The Cincinnati Wagner "Graded"

[z28jd]

I have this same exact unreleased card and in much better condition so I can't wait to get it slabbed and sell it for about 5 times what they get for their ratty looking card. Can someone post the pics for me, size was too big and when I adjusted it to fit the picture was about the size of a dime? I included in the pictures a released 1909 penny so people can tell the difference between stuff that comes out in 1909 and stuff that doesn't. When I got this card for free after buying a t206 Beckley at a card show, I did not realize I was in the presence of the world's most generous man.

Send me a PM with your email address if you can work gypsy magic on my pictures so theyre able to post and I'll email them to you

[ls7plus]

Hi, Corey. You may well be right, but these two know very well by now that this is a fairly close-knit hobby, involving a lot of people with a ton of knowledge, and excellent lines of communication. In my three and a half decades of practice, I would find it very unusual that someone would continue to attempt to pull off a scam under such circumstances. I'm just saying that it appears that THEY actually believe in the integrity of their card, and I'm curious enough that I'd like to compare it's front to other T206's under adequate magnification. I would just prefer more actual information with regard to the card itself. Having taken a loupe to many, many shows for years prior to third party grading entering the picture as a major player, and having detected far too many trimmed cards as well as a number of counterfeits, I'm certainly not naive about what's out there. But I am curious.

Best always,

Larry

[E93]

If they thought it was legitimate, they would give it to PSA or SGC for a two hour service, get it slabbed and make hundreds of thousands of dollars. I have a very hard time believing they think it is legit. I believe they are hoping to find somebody with more money than brains. So far they haven't found one.
JimB

[buymycards]

There is no doubt that this is fake, but there is a small possibility that these people really believe they have a legit card. It happens all of the time with my customers. Someone comes in and wants to mail a laptop to Nigeria. My clerks know that they need to have the customer talk to me, so the customer comes in my office and I tell them about the craigslist scams and I assure them that they are being scammed, but they just won't believe me. So, we mail off the laptop and a couple of days later the customer comes in and wants to know if we can get the laptop back, which of course, we can't. We see the same scams with credit card and money order fraud and work at home scams. The customers WANTS to believe they are on to something, so they don't listen to advice. Maybe these guys are in the same category.

Rick

[CW]

"It is what we call an unreleased version of the card," said ACA Grading owner Martin Brouillard. "It is a controversial card, and people are scared of it."

Yes, so scared, in fact, that ol' Honus is making the rounds this year at your local haunted house....

[glynparson]

but anyone that needs magnification to judge that cards legitimacy needs a new hobby.

[novakjr]

Gotta agree with Glyn. From the naked eye, the card not only appears fake, but is OBVIOUSLY fake. "Unreleased Version"? HA. I find it funny that the first of the "unreleased versions" to be discovered, just so happens to be Wagner. Even if it really is an "unreleased version"(cough), it's still worthless if they can't get anyone to believe them... This card is not and never will be an "unreleased version", a "t206 Wagner", or anything else that you can think of. Hell, it's not even a standard reprint, or just another scam(they've taken it way past that point).. It is "the Cobb/Edwards Wagner", and that's all this card will EVER be... And to top it off these two douchebags had the audacity to play the race card against the hobby, it's experts, and whoever else will listen in regards to this card. These two know it's fake(and probably have all along), and since they couldn't get anyone to side with them, they've been hoping to guilt someone into buying their BS. They can shove it up their @$$es...Which should be even more enjoyable now that it's been slabbed..

Sorry, if I come off a little angry, but I take this hobby seriously(well, about as seriously as it could be taken), and I've had about enough of hearing about these two clowns.

[barrysloate]

I suspect the next step is this card will be consigned to one of those marginal country auctions, one with a "no returns, all sales are final" policies. And you just know someone will buy it, figuring if it is real he will get it cheap and make a killing on it. And then you will never hear from these two guys again. That will be the end of their days in the public eye.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I suspect the next step is this card will be consigned to one of those marginal country auctions, one with a "no returns, all sales are final" policies. And you just know someone will buy it, figuring if it is real he will get it cheap and make a killing on it. And then you will never hear from these two guys again. That will be the end of their days in the public eye.

Sounds like the business model of Coaches Corner -- get a BS authentication and then sell the item for a small percentage of what it would be worth if it was authentic to an unsuspecting wet-behind-the-ears novice who thinks he made a killing.

[Leon]

A few pics sent by board member John D....the original fake?

[rjackson44]

its a fake omg

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by Leon

A few pics sent by board member John D....the original fake?

I'm taking offers on this card btw, you can't have the 1909 penny though, that's actually worth something

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by z28jd

I'm taking offers on this card btw, you can't have the 1909 penny though, that's actually worth something

John!!! I was just thinking about you today, as I posted that 't206 errors' article to my website - I was wondering why I gave you a by-line.

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by Runscott

John!!! I was just thinking about you today, as I posted that 't206 errors' article to my website - I was wondering why I gave you a by-line.

Thanks Scott, I seem to think I still know something about t206 errors but for some reason when I finished the set about 7 years ago I stopped collecting them so I've probably forgot a lot of what I used to know. Im hoping that one of the things I forgot was that my Wagner is one of the unreleased ones....fingers crossed

[CW]

At this point, whether the card sells or not, the sellers are ultimately screwed.

If the card never sells, which is likely, they are met with an unrealized dream, plus much wasted time, money and effort -- all for nothing but a little time in the spotlight and plenty of embarassment.

If the card does sell, the new owner will most likely attempt to have it authenticated and will receive the obvious result. They'll then, in turn, sue the original sellers. This card has gotten enough publicity, as have the current owners, that they'll have no place to hide. The card will not hold up in a court of law and they'll be guilty of fraud.

So, either way, this does not end well for Mr. Cobb and Mr. Edwards.

I'm not saying we should sit idly by, and watch someone get scammed, but those are the two likely outcomes.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by glynparson

I'm sorry but anyone that needs magnification to judge that cards legitimacy needs a new hobby.

Right! That's why counterfeit Rose and Mattingly cards made such a splash in the hobby, as well as 1984 Fleer Update Goodens and Pucketts back in the day, and countless others. That's why certain dealers were able to make a killing selling vintage cards that appeared NMT-MT or better, but had actually been run through a paper mill, thereby enlarged, and subsequently trimmed back down to what was technically the correct size, before the advent of TPG. These cards sold and sold well, because they looked right to a large number of people that believed they knew what was legit and what was not. That is, they looked right unless you knew where to look under 16X power or so! As a matter of ACTUAL FACT, the more objective information one has, the better off one is. To think otherwise reflects only naivete, prejudice or arrogance. In three and a half decades of analyzing the facts in the course of litigation law practice, I've learned quite well the value of having all of the facts available that might even conceivabley affect the conclusions to be drawn. He who chooses to proceed without them is often setting himself up for quite a nasty fall!

I'm sorry to be blunt and not sugar-coat it, but sometimes it's necessary to tell it like it is.

Here's hoping we all prefer to keep our minds open and stay objective,

Larry

[z28jd]

Larry, did you happen to notice the scans Leon posted for me? That is the same reprint these two guys have, it was made back in the 70's supposedly, as I was told by the dealer who gave it to me. I've had mine since 1991 and it was old looking then. I have 656 real t206's and my Wagner, which looks exactly like their Wagner, does not look like any of those real t206's. There is no doubt it is a fake card, the back looks real but the front has so many problems it's literally unreal.

Trust me when I say this, I dont like work that much, if I had a real Wagner I wouldn't have it anymore and I certainly wouldn't have a job. Well, I would still be a writer but I wouldn't be working at a restaurant too. These guys do not have anything except the same reprint I've had for 20 years.

If someone now wants to believe because an unknown grading company gave their word it's real, let me know, I'll sell mine for one dollar less than whatever 6 figure price you'd pay for the other one. Reminded me just now that back in the day an unknown grading company graded a Mathewson reprint as real and then came on the board trying to defend their position...we never heard from them again. I suspect the same thing will happen with this company

edit: I have a good memory from 9 years ago, proof that I've been around here waaay too long http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...son+grade+tech

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by z28jd

...
edit: I have a good memory from 9 years ago, proof that I've been around here waaay too long http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...son+grade+tech

Thanks for dredging that one up! The entire gang's there - even Julie jumped in for a cameo at the end.

If I remember correctly, wasn't that what Dan Mathewson got all upset about and disappeared over?

[Fred]

Leon,

I have just one question. Why isn't ACA Grading one of the links available for grading companies in the Vintage Links section? You've got PSA listed Hey all you PSA lovers, take it easy....

Could you imagine if some numnut one actually bought this card at auction.

[glynparson]

I dont need a loupe for any of those counterfeits either, but I guess that's because I know what I am doing. If you need a loupe to tell that card is fake you know nothing about T206's. if you have been around snce the 1980's and need a loupe to tell that is fake you have not learned very much about your hobby.

[irishdenny]

Is it just me... or... "Mr Bud Abbott & Costello Reincarnated!?!?"

Ahhh... Never mind...

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by irishdenny

Is it just me... or... "Mr Bud Abbott & Costello Reincarnated!?!?"

Ahhh... Never mind...

I was thinking more like Ren and Stimpy...

[iggyman]

Nice try, but you are forgetting something. If you look closely at the earlobes......

karu baseball honus wagner.jpg

Thus, my vote is in:

the_three_stooges_image__3_.jpg

They are practically twins triplets!

cobbedwards.jpg

Lovely Day...

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by glynparson

I dont need a loupe for any of those counterfeits either, but I guess that's because I know what I am doing. If you need a loupe to tell that card is fake you know nothing about T206's. if you have been around snce the 1980's and need a loupe to tell that is fake you have not learned very much about your hobby.

Much more closer to the truth is that you would be completely lost without one, as the counterfeit details of many of those cards are not at all clear to the naked eye. With regard to the trimmed cards, many of the most famous dealers prior to TPG in the early '90's carred a loupe with them to shows where they bought raw material in order to check the edges in just the manner I specified, because the cards would indeed measure correctly, and the trimming could not be detected with the human eye. Instead, magnification was required to properly examine the edges and to compare their much sharper appearance against those known to have been factory cuts.

It would clearly seem that you have voluntarily chosen to fall within the category of those befallen by prejudice and/or arrogance, prefering to decide the issue presented on the basis of who these people who own the card are and how different they are from you, when what is really important are the actual facts pertaining to the card itself. You can attempt to rebutt me all you like, but you can't kid yourself about what you really see deep inside you, and you won't change the actual facts about your behavior until you yourself change! Your hostility is only indicative of the truth of the above, which, when you've been brought face to face with it, brings about resentment on your part, and the nastiness comes through. I feel sorrow for your pent-up hatred, which causes you to behave in a manner which you most likely would not prefer, and tends quite strongly to make a complete fool out of you.

Best wishes on a successful metamorphis, becoming a person more willing to objectively consider various sources of actually relevant information, rather than jump to a conclusion based on all the wrong reasons. Remember, my initial post in this thread merely indicated I would like to have more objective information conderning the card itself, rather than people's reactions to the identity of the would-be seller. I did not take any position with regard to the card's validity at all, and most assuredly did not start the nasty comments, but as you have readily seen, am more than capable of defending my position against them.

Larry

[z28jd]

Larry, you seem to be very lost about this card so let me give you history on it. It appeared on ebay many times before anyone knew anything about the sellers so saying someone based their opinion on the card solely based on their opinion of the sellers is extremely way off base, you couldn't be more wrong. Also in response to Glyn you start mentioning the reasons you need a loupe for t206s that have nothing to do with THIS card which is what he was referring. I don't know if you can't see the cards posted in this thread but if you can AND you're still trying to defend your position against it, no one is taking your serious anymore. This card is well known, its been around way too long to still try to have meaningful discussions on the possibility they might be right/wrong

Hundreds of legit people have said this card is fake based on legit knowledge while two people now with no apparent knowledge of t206 cards have said it could be from that era based on paper samples of the back of the card which means they would also say the same thing about a child's drawing of Honus Wagner glued to the front of a t206 card peeled in half.

If I posted my card which is the same exact reprint they have and kept pushing it as real I would instantly have zero credibility and I've done well over 200 deals with various board members. Wouldnt matter what I did in the past or how many deals I've had, I'd be done

[steve B]

So do you actually believe there's any chance it's real?

Having seen the black and white pic of it slabbed I still don't buy it.

There's no or nearly no border to the image area, which is typical of a reprint.
Even the proof has a clear border.

The name and team are darker than the "Pittsburg" on the uniform. On all the pics I have of known real Wagners that lettering is either the same or lighter.

There's a serious loss of detail above TSB on the uniform. A lack of detail seen on no other Wagner. Loss of detail is typical of a rescreened printing (Read reprint)

The aging is very atypical of actual aging. The aging IS typical of a modern reprint dipped in tea or something similar. That highlights cracks in the glosscoat, which is what we see on the card in question.

It appears to have a slight diamond cut, not unusual for a T206 ....But on the sides which is unusual if not unique for a T206

So if we're to believe it's real then we also have to believe that a very early borderless proof printed from a stone etched entirely differently than any other T206 including unreleased players was somehow finished with the production back as NO other proofs were, and glosscoated as only a very few T206s were(Some of the Cobb backs are the only glosscoated ones I've heard of)
And then for some reason cut by machine like a production card, but differently than very nearly all of the production cards.

And that that unique unreleased T206 just happened to be a Wagner.

All that is objective.
If my mother found that card I'd think it was a reprint.
If it wasn't Wagner I'd think it was a reprint.

Yes, the loupe can be handy. I use a 30X one myself, as well as high resolution scans if I want to have a good close look at something. And I use it more as my eyes get old. 20 years ago I could see the dot patterns on fakes without the loupe. Not so much today

Yeah, I'd like to see a 1200DPI scan. Or have the card in hand. If only to remove the .000009% chance it might be real.

Steve B

Originally Posted by ls7plus

Much more closer to the truth is that you would be completely lost without one, as the counterfeit details of many of those cards are not at all clear to the naked eye. With regard to the trimmed cards, many of the most famous dealers prior to TPG in the early '90's carred a loupe with them to shows where they bought raw material in order to check the edges in just the manner I specified, because the cards would indeed measure correctly, and the trimming could not be detected with the human eye. Instead, magnification was required to properly examine the edges and to compare their much sharper appearance against those known to have been factory cuts.

It would clearly seem that you have voluntarily chosen to fall within the category of those befallen by prejudice and/or arrogance, prefering to decide the issue presented on the basis of who these people who own the card are and how different they are from you, when what is really important are the actual facts pertaining to the card itself. You can attempt to rebutt me all you like, but you can't kid yourself about what you really see deep inside you, and you won't change the actual facts about your behavior until you yourself change! Your hostility is only indicative of the truth of the above, which, when you've been brought face to face with it, brings about resentment on your part, and the nastiness comes through. I feel sorrow for your pent-up hatred, which causes you to behave in a manner which you most likely would not prefer, and tends quite strongly to make a complete fool out of you.

Best wishes on a successful metamorphis, becoming a person more willing to objectively consider various sources of actually relevant information, rather than jump to a conclusion based on all the wrong reasons. Remember, my initial post in this thread merely indicated I would like to have more objective information conderning the card itself, rather than people's reactions to the identity of the would-be seller. I did not take any position with regard to the card's validity at all, and most assuredly did not start the nasty comments, but as you have readily seen, am more than capable of defending my position against them.

Larry

[2dueces]

WOW. This card is like a bad cold, it never seems to go away. No one cares what ASA says about this card. The hobby has known it is a fake from the first time it surfaced and it will be a fake until it finally disappears in the night. The strands of paper taken from the back may be from a real T206 but the front is a $.10 fake seen from 1 ft or 100 ft away. I don't care if Bill Gates or Larry the Cable guy owns it. It's still fake and to have pushed this to the point of getting it slabbed as a proof is a slap in the face to every know T206 in the hobby. They got more than their 15 minutes, now I'm hoping they will just fade away. The discussion of it here of having to see it close up or looped is even more perplexing.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by steve B

So do you actually believe there's any chance it's real?

Having seen the black and white pic of it slabbed I still don't buy it.

There's no or nearly no border to the image area, which is typical of a reprint.
Even the proof has a clear border.

The name and team are darker than the "Pittsburg" on the uniform. On all the pics I have of known real Wagners that lettering is either the same or lighter.

There's a serious loss of detail above TSB on the uniform. A lack of detail seen on no other Wagner. Loss of detail is typical of a rescreened printing (Read reprint)

The aging is very atypical of actual aging. The aging IS typical of a modern reprint dipped in tea or something similar. That highlights cracks in the glosscoat, which is what we see on the card in question.

It appears to have a slight diamond cut, not unusual for a T206 ....But on the sides which is unusual if not unique for a T206

Steve, you might be new to this discussion, but....

The legitimacy of this card is no longer questioned, and hasn't been for many, many years, by anyone who has any understanding of lithography and/or scammer behavior (either will do). It was a laughable fake then, and it still is. I was surprised when it first came out and anyone even bothered saying 'why' it's a fake - it's a fake because it's an obvious fake, even from photographs. All the things they did to it to try to make it look real are irrelevant. If they really wanted to pass it off as real, they could have picked a better reprint to start with.

Okay, so throw that card away, next thought: there are just not very many t206 Wagners existing. If we were to ever see a 'previously unreleased version' of ANY t206, do you really think it would be drastically different from all other t206's in every respect other than size, and do you really think it would be of a t206 as rare as the Wagner? I doubt the existence of any such card in a Wagner version, so much, that you would have a hard time showing me one with a blue or red background, with his name spelled wrong, with ANYTHING on it that's different fro a 'normal' Wagner, and convincing me that it was legit, MUCH less if you wouldn't even let a respectable grading company look at it.

[barrysloate]

I agree it is pointless to continue discussing whether or not the card is real. That is beyond discussion. The only reason this subject was resurrected was that the two owners found a grading service willing to slab it. That's the gist of it; the card's authenticity is not the issue here.

[Fred]

STOP - Here's something that wasn't considered:

What if the BACK of that card came from a "REAL/Authentic" T206 Honus Wagner card? Let's say someone had the real deal and the front was somehow destroyed. The person then takes the "REAL" back from a REAL T-206 Honus Wagner card and pastes a fake Wagner front to it. Wouldn't that make it half real?

Has this horse been beaten to death yet?

[steve B]

That was pretty much what I was getting at. Any T206 showing such drastic differences from normal would have to pass some serious examination before it could be accepted as real.

I could see ones with some differences being out there. There's at least one uncataloged major difference, plus what I think is a new major variety that hasn't really caught on. And a huge number of smaller differences.

I've actually read the whole thread a few times, but only commented in detail since Larry seemed to be saying that any opinion without a close examination was biased because of the owners.

Steve B

Originally Posted by Runscott

Steve, you might be new to this discussion, but....


Okay, so throw that card away, next thought: there are just not very many t206 Wagners existing. If we were to ever see a 'previously unreleased version' of ANY t206, do you really think it would be drastically different from all other t206's in every respect other than size, and do you really think it would be of a t206 as rare as the Wagner? I doubt the existence of any such card in a Wagner version, so much, that you would have a hard time showing me one with a blue or red background, with his name spelled wrong, with ANYTHING on it that's different fro a 'normal' Wagner, and convincing me that it was legit, MUCH less if you wouldn't even let a respectable grading company look at it.

[barrysloate]

Here's what I find curious, and I'm a curious guy by nature. When I see something that makes absolutely no sense, I question it.

Here's this new grading company called ACA that really none of us has heard of. They're trying to get into grading and authenticating baseball cards, a very crowded field, and one in which it is not easy to grab a market share. And in a situation like that a company feels they need to do something to draw attention to themselves. So what do they do- they take a card that is arguably the best known counterfeit in the hobby, and authenticate it. Can somebody explain this business model?

I know someone is going to say it brought them publicity, but that's like a doctor building his medical practice by infecting all his patients with bubonic plague. Sure, it will get him in the newspapers, but it won't build his practice. Like I said, this is a mystery. You can't build a business this way.

[Kenny Cole]

I agree that slabbing fakes is a business model that most graders fear to venture into. Unfortunately, I fear that the demand may be higher for that service than I would like it to be. I suppose one could call it a niche market, although it is a niche market that I wish didn't exist.

[ls7plus]

First of all, read my posts. I have never taken a postion with regard to this card's authencity. What I have said is the following:

(1) I would like more information with regard to the actual printing characteristics of the card;

(2) That the more actual information one has, the better one's decisions tend to be;

(3) That there have been occasions during my multiple decade involvement with this hobby, probably too numerous to count, where many people have felt they could positively authenticate a card or not, concerning its allegedly original, unaltered condition, based on the appearance of the card to the naked eye, and that they, including myself on several unfortunate occasions, have been wrong (this card hardly stands alone in this regard); and

(4) magnification has been of invaluable assistance to both dealers and collectors alike, as well, I would hope, to graders, in this regard, when it is coupled with a little knowledge.

Now, these truths should be self-evident, rather than a stimulus for vitriol and venom, and I wasn't the one who initiated any posts that were meant or intended to be insulting in the course of this discussion. I'm well aware of the history of this card, and have even read Michael O'Keeffe's discussion of it in his book, "The Card" (highly recommended reading on this as well as other subjects, by the way). To the above 4 points, I would add a 5th:

(5) What did this "newbie" grading service actually do in the way of examining the card to reach the conclusion they did?

I've always wanted to have as much information regarding this cherished hobby as I could lay my hands on, and this occasion is simply no different!

Best regards to all those other dedicated collectors out there, who know we hold the very history of the game itself in our hands as guardians/custodians for future generations,

Larry

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Here's what I find curious, and I'm a curious guy by nature. When I see something that makes absolutely no sense, I question it.

Here's this new grading company called ACA that really none of us has heard of. They're trying to get into grading and authenticating baseball cards, a very crowded field, and one in which it is not easy to grab a market share. And in a situation like that a company feels they need to do something to draw attention to themselves. So what do they do- they take a card that is arguably the best known counterfeit in the hobby, and authenticate it. Can somebody explain this business model?

I know someone is going to say it brought them publicity, but that's like a doctor building his medical practice by infecting all his patients with bubonic plague. Sure, it will get him in the newspapers, but it won't build his practice. Like I said, this is a mystery. You can't build a business this way.

I actually responded to that in this thread, but it was ignored. I assumed that the readers felt my thoughts were irrelevant in that regard, but I still think they are legit.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by steve B

There's at least one uncataloged major difference, plus what I think is a new major variety that hasn't really caught on. ...
Steve B

Examples please. If you are talking about the oddities that we have known about for decades, I refer you back to the rarity of the Wagner and the infinitesimally small odds of such a thing popping up for that particular card.

Personally, I think it would be hilarious (and sad at the same time), if this idea caught on. Within a couple of years we might see as many (or more) of these 'uncatalogued' versions of the T206 Wagner as we currently have actual examples of the real thing.

At some point, someone will figure out a computerized way of applying ink to cardboard to simulate t206-type lithography; e.g - you insert the card in a 'scanner' of some sort, it is analyzed by a computer and proper ink jets are activated to create an exact dot pattern. Seriously, it will happen.

[barrysloate]

Scott- I went back and saw that you did indeed comment about this on post #34. But that was two weeks ago. My short term memory doesn't go that far back. Too much you know what.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Scott- I went back and saw that you did indeed comment about this on post #34. But that was two weeks ago. My short term memory doesn't go that far back. Too much you know what.

It's okay Barry. I should have just laughed when I initially opened this thread, and moved on.

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

First of all, read my posts. I have never taken a postion with regard to this card's authenticity. What I have said is the following:

(1) I would like more information with regard to the actual printing characteristics of the card;

(2) That the more actual information one has, the better one's decisions tend to be;

Larry, I understand your sentiments. BUT there is no discussions or decisions to be made by "anyone" about the validity of this card, or positions to be taken. Maybe the other counterfeits you had previously referred to. There is one thing we know about this particular card in question, and this is a POWER FACT, so take note... IT IS FAKE!!!! No questions asked or needed. I understand skepticism, but c'mon. It's glaringly obvious to the naked eye. And no matter how many times these clowns try to pull on people's heart-strings by crying racism, this card was not, nor ever will be a REAL t206 Honus Wagner, an unreleased version, or anything even remotely related to the American Tobacco Company.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by novakjr

Larry, I understand your sentiments. BUT there is no discussions or decisions to be made by "anyone" about the validity of this card, or positions to be taken. Maybe the other counterfeits you had previously referred to. There is one thing we know about this particular card in question, and this is a POWER FACT, so take note... IT IS FAKE!!!! No questions asked or needed. I understand skepticism, but c'mon. It's glaringly obvious to the naked eye. And no matter how many times these clowns try to pull on people's heart-strings by crying racism, this card was not, nor ever will be a REAL t206 Honus Wagner, an unreleased version, or anything even remotely related to the American Tobacco Company.

Yes, but what about the uncatalogued versions that actually say 'reprint' on them? Couldn't they have been released later in 1909, and the word 'reprint' used to differentiate them from the earlier releases? Don't you need to know more about their characteristics before deciding they are modern?

And please - what better way to scam people than by posing as nuns? I'm from the south, so I completely understand how I am automatically guilty of racism, any time it fits the needs of someone who I disagree with, due to the acts of my g-g-g-g-grandfather. Plus, I have always trusted nuns - sue me.

As far as the new Canadian slabbing company goes, I think it's great that the Cincinnati guys finally found a company they could trust to handle their prized card. I think this goes along with all of their other acts of altruism - how could you not trust two guys who are willing to give a start-up company their first big break?

[steve B]

The known uncataloged variety is Wilson with a yellow or orange sky and a very different red sunset. Fairly major and once you have them both in hand it's easy to see it's not fading or a print problem. Both are common.
The major one was discussed here within the last year or so very sceptically, and has since been graded by PSA. I'm deliberately avoiding that one because it's a bit under the radar and I'm hoping to find one before it gets expensive.

The Wagners I have pictures of show probably 3 distinct very minor differences that I can see from the small pictures I have. I know I'll never own even one, but the differences are there.

Steve B

Originally Posted by Runscott

Examples please. If you are talking about the oddities that we have known about for decades, I refer you back to the rarity of the Wagner and the infinitesimally small odds of such a thing popping up for that particular card.

Personally, I think it would be hilarious (and sad at the same time), if this idea caught on. Within a couple of years we might see as many (or more) of these 'uncatalogued' versions of the T206 Wagner as we currently have actual examples of the real thing.

At some point, someone will figure out a computerized way of applying ink to cardboard to simulate t206-type lithography; e.g - you insert the card in a 'scanner' of some sort, it is analyzed by a computer and proper ink jets are activated to create an exact dot pattern. Seriously, it will happen.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by steve B

The known uncataloged variety is Wilson with a yellow or orange sky and a very different red sunset. Fairly major and once you have them both in hand it's easy to see it's not fading or a print problem. Both are common.
The major one was discussed here within the last year or so very sceptically, and has since been graded by PSA. I'm deliberately avoiding that one because it's a bit under the radar and I'm hoping to find one before it gets expensive.

The Wagners I have pictures of show probably 3 distinct very minor differences that I can see from the small pictures I have. I know I'll never own even one, but the differences are there.

Steve B

Steve, you have me a bit baffled. So, in the few photo examples of real t206 Wagners that you have seen, you have spotted at least 3 distinct differences, yet you can't tell the Cincinnati one is a fake?

I'll leave others to discuss this with you, as I have nothing further to add that could help you with this.

[howard38]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

First of all, read my posts. I have never taken a postion with regard to this card's authencity. What I have said is the following:

(1) I would like more information with regard to the actual printing characteristics of the card;

(2) That the more actual information one has, the better one's decisions tend to be;

(3) That there have been occasions during my multiple decade involvement with this hobby, probably too numerous to count, where many people have felt they could positively authenticate a card or not, concerning its allegedly original, unaltered condition, based on the appearance of the card to the naked eye, and that they, including myself on several unfortunate occasions, have been wrong (this card hardly stands alone in this regard); and

(4) magnification has been of invaluable assistance to both dealers and collectors alike, as well, I would hope, to graders, in this regard, when it is coupled with a little knowledge.

Now, these truths should be self-evident, rather than a stimulus for vitriol and venom, and I wasn't the one who initiated any posts that were meant or intended to be insulting in the course of this discussion. I'm well aware of the history of this card, and have even read Michael O'Keeffe's discussion of it in his book, "The Card" (highly recommended reading on this as well as other subjects, by the way). To the above 4 points, I would add a 5th:

(5) What did this "newbie" grading service actually do in the way of examining the card to reach the conclusion they did?

I've always wanted to have as much information regarding this cherished hobby as I could lay my hands on, and this occasion is simply no different!

Best regards to all those other dedicated collectors out there, who know we hold the very history of the game itself in our hands as guardians/custodians for future generations,

Larry

You left out the part where you cited racism (prejudice). You ought not be surprised at any reaction when you bring up such a subject.

[steve B]

Woah! My earlier post listed about 5 things that made me certain it IS a fake!

Maybe the section I had about how those things logically made the chances of it being real in any way incredibly small was confusing?

I do not think it's real.
I will admit a very tiny chance that I'm wrong.
I'm just as positive that If I were holding it that chance would become 0%

Steve B

Originally Posted by Runscott

Steve, you have me a bit baffled. So, in the few photo examples of real t206 Wagners that you have seen, you have spotted at least 3 distinct differences, yet you can't tell the Cincinnati one is a fake?

I'll leave others to discuss this with you, as I have nothing further to add that could help you with this.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by steve B

The known uncataloged variety is Wilson with a yellow or orange sky and a very different red sunset. Fairly major and once you have them both in hand it's easy to see it's not fading or a print problem. Both are common.

Steve, I've never been quite sure what to make of this particular type of variation - you will find the multi-colored 'indistinct' separation differences in many, many litho cards. Wilson does kind of stand out in that there are two that are fairly distinct, but I have seen a few 'tweeners'. I think it's likely that on this type of 'variety', it's a case of having two areas on the 'red-orange' part of the plate that were easier to separate (not enough ink on one portion) than in most backgrounds like this. So basically, if it wasn't intentional, I don't consider it an uncatalogued 'variety' - it's related to a problem with the printing process and while interesting, not an error or variety.

Obviously, we have seen examples in other cards where the background colors are stunning, whereas other examples of the same card are less exciting. Some of the printers must have realized that even though they had a formulaic approach to producing these, sometimes the colors didn't come out right. If it was obvious, and the run didn't look good, it ended up in the scrap pile. If it looked good, it was probably kept. Obviously, the Wilson cards with various amounts of red below the orange all looked 'right', so no need to scrap.

Certainly the differences between a real card and a reprint are something else altogether. If it was easy (or even possible) to make a 'reprint' that could slip by the eyes of not only the doufusses who played the race card in their article, but ALSO by the eyes of real t206 collectors on this board, we'd have slabbed forgeries all over the place.

Okay, now I really have said all I have to say about this

[steve B]

The Wilson is a real puzzler. There are 2 basic types that seem very different, with lots of variance between them.

Even in the late 1970's Litho ink colors were mixed by hand. So a simple color difference is usually just a matter of who did the mixing that day.

Producing an exact copy fake would be nearly impossible. In theory It could be done, but the expense and technical skills required would be prohibitive.

I have some defenite ideas about some of the small differences, I'd been planning on posting about it anyway.

But in a different thread that doesn't involve reprints

Steve B

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Runscott

At some point, someone will figure out a computerized way of applying ink to cardboard to simulate t206-type lithography; e.g - you insert the card in a 'scanner' of some sort, it is analyzed by a computer and proper ink jets are activated to create an exact dot pattern. Seriously, it will happen.

Actually I agree with that, and have felt that way for years. A year or two ago there was a detailed thread that discussed this very issue. What I have been told by people with expertise in that sort of thing is that at the moment, if it could be done, the cost to duplicate a lithographic card so well such as to pass scrutiny in all respects would at minimum be multiples of 5 figures, very possibly going well into 6 figures. But I fear that day may be coming, or at least a day where only the most sophisticated equipment and testing, coupled with the most sophisticated knowledge, will be able to detect it.

[barrysloate]

Even if the cost went into six figures, a single high grade Wagner would foot the whole bill. Everything after that would be profit. What would happen to the hobby if such a scenario were realized?

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Even if the cost went into six figures, a single high grade Wagner would foot the whole bill. Everything after that would be profit. What would happen to the hobby if such a scenario were realized?

Clearly the concern you express is correct, and it is scary. The implication, which we are already starting to see with respect to alterations, is that without provenance, "new find" Wagners may hold little value. For example, cards with a strong pedigree (e.g., Lionel Carter collection) will sell for premiums, which in time may become greater and greater.

[Vintagedegu]

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