If you were starting a team today......

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by KCRfan1

The Yankee teams, back in the day, were loaded with talent. Aaron and Williams didn't have the luxury that Mantle had in that respect if we're looking only at championships. Put Aaron or Williams on those same Yankee teams that Mantle played on, and both players bring home the hardware too.

Extremely doubtful.
The Yankees were a powerhouse first and foremost BECAUSE of Mantle.
And are you honestly going to say Aaron or Williams were as clutch??

[egri]

The Yankees had pitching depth that far exceeded the Red Sox, and Yankee management integrated the team before Tom Yawkey did. He had the first shot at Willie Mays and Ernie Banks, and passed on both.

[Touch'EmAll]

Making the assumption the careers are what they are - cannot change, just that they are all rookies at same time.

In post-season play, Hank Aaron easily tops them all: Mays BA .247, SLG .337, OPS .660 (really poor) - Mantle BA .257, SLG .535, OPS .908 - Hank Aaron BA .362, SLG .710, OPS 1.116 (now you're talkin'!)

From year #1 to year #last = Hank Aaron, bingo!

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

Making the assumption the careers are what they are - cannot change, just that they are all rookies at same time.

In post-season play, Hank Aaron easily tops them all: Mays BA .247, SLG .337, OPS .660 (really poor) - Mantle BA .257, SLG .535, OPS .908 - Hank Aaron BA .362, SLG .710, OPS 1.116 (now you're talkin'!)

From year #1 to year #last = Hank Aaron, bingo!

Who are you kidding ! ?

How about making a fair comparison ? ?

Aaron was only in two World Series (1957 & 1958)
Totals.... BA= .362, HR= 3, RBI = 9, SLG = .786 (1957) and .407 (1958)

Compare that with the 1952 and 1960 World Series totals...…
Mantle BA = .355, HR = 5, RBI = 13, SLG = .655 (1952) and .800 (1960)

Hey guy
I am fortunate (and old enough) to having seen all these stars play since 1947.
Unless you have, too, there is no way you can actually appreciate any of them.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Touch'EmAll]

Not kidding anyone, simply looked at the stats. Aaron had 3 post season appearances - in 1969 NLCS played 3 games, had 14 At Bats and posted really good numbers. Sorry the overall sample size is small compared to Mantle, but what can you do about that? Mantle probably had better overall teams to help get to more post season appearances.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

Not kidding anyone, simply looked at the stats. Aaron had 3 post season appearances - in 1969 NLCS played 3 games, had 14 At Bats and posted really good numbers. Sorry the overall sample size is small compared to Mantle, but what can you do about that? Mantle probably had better overall teams to help get to more post season appearances.

With all due respect.....all I am saying is, if you are going to compare stats you must compare World Series performances. And, Aaron played in only two W.S.
As we all know, there were no League Play-off series in Mantle's timeframe.

So, I will reprise the numbers which show only World Series stats for comparison of Aaron and Mantle. Mantle wins this contest in every category except forBA.

Originally Posted by tedzan

Aaron was only in two World Series (1957 & 1958)
Totals.... BA= .362, HR= 3, RBI = 9, SLG = .786 (1957) and .407 (1958)

Compare that with the 1952 and 1960 World Series totals...…
Mantle BA = .355, HR = 5, RBI = 13, SLG = .655 (1952) and .800 (1960)

You favor Aaron, I favor Mantle, and that's fine with me. But, my question to you is if Aaron was so great, why wasn't he more of a force in having the Braves
win more Championships ? They certainly had some great players back then (Mathews, Adcock, Crandall, Spahn, Burdette, Buhl, etc., etc.).


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Touch'EmAll]

A team has many players, one of which may be a superstar. Sure, it helps a lot for the superstar to put up big numbers. But the rest of the big bunch counts for a whole lot more on a team trying to win rings. If I were to analyze it, I would start with the pitching, top to bottom, of Mantle's Yankees vs. Aaron, Mays, etc. teams. Pitching is a big factor if a team is going to go far. The Yankees "gelled" as a great team together, all components worked, Mantle was recognized as top dog, but the supporting cast was darn good and clutch overall.

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Who are you kidding ! ?

How about making a fair comparison ? ?

Aaron was only in two World Series (1957 & 1958)
Totals.... BA= .362, HR= 3, RBI = 9, SLG = .786 (1957) and .407 (1958)

Compare that with the 1952 and 1960 World Series totals...…
Mantle BA = .355, HR = 5, RBI = 13, SLG = .655 (1952) and .800 (1960)

Hey guy
I am fortunate (and old enough) to having seen all these stars play since 1947.
Unless you have, too, there is no way you can actually appreciate any of them.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Ted-Take the rose colored glasses off. If you want to cherry pick years I'll focus on 1961-63.

[Touch'EmAll]

My dad grew up in Upstate New York, said many times Billy Martin was clutch and stepped it up in postseason.

Regular season: BA .257, SLG. .369, OPS .669
Post Season: BA .333, SLG. .566, OPS .937

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

Extremely doubtful.
The Yankees were a powerhouse first and foremost BECAUSE of Mantle.
And are you honestly going to say Aaron or Williams were as clutch??

If Mantle was THE reason the Yankees won so many pennants, then why did he only win 1/3 of the Yankee MVP awards during the 1951-1964 period?

Yankee MVPs:

1951 AL Yogi Berra
1954 AL Yogi Berra
1955 AL Yogi Berra
1956 AL Mickey Mantle
1957 AL Mickey Mantle
1960 AL Roger Maris
1961 AL Roger Maris
1962 AL Mickey Mantle
1963 AL Elston Howard

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by Mark17

If Mantle was THE reason the Yankees won so many pennants, then why did he only win 1/3 of the Yankee MVP awards during the 1951-1964 period?

Yankee MVPs:

1951 AL Yogi Berra
1954 AL Yogi Berra
1955 AL Yogi Berra
1956 AL Mickey Mantle
1957 AL Mickey Mantle
1960 AL Roger Maris
1961 AL Roger Maris
1962 AL Mickey Mantle
1963 AL Elston Howard

If this had any realistic bearing.... why aren't Maris, Berra or Howard considered better players than Mantle??? NO ONE being honest would even consider that, so this is meaningless. There have been discussions on here whether Maris is even HOF material, with the majority feeling he isn't (I think he is), so what relevance are MVP awards in the big picture?
When the things that are most important are considered, his World Series records and total Fall Classic victories... Mantle is tops.

[oldjudge]

I was an avid Yankee fan growing up in the Bronx. The guys I thought of as clutch players were Berra and Skowron, not Mantle. Williams or Aaron could have absolutely won as many championships or more if they were on the Yankees instead of Mantle.

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

I was an avid Yankee fan growing up in the Bronx. The guys I thought of as clutch players were Berra and Skowron, not Mantle. Williams or Aaron could have absolutely won as many championships or more if they were on the Yankees instead of Mantle.

Its funny that Aaron and Williams are based on "what ifs" as opposed to actual facts. If they could take teams to World Series championships like Mantle did... they would have. There would be no need for conjecture and postulation.
Could've, should've, would've....

If Ted's opinions are through rose coloured glasses, with all due respect, yours are based on pure assumption.

[egri]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

Its funny that Aaron and Williams are based on "what ifs" as opposed to actual facts. If they could take teams to World Series championships like Mantle did... they would have. There would be no need for conjecture and postulation.
Could've, should've, would've....

If Ted's opinions are through rose coloured glasses, with all due respect, yours are based on pure assumption.

The Red Sox didn’t have any pitching, and I don’t see how that is the fault of their left fielder. The one year they did, they won 104 games and the pennant, as Williams won his first MVP. When Williams came up, their best pitcher was 39 year old Lefty Grove. After the war, once Ferriss and Hughson came up lame, they were carried by Mel Parnell (who himself was injured from 1952 onward) and Ellis Kinder, who didn’t break out until he was 35. Williams was a big part of the 1950 offense that scored 1,000 runs (he had 28 HRs in 89 games despite an elbow injury at the ASG that nagged him for the rest of his career). But that team finished in third, because they had one pitcher with an ERA below 4.00.

[jakebeckleyoldeagleeye]

Gehrig-RBI machine.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

If this had any realistic bearing.... why aren't Maris, Berra or Howard considered better players than Mantle??? NO ONE being honest would even consider that, so this is meaningless. There have been discussions on here whether Maris is even HOF material, with the majority feeling he isn't (I think he is), so what relevance are MVP awards in the big picture?
When the things that are most important are considered, his World Series records and total Fall Classic victories... Mantle is tops.

I am not saying Mantle wasn't the overall best player on his team. Just like Mays was the best on the Giants, Aaron on the Braves, Clemente on the Pirates, and Williams on the Red Sox.

What I AM saying is that 6 times out of 9, when the sportswriters voted on who was the single Yankee most responsible for them winning the pennant during that given year, they named one of Mickey's teammates instead of him.

Point is, he was on a great team surrounded by all sorts of talent, so you can't give him all the credit for his many post-season opportunities. In 1962, Mantle played only 123 games, and in 1963 he played in only 65 games, but both years the Yankees won the pennant. In other words, they could win even with Mantle not in the lineup on a regular basis.

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I am not saying Mantle wasn't the overall best player on his team. Just like Mays was the best on the Giants, Aaron on the Braves, Clemente on the Pirates, and Williams on the Red Sox.

What I AM saying is that 6 times out of 9, when the sportswriters voted on who was the single Yankee most responsible for them winning the pennant during that given year, they named one of Mickey's teammates instead of him.

Point is, he was on a great team surrounded by all sorts of talent, so you can't give him all the credit for his many post-season opportunities. In 1962, Mantle played only 123 games, and in 1963 he played in only 65 games, but both years the Yankees won the pennant. In other words, they could win even with Mantle not in the lineup on a regular basis.

Yeah, and the Red Sox, Braves and Giants couldn't win with Williams, Aaron or Mays.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

Yeah, and the Red Sox, Braves and Giants couldn't win with Williams, Aaron or Mays.

By your logic, Billy Martin was a better player than Ernie Banks.

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by Mark17

By your logic, Billy Martin was a better player than Ernie Banks.

No, that's your logic.
Again, ad nauseam, IF Williams, Aaron and Mays could've taken teams to World Series championships like Mantle did... They would have. It's simple.

[brian1961]

Mickey Mantle----always! ----Brian Powell

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

Extremely doubtful.
The Yankees were a powerhouse first and foremost BECAUSE of Mantle.
And are you honestly going to say Aaron or Williams were as clutch??

Williams did poorly in his one World Series. I think he was an amazing player, but Id have to accept that he wasn't exactly "clutch" at times.


Mantle had a few good series, and a number of really poor ones. 1961, 62, 63 he batted under .200 and a few of the earlier ones weren't great either. Overall, he batted 40 points under his career average in the series.

That's not exacly "clutch" either.


Aaron in the WS batted 59 points above his lifetime average, and to eliminate the complaint that the lifetime average is reduced by the later part of his career, in 57 he was .393, 71 points above his average that year. in 58, .333 was only 7 points above that years average.


So yes Aaron was more clutch than Mantle.

[egri]

Originally Posted by steve B

Williams did poorly in his one World Series. I think he was an amazing player, but Id have to accept that he wasn't exactly "clutch" at times.

He was playing injured; the week before the series started, he was hit in the elbow during an exhibition game. Besides, he crash landed a jet that the North Koreans put 250 holes in and walked away from it. I’d say that is far more “clutch” than anything that has ever happened on a ball field.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by egri

He was playing injured; the week before the series started, he was hit in the elbow during an exhibition game. Besides, he crash landed a jet that the North Koreans put 250 holes in and walked away from it. I’d say that is far more “clutch” than anything that has ever happened on a ball field.

I knew about the plane, not about the injury.


Williams was certainly among the greatest. And did have a number of clutch moments. Batting for the title instead of sitting, Hr in his last AB....

[clydepepper]

Well, if there was ever a player (and there was!) that could get from home plate to first base in 3.1 seconds and also hit a homer 565 feet, that would be the guy.


If not him, I'd go with the greatest athlete ever to play MLB, a healthy Bo Jackson.

Those two, when healthy, were the most exciting players ever IMO.

=

[steve B]

Since the original question was about who we'd pick starting a team today.

I'd go with Trout.

I have doubts about Willie and Mickey standing up to the sort of access and scrutiny the players today have to deal with. Aaron was maybe just a bit too reserved, but would be in the running. Griffey maybe just a tiny bit behind.


A big piece of todays game like it or not is PR and image, and so far Trout has got it just about right.

[brian1961]

We can splice and crunch numbers on and on about how a player did in a season, and especially a World Series. It's important, but it will not likely change anyone's mind about how they feel about how great or crummy their hero was at a given time.

You bring up Ted Williams getting hit by a pitch in a stupid exhibition game to keep the Sox sharp, while an NL playoff was being fought. That was most unfortunate, since it would be his only World Series. Then again, in '48-'49 Ted had terrific years, but failed at the crucial last game / games, respectively.

Stan Musial did not tear up the pea patch in the Series; neither did Ty Cobb or Jackie Robinson.

Mickey, as you said, had some sour World Series performances. He was injured in '55 and '61 going into the World Series. He injured himself playing golf with Tom Sturdevant in '57, when he was at his baseball peak. Mick hurt his shin badly during that golf match; I won't go into a lot of details, but Sturdevant's high-pitched laugh afterwards made Mick lose his temper on a branch in his way. The branch was actually dead, and swinging his putter at it with all his might and anger, the putter went clean through the branch and into his shin. OUCH times ten to the third power! Then, a month and a half later in World Series game 1 I believe, Red Schoendienst fell on Mickey's shoulder in a close play at second. The pain from that hit was horrible, and Mickey said as a result, he was in pain until the beginning of 1961.

Yep, Mickey had a lot of great-to-good players around him during his hey day, as did Babe and Lou. Isn't that just too bad, for you who dislike him. Or you, who constantly shame him for not taking better care of himself, even though the man literally thought he'd only live to be as old as his dad that died at 39.

I go back to what former teammate Hank Bauer said, that the man did awfully good even with all the injuries he had. He was the man. He was the big guy. He was the warrior to be feared. Almost all eyes were on Mickey Mantle at the ball game.

You're right about Tom Tresh--he was the only Yank who got to Sandy Koufax in game 1 of the '63 Series. He got to Gibby in '64, and he was the hero of '62 indeed! 'Course, none of the Yanks did well at the bat in '63, though Mr. Koufax threw one that Mickey liked in game 4 that he crushed into Chavez Ravine.

In the end, Mickey won a whole lot of bling, and he earned them all, whether carrying the Bombers to get to the big show, or coming up with the big play, or a crucial hit to break the opposing teams' backs. Which, he did so again, and again, and again, and again, and .....

Furthermore, HE MADE HIMSELF PLAY HURT MANY GAMES IN WHICH HE SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN IN THE LINE-UP.

Why would he do that? I read about this. I teared up good. 'Cause he knew there'd be a bunch of kids in the stands that were attending what might be their only game of the season to see the Yanks. And, they wanted to see one player more than any other----Mickey Mantle. Mickey did not want to disappoint a kid, and let him down. Regardless, he played. He had the trainer wrap him up like a mummy as he had to do for a decade or more, and played anyway, and gave it his best anyway. Then, when number 7 walked out of the dugout with a bat to go to the on-deck circle, everybody got excited. The excitement and anticipation grew and grew, and then, when he stepped in the batter's box, just about everybody's eyes were glued on Mickey Mantle. What was he going to do?

In a few days, another anniversary will go by of a significant event that occurred April 17, 1953 at Griffith Stadium in Washington, DC. Up in the stands were a father and his 20-year-old-son, plus just a few thousand other fans. Guess the home-town Washington Senator fans figured the Yanks would beat their team, and they guessed right.

But they missed it. Boy, did they ever miss it---Mickey slugging a Chuck Stobbs fastball 565 feet!!!! Made a huge impression on every player, fan, and pressman who was there, including the young man and his dad. That young guy thought an awful lot of Mickey, and one day became famous himself, as a country and western singer and guitar player---Roy Clark. The two later connected, and Mickey had asked Roy to play his signature song at his funeral, "Yesterday When I Was Young".

Mickey Mantle must be special to me. I put a 3-card spread of him on the cover of my E-book on a CD, Never Cheaper By the Dozen.

Yep, I'll take Mickey Mantle----EVERY TIME!!! ---- Brian Powell

[TUM301]

Out of all the players I`ve ever seen, let`s say 1966 and on, would start my team with Johnny Bench. From the original list toss up.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by steve B

Williams did poorly in his one World Series. I think he was an amazing player, but Id have to accept that he wasn't exactly "clutch" at times.

1941 All Star Game. Two out, two on, down by a run, bottom of the ninth. Not only does Williams end the game with a home run, he absolutely crushes it off the facing of the upper deck in Detroit.

1941 September 28. With a chance to sit out the double-header and finish with a .400 average (which hasn't been done in the 77 years since,) Ted earns it, going 4-5 in the first game and 2-3 in the second game to finish at .406.

1960, also September 28, in his final at-bat, Ted does what he so very much wanted to do - he ends his career with a home run.

Williams was injured in the 1946 Series, but too much of a man to alibi about it. It isn't fair to say that because he had one poor Series he wasn't "clutch."