Dominos, Scanlon and Ebay Id’s

[nolemmings]

I figure one way to get more responses is to present multiple seemingly unrelated questions First, did anyone here bid on the domino disks set broken and sold by davidbvintage last night? There were some real nice ones there, although PSA grades them inconsistently. I won this Moran Cubs disk, one of the seven players with variations.

One guy won a boatload of these, and I noticed that when I looked at the winning bidder, his scrambled name was always different from one auction to the next, even though they just ended minutes apart. I get the scrambling part in general, but has Ebay been doing this immediate differentiation for awhile? I hadn’t noticed and don’t really care, but wondered why the same high feedback number was tagged to so many different bidder “names” for what was obviously the same person.

Also, I won the Scanlon Phillies disk, another of the variations, and noticed in my research that Baseball Reference and several other sources call him Scanlan. His faux signature on T205 is ambiguous and the card back calls him Scanlan (so too T202). But when I searched him in Sporting Life under Scanlon I got plenty of hits (didn’t try “Scanlan”), and both T207 and the p2 pins use Scanlon. Anyone here know which is correct? I’m leaning toward Scanlon, since the Sporting Life had beat writers and I would think they would not regularly get it wrong.

Finally, just a general call for info on the Px7 disks–feel free to show them if you got ‘em. FWIW, the Moran disk has always vexed me. I am convinced it is the main or only reason any guide has attributed the set to having originated in 1909, the theory being that Moran played for Chicago in 1909 and Philadelphia in 1910. However, he started 1910 with the Cubs and rode the pine for the first few games of the season, joining Philly in May, so the disks could have been and in my view were produced after 1909.

[rsst206]

Hi Todd,
I dont collect these but picked up a large group many years ago.
but i dont see both Chases listed. When i go to PSA registry or website dedicated to discs only see front view version. Any info would be greatly appreciated. If you know of any tough or HOF in the set.

thanks Ron

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

I hadn’t noticed and don’t really care, but wondered why the same high feedback number was tagged to so many different bidder “names” for what was obviously the same person.

Some would opine it's to prevent the BlowOut Detective Agency from outing more card fraudsters. Whatever reason, it's not to make it easier to determine shill bidding. Obfuscation over time only increases from eBay, I guess. It's like entropy.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by rsst206

Hi Todd,
I dont collect these but picked up a large group many years ago.
but i dont see both Chases listed. When i go to PSA registry or website dedicated to discs only see front view version. Any info would be greatly appreciated. If you know of any tough or HOF in the set.

thanks Ron

Hi Ron,

I am neither an expert nor a novice on these disks, and I know of at least one member here who has collected them extensively–maybe he could chime in. They are a bit of a side project for me, although I do believe the two I just won are among the most difficult for those pursuing a basic set.

By basic set I mean one of 129 subjects plus the seven variations. Each subject can be found with two poses, and most of the time the differences are rather subtle, as can be seen with your Bender examples. There is usually a full-face and thin-face difference for each player, although there are some more noticeable pose changes, Cinci and ChiSox players usually appear in both light and dark unis, and then there is your Chase, who is one of the few with a very noticeable pose difference (Lajoie is another). Each disk can be found in three different colors, and those sporting the full-face pose can be found in brown/purple also. Thus some might consider a master set to include at least all poses, or, gulp, all poses in all colors. Incidentally, the poses are aligned with the same shots used for the Sweet Caporal p2 pins, and those “large letter” pin variations match up with the second pose of the px7 disks.

The full-face versions of Px7 seem to have been printed first, although the Moran I just won bucks that notion, and they also appear to be more plentiful. The number pairings for the dominos on back might appear to be random, but if you follow these for awhile you’ll see that each player pose is associated with at most three different combinations, and duplicates of the same pose/number are found with such frequency that it’s unlikely all or even many of the 42 possible combinations were used for each subject. Still, if you add number combinations to your "master set", you are talking about a grouping into the thousands.

As for scarcity, I believe that generally the thin-face poses are harder to find–at least that can be said for the seven player variations. But since the pop reports don’t distinguish between player poses (other than the variations, which have different team affiliations or a spelling change), it is tough to quantify or draw many inferences–at least it is for me.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Some would opine it's to prevent the BlowOut Detective Agency from outing more card fraudsters. Whatever reason, it's not to make it easier to determine shill bidding. Obfuscation over time only increases from eBay, I guess. It's like entropy.

I think you're on the right track.

[rsst206]

Thank you Todd

[Vintagecatcher]

What surprised me the most regarding this group of PX7 Domino Discs was how pristine some of the discs rims were. Don't recall ever seeing ones that shiny before. I pick them up from time to time, but at much lower prices then this group was selling for in David's recent auction.

Patrick

[docpatlv]

Hi Todd,

I agree with you that the (what I refer to as Type 2 discs - usually smaller head and crisper image) are more difficult to find. Although I have picked up around 10 +/- this year, my set is kind of on the back burner for now as my collecting interests seem to change all the time. I won’t mention what I’ve recently been collecting, let’s just say I’m diversifying my portfolio

I did pick up a rare 2 player disc earlier this year, but my attempts to pick up a nice miscut have come in vain.

In case you’re interested, here’s a link to my discs.

https://imageevent.com/docpatlv/190912px7dominodisc

If passcode needed, it’s: adc

[docpatlv]

Also Todd,

Over the years I had been trying to capture images for each disc known. I haven't really done so for the last few years, but for a few players, I thought that there might possibly be 3 poses. After a recent pickup on the BST on McIntyre, I'm still not sure, but I'm leaning towards no. What do you think?

[nolemmings]

Thanks Mike, I will make good use of your scans. As of about ten days ago I decided to start cataloging all combinations, so I’m hoping people will provide me with scans. I’m even trying to list all front-back numeric combinations, so any scans of both sides would be great. I forgot to mention to those unfamiliar with these disks that color wise, fronts and backs are the same for red, green and blue examples, but those with a Brown/Purple front never have that color on the back; instead, they can have any of the other three colors. Even more of a challenge for the “Master set” collector, as one player can have a brown front with different color backs.

I agree that the McIntyre disks you showed do not reflect three different poses. As sometimes happens with these and as you know, the images can be out of register a little and give the appearance that a face is looking a bit different. Your McIntyre shows a silhouette outline where the image was intended, and I think if it hit the mark it would match up with your other one.

I agree that two poses exist for all subjects, although I have noticed a subtle difference in some thin-faced Cobbs. By the way for those who did not know, the set registry and many collections consider the Cobb to have a variation because it comes with or without a “D” on his cap. This is not one of the seven variations I referenced earlier. The two Cobbs do in fact have different cap appearances, but this can be said of many other player disks too. Basically, the difference in the two Cobbs is that one has the fuller face than the other, just as is true of nearly all the other subjects. It is simply easier to note the cap emblem or lack of same in case you only have one disk at hand and are unsure how “full” his face looks. Again, however, the same can be said for several others in the set; so if you have, say, the Rowan “no C on cap” disk, you merely have the thin face version, rather than some newly discovered variation.

[ValKehl]

Todd, I've had these 4 PX7 Domino Discs of WaJo for many years, blindly assuming all along that I had a master set of WaJo's discs, until I just read the fascinating info you posted in this thread. Now, is my understanding correct that master set of WaJo's discs is 12 discs - 6 full face & 6 thin face, with each of the 6 consisting of these front/back color combinations: red/red, green/green, blue/blue, brown/red, brown/green & brown/blue - if one doesn't include the different domino combinations on the backs of the discs?

[nolemmings]

Hi Val, hope you're well. You're right about the full-face having six variations (excluding numeric domino combos), but brown fronts are only found on the full-face poses. Thus there are only three thin-face variations: green/green; red/red and blue/blue, for a total of nine. Nice disks BTW.

[Touch'EmAll]

The Domino Discs are very cool. I own several PSA graded copies for many years and see a little more inconsistency with the grades compared to regular cards. When we had breakout times for cards to shoot up in value like Candy cards, then T206's, I always wait for these more obscure items to also go up in price, but alas, not. Same goes for Pins and S74 silks - one would think their prices go up as well, but they seem stagnant for many years now despite being more scarce than card counterparts. Unique and interesting items nonetheless. When i saw the recent ebay auctions for high grade HOFers, I thought they would garner some good bids, but barely made it out the door with opening bids. My guess is demand far exceeds supply in importance for upward value.

[Touch'EmAll]

Here are a few.

[ValKehl]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Hi Val, hope you're well. You're right about the full-face having six variations (excluding numeric domino combos), but brown fronts are only found on the full-face poses. Thus there are only three thin-face variations: green/green; red/red and blue/blue, for a total of nine. Nice disks BTW.

Thanks, Todd! Good to know that I only have 5 more to find!

[phlflyer1]

Hi Todd,

I apologize for the off center scans but here are some more for you.

[detroitbaseball]

Looks like his last name in both variations is spelled incorrectly.

The "Scanlon" listed as Philadelphia shows him wearing a Brooklyn hat.

It looks like they were brothers. Both were born in Syracuse, New York.

Doc Scanlan - 1909 Brooklyn Superbas

https://www.mlb.com/player/doc-scanlan-121744

https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...canldo01.shtml

Frank Scanlan - 1909 Philadelphia Phillies

Played 6 games in 1909.

https://www.mlb.com/player/frank-scanlan-121740

https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...canlfr01.shtml

[nolemmings]

Thanks for the info Kevin. I was unaware Doc had a brother, much less one that pitched for Philly during the relevant time. Still, I’m pretty certain the two disks both depict Doc, especially given that he is donning a Brooklyn cap. I also see that his T207 and T202 cards note that he was traded to Philly before the 1912 season, which was true. Interestingly, the T202 must have been printed, front at least, before the trade, because Doc is still shown on the Superbas, wearing their gear and alongside fellow Brooklyner Dahlen.

As for the spelling, I searched Sporting Life using Scanlan and only got about a half dozen hits for 1911, two of which were for minor leaguers by that name. Two others listed him in box scores, another in April noted his contract situation with Brooklyn and the last, in November, mentioned him by each spelling in the same article. I know Baseball Reference calls him Scanlan, but the Sporting Life had far more search hits for “Scanlon” when referencing Doc. Also and as stated, the T207 and P2 pins use Scanlon, so I think the disk shows the correct, or at least preferred spelling. I’m open to contrary arguments however.

Patrick, I did not notice an unusual number of shiny rims in the last round of auctions from David Bryan, although I didn’t scrutinize many of the more costly ones for long. And yes, they sure weren’t cheap. Here is my Scanlon, which has the normal (to me anyway), duller looking rim (compare to Moran in initial post):


Scott, wow, thanks a lot for the many scans. I’m sure I will be adding several of those to my confirmed list, which presently stands at about 75% for each color of the full face poses, and a smidge less than half of each for the thin face poses.

[Vintagecatcher]

I believe both versions of the Px7s show Doc Scanlan. One is the full face and one is the thin face version.

Per Baseball Reference, Doc finished playing for Brooklyn is 1911. he played for Pittsburgh from 1903-1904 and was traded to Brooklyn in 1904. He never played for Philadelphia.

Frank played just 6 games for Philadelphia in 1909.

Patrick

[bigfanNY]

So the Ebay auction by ,"David Vintage" was the owner of the Number one PSA graded set. And I agree prices were soft. I would have thought an auction house would have been a better Avenue. Looks like all the scarce variations were scooped up and might just appear in the new iimproved number 1 set.
I have always liked Dominoes and even though they are more common I prefer type 1 esp with red background.
J

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

So the Ebay auction by ,"David Vintage" was the owner of the Number one PSA graded set. And I agree prices were soft. I would have thought an auction house would have been a better Avenue. Looks like all the scarce variations were scooped up and might just appear in the new iimproved number 1 set.
I have always liked Dominoes and even though they are more common I prefer type 1 esp with red background.
J

If you say so. I don't believe the prices were soft at all, as many went unsold and are still available as BINs. I was lucky to land two of the tougher variations, and they won't end up on the Registry anytime soon, because 1) I'm far, far away from completion, and b) I would never belong to the Registry-- I am more apt to pop the damn things out of the holders. FWIW, I believe the pop reports are interesting but misleading when it comes to discerning the tough variations, since they do not distinguish between the poses. There are also an awful lot of ungraded disks out there too, many of which appear to be in very nice condition.

Like you, though, I am partial to the red backgrounds. They're clearly the most vibrant.

[detroitbaseball]

Hi Todd. I do agree with you that both Domino Disc variations are of Doc and not Frank.

According to Baseball Reference in December 1911 Doc was traded from the Brooklyn Dodgers to the Philadelphia Phillies for Eddie Stack. Although it looks like 1911 was Doc's last season and he never actually played for the Phillies.

The Baseball Encyclopedia 9th Edition 1993 doesn't show Doc's 1911 trade to the Phillies (see pics below).

I still think that the correct spelling is Scanlan though. At least according to MLB, Baseball Reference & Baseball Almanac it is.

I added a few additional websites below for viewing.

William "Doc" Scanlan

MLB

Baseball Reference

Baseball Almanac

Greater Syracuse Sports Hall Of Fame

Frank Scanlan

MLB

Baseball Reference

Baseball Almanac