Real / Fake 1954 Wilson Franks Ted Williams

[FrankWilsonWilliams]

Can anyone share some advice: Should I pay 4k for this card?

[FrankWilsonWilliams]

Back

[hangman62]

Yea, I'd pay it

[autograf]

Looks legit....if someone was going to fake it, they would probably have a centered back.....

[FrankWilsonWilliams]

Yeah, but a faker might uncenter it just to give it the authentic look. Thank you for your advice! Going to buy it tomorrow!

[Sean1125]

Originally Posted by FrankWilsonWilliams

Yeah, but a faker might uncenter it just to give it the authentic look. Thank you for your advice! Going to buy it tomorrow!

You should NEVER pay $4k for that card even if it is authentic. I am not sure who gave you this advice, you would need to hit a 4.5~ area grade to command that sort of price and this is miscut (if authentic, I am still unsure).

[FrankWilsonWilliams]

Originally Posted by Sean1125

You should NEVER pay $4k for that card even if it is authentic. I am not sure who gave you this advice, you would need to hit a 4.5~ area grade to command that sort of price and this is miscut (if authentic, I am still unsure).

You don't think PSA would grade this atleast a 5 (MC)

[cparker94]

I never buy expensive ungraded cards. Why? Because there is usually a reason why the expensive card hasn't been graded. Some of the time, a seller will send a card to be graded and it will come back as authentic. When I see "authentic" as a grade I immediately think the card has been altered or trimmed in some way. Maybe that's what could have happened with this card and the seller decided to crack the holder and try to sell as a raw card. If I were you and shelling out that kind of money, I would protect myself by explaining to the buyer that you plan on having the card graded and if it comes back as a fake or other undesirable grade like authentic, then you would need a refund.

I recently bought a 1962 Topps Lou Brock RC and the card looked to be mint except for the fact that it is obviously shorter than my other 1962 cards. I hate it when people trim cards and say they are mint. Happens too much these days.

Just my two cents...

Craig from Texas

[wilkiebaby11]

Originally Posted by cparker94

I never buy expensive ungraded cards. Why? Because there is usually a reason why the expensive card hasn't been graded. Some of the time, a seller will send a card to be graded and it will come back as authentic. When I see "authentic" as a grade I immediately think the card has been altered or trimmed in some way. Maybe that's what could have happened with this card and the seller decided to crack the holder and try to sell as a raw card. If I were you and shelling out that kind of money, I would protect myself by explaining to the buyer that you plan on having the card graded and if it comes back as a fake or other undesirable grade like authentic, then you would need a refund.

I recently bought a 1962 Topps Lou Brock RC and the card looked to be mint except for the fact that it is obviously shorter than my other 1962 cards. I hate it when people trim cards and say they are mint. Happens too much these days.

Just my two cents...

Craig from Texas

What he said! Is it not worth the seller even spending $110 to get a PSA Membership and getting this graded? Or find someone who would for a $20 spot. If you want to take the risk, so be it, then you've got bigger cojones then me.

[Sean1125]

Originally Posted by cparker94

I never buy expensive ungraded cards. Why? Because there is usually a reason why the expensive card hasn't been graded. Some of the time, a seller will send a card to be graded and it will come back as authentic. When I see "authentic" as a grade I immediately think the card has been altered or trimmed in some way. Maybe that's what could have happened with this card and the seller decided to crack the holder and try to sell as a raw card. If I were you and shelling out that kind of money, I would protect myself by explaining to the buyer that you plan on having the card graded and if it comes back as a fake or other undesirable grade like authentic, then you would need a refund.

I recently bought a 1962 Topps Lou Brock RC and the card looked to be mint except for the fact that it is obviously shorter than my other 1962 cards. I hate it when people trim cards and say they are mint. Happens too much these days.

Just my two cents...

Craig from Texas

I disagree. Card should not be purchased in the first place. There is likely a reason it is not graded, plus the price is incredibly high to begin with (in terms of condition, even if it is authentic). By the time you get it back and find out the bad news good luck getting money back...

You really should stay away from this card...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Even if real, too expensive for a miscut.

[cparker94]

I do agree with Sean. As long as you are protected by your credit card company and there is no risk to you, I would proceed with caution. However, if you are protected, keep in mind that your money could be tied up for a long period of time during the refund process. Do you know the seller? Check into his feedback. Request his phone number. Call him. You will have a better feel for transaction after talking to him.

Craig from Texas

Originally Posted by Sean1125

I disagree. Card should not be purchased in the first place. There is likely a reason it is not graded, plus the price is incredibly high to begin with (in terms of condition, even if it is authentic). By the time you get it back and find out the bad news good luck getting money back...

You really should stay away from this card...

[FrankWilsonWilliams]

​​​​Goudey Big League
No.7 Ted Lyons, white sox
No.251 Irving “Bump” Hadley, Yankees
No.255 Julius Solters, Indians
No.262 Joseph “Ducky” Medwick, Cards
No.266 Ervin “Pete” Fox, Tigers
No.270 Ernest Lombardi, Reds
No.271 Joseph “Joe” Vosmik, Red Sox
No.272 Richard “Dick’ Bartell, Giants
No.275 Irving “Bump” Hadley, Yankees
No.276 Henry “Zeke” Bonura, Senators
No.281 Alphonse “Al” Lopez, Bees
No.284 Rudolph “Rudy” York, Tigers
No.285 Raymond “Rip” Radcliff, White Sox

​​​​Piedmont Ciggerette “T-206”
Elberfeld, Washington
Mattern, Boston Nat’l
Barry, Phila. Amer.
Wheat, Brooklyn
Kelley, Toronto
Fiene, Chicago Amer.
Collins, Minneapolis
Griffith, Cincinnati
Chase, N. Y. Amer. “Portrait”
Chase, N. Y. Amer. “Fielding”
Wallace, St. Louis Amer.
Jennings, Detroit
Griffith, Cincinnati
Robert Harmon, St Louis Nationals “400 designs”
Roger Bresnahan, St Louis Nationals “400 designs”
​​​​​Pop Ups
Don Drysdale, LA Dodgers
Warren Spahn, Milwaukee Braves
Ed Mathews, Milwaukee Braves
Willie McCovey, SF Giants​

​​​​Sovereign Ciggerettes “350 Subjects”
Joss, Cleveland
Chase, NY Amer.
Titus, Phila. Nat’l
Jennings, Detroit
Milligan, Jersey City
Fred Clakre, Pittsburg “400 designs”

​​​​​Play Ball, Gum Inc.
No.6 Carl Owen Hubbell, NY Giants​“3 Cards”
No.8 Melvin Thomas Ott, NY Giants​“2 cards”
No.13 James Emory Foxx, Boston Red Sox
No.19 Charles Leonard Gehringer, Detroit Tigers​ “2 cards”
No. 20 Charles Herbert Ruffing, NY Yankees
No.56 john Samuel Vander Meer, Cincinnati Reds

​​​​Diamond Stars
No.28 Alphonse Lopes, Dodgers
No. 30 Henry Manush, Washington
No.31 “kiki” Hazen Cuyler, Cubs
No.60 Charles Ruffing, Yankees
No.43 Theodore Lyons, White Sox
No.36 Ernest Lombardi. Reds
No.35 Earl Averill, Cleveland

​​​​Wilson Franks
Ted Williams, Red Sox
Gil Hodges, Dodgers
Bob Feller, Cleveland
Ray Jablonski, Cardinals
Enos Slaughter, Yankees
Sammy White, Red Sox
Andy Pafko, Braves
Johnny Groth, White Sox
Hank Sauer, Cubs
Rob Schoendienst, Cardinals
Paul Richards, White Sox

​​​​Polar Bear Tobacco “T-206”
Chance, Chicago Nat’l​“2 cards”
Crandall, New York Nat’l
Jennings, Detroit
Leach, Pittsburg

​​​​Hassan Double Folds
Terrence Turner/ Jos. Birmingham​“2 cards”
Fred Payne/ Edward Walsh
Wm. A. Foxen/ Frank Chance
William Bergen/C.N. Rucker
S.R. Magee/ George Paskert
John McGraw/ Roger Bresnahan
Edgar Summers/ Oscar Stanage
John Meyers/ Otis Crandall​“2 Cards”
John Evers/ James Archer
Fred Clarke/ George Gibson
George Gibson/ Al. P. Leifield
Fred Clarke/ Robert Byrne
Harry Wolter/ Harold Chase
David Jones/ Jas Delahanty​“2 Cards”
John Hummel/ Jacod Daubert
Ira Thomas/ Charles Bender
S.R. Magee/ Patrick Moran
Charlie Dooin/ S.R. Magee
Charlie Dooin/ John Titus
Michael Doolan/ Charlie Dooin
Russell Ford/ Edward Sweeney​​“2 cards”
Dolly Gray/ Robert Groom
James Vaughn/ Russell Ford​“2 cards”
George Gibson/ Howard Camnitz
John Murray/ Fred Snodgrass
Frank LaPorte/ R. J. Wallace
Willaim Bergen/ Edward Barger
John Meyers/ Rich Marquard
Beals Becker/ Joshua Devore
John Meyers/ Leon Ames​“2 cards”
Fred Clarke/ John Miller
Zach Wheat/ WM. Dahlen
Fred Merkle/ Lawrence Doyle
George Gibson/ Chas. Philippe
WM. Dahlen/ W. D. Scanlan
Robt. H. Bescher/ John Bates
John Kling/ HY. Steinfeldt
Oscar Stanage/ Edgar Willett
Clarke Griffith/ Geo. McBride
W. A. Latham/ A. L. Raymond



​​​​Sweet Caporal Cigarettes “T-206”
Marquard, N.Y Nat’l
Crawford, Detroit
Mc Graw, N.Y. Nat’l
Elberfeld, N.Y Amer.
Graham, Boston Nat’l
Thomas E. Downey, Cincinnati Nat’l “400 designs”

​​​​Single Fold Mecca Cigarettes
Edgar Summers/ Hugh Jennings
Baker/ Collins
Fitzpatrick/Killian
George Wilste/ Fred Merkle
John Butler/ William Abstein
Jake Daubert/ G. N. Rucker
J. T. Meyers/ Larry Doyle
Chas Dooin/ John Titus
Walter Blair/ Roy Hartzell
W. E. Donovan/ Ralph Stroud
Edward Sweeney/ Harold Chase
Rueben Oldring/ Charles Bender
John Lapp/ John Barry
John Coombs/ Ira Thomas
James Barrett/ Grant Mcglynn
Joseph McGinnity/ Lewis McCarty
Joseph Ward/ Edward Foster
Charles Starr/ Arthur McCabe

​​​​​Sporting Life
Baker, Phila. Americans
E. Collins, Phila Americans
Madden, Boston Americans

​​​​​Assorted Singles
Bresnahan, Mgr. St. Louis, “Nadja Caramels”
Frank Baker, Phila Amer. “ Hassan 400 designs”
Collins, Phila Amer. “Stars of the Diamonds, Chip”
Jennings, Mgr. Detroit “American Caramels 100 Subjects”
Frank Baker Athletics (A.L.) “E-91 American Caramel”
Edward T Collins, Phila Amer, “Honest Tobacco”
Miller, Pittsburg, “Havana Cigarettes”

[FrankWilsonWilliams]

I appreciate all your insight. The list I just posted is the sellers entire list that I will buy for 6k. It was his fathers collection. All the signs seem like it's legit. Does this help change anyone's mind?

[Sean1125]

Originally Posted by FrankWilsonWilliams

I appreciate all your insight. The list I just posted is the sellers entire list that I will buy for 6k. It was his fathers collection. All the signs seem like it's legit. Does this help change anyone's mind?

Assuming the Williams is Legit (I think it is legit, but I still think the price is piss-poor), I think you are paying pretty much retail across the board and the seller is doing no favors for you. Obviously if everything here is ultra high grade that changes, but I am assuming average grade for the issue (t206/Goudey/etc)

[Leon]

Without knowing more I would say it's probably worth it for the whole deal. That being said I expect your PM inbox to get some interest too .....If you get it take your time selling (at least do some good research) and good luck.

I should add, I would have to see conditions of cards to be more sure.... I am basing my thoughts off of them being pretty nice and I haven't penned each value...

[cparker94]

On that kind of money, I would need to see the collection in person. Does he live close by? Also, him saying that these are his father's could be a clue to be skeptical. Here are some examples.

1) "I'm not an expert card grader, so please look at the scans." What he really means is: "These cards aren't that great and there are no returns period."

2) "These cards belonged to my father." What he could mean is: "I want you to think that I know nothing about these cards. That way I can't be at fault if there are any problems with them."

Oh, and of course, my favorite....

3) "My husband just had a heart attack so this old stack of mint 1952's must go!" What this usually means is: "I am that husband and I plan on making you believe I'm a widow who knows nothing about cards and will rip you off."

Seriously, you need to set up an appointment at a public place if he is driving distance from you. Otherwise, at least call him. You will have a better idea once you talk to him over the phone or in person.

Craig from Texas

Originally Posted by FrankWilsonWilliams

I appreciate all your insight. The list I just posted is the sellers entire list that I will buy for 6k. It was his fathers collection. All the signs seem like it's legit. Does this help change anyone's mind?

[FrankWilsonWilliams]

Feller front

[FrankWilsonWilliams]

Goudey example

[FrankWilsonWilliams]

Ex

[FrankWilsonWilliams]

More?

[Sean1125]

Originally Posted by FrankWilsonWilliams

Ex

You are looking at VG, not EX. If you think that is EX you need to take some more time to study grading.

You are going to have trouble making money out of this deal. You are over-valuing the Williams way too much.

[FrankWilsonWilliams]

Ex= meant example

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Leon

Without knowing more I would say it's probably worth it for the whole deal. That being said I expect your PM inbox to get some interest too .....If you get it take your time selling (at least do some good research) and good luck.

I should add, I would have to see conditions of cards to be more sure.... I am basing my thoughts off of them being pretty nice and I haven't penned each value...

+1

[autograf]

To me......they are all definitely legit. I think it's worth the $6K and like Leon said if you take your time, you should make money. Are you going to double your money--probably not unless something (or -things) grade out strong. An interesting lot of cards spanning 60 years. Love those Wilsons. A shame the Williams back is so far off kilter. That would pay for your lot if centered better. Post scans of all the cards if you get the lot!

[jhs5120]

If everything is VG you'll do fine. You overvalued the Williams (it's maybe a $2500 card), but if you can get a PSA 2-5 from the rest you're looking pretty good. I would try to get him down to $5,000 though.

[ezez420]

Leave the Williams and buy for $1500-$2k


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[ullmandds]

Some of you guys are cheap and looking to take advantage.

[Sean1125]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Some of you guys are cheap and looking to take advantage.

I wonder who. I haven't contacted him to purchase, but still do not think it is that great of a deal TBH. Williams is $1500-$2k, I wholeheartedly agree. Would not pay $4k for the rest of that list. After e-bay fees, grading expenses, and a large headache I don't honestly believe there is much money to be made.

[ullmandds]

All cards minus williams for 1500-2k...is being cheap! Just my opinion...i am no dealer.

[Sean1125]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

All cards minus williams for 1500-2k...is being cheap! Just my opinion...i am do dealer.

Do you lack the ability to read, or do you just try and insult people because it makes you feel better inside? The WILLIAMS is valued at $1500-$2k. The rest of the group would be $4000-$4500.

[ullmandds]

Nothing personal sean...but go f$ck yourself!

[Sean1125]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Nothing personal sean...but go f$ck yourself!

[FrankWilsonWilliams]

Originally Posted by Sean1125

I wonder who. I haven't contacted him to purchase, but still do not think it is that great of a deal TBH. Williams is $1500-$2k, I wholeheartedly agree. Would not pay $4k for the rest of that list. After e-bay fees, grading expenses, and a large headache I don't honestly believe there is much money to be made.

Yeah, You haven't contacted me to buy it but others have... I think they realize that there are only three of these cards on eBay right now and that they look beat up compared to this one... Your 1500-2000 price can buy you this card (pictured). So either way, Sean, I appreciate your insight but it seems like you are the minority here. Moreover, I looked at the couple of cards you have on your store and they seem way over priced but that's not the point. And about listing difficulties, I have my consignment source that handles all that. Some of these cards will be listed on eBay shortly.

Everyone else, I appreciate your insight and advice greatly. I was able to pick up the whole lot for around 5k. If anyone wants/needs any of these cards AND you gave me solid advice/ feedback then please go ahead and message me. I'll be as fair as possible with you.