and the new labels w/o the split grade may have been.

And Jay, if MW wants to present all this evidence that he is collecting on the forum, I'll be happy to indicate what will happen sooner...

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Posted By: David Williams

<<David, instead of alluding to a supposed SGC scandal,>>

I should point out I said news, NOT scandal.