Fake Signed T206 Cards (Too Many to List in the Title, See First Post for List)

[Daveyc]

there has been some speculation as to how long these authenticators actually spend reviewing each signature. I have been attending the HOF induction ceremony for years. James Spence and his crew are always in attendance. He usually has a couple of young guys set up at tables for authenticating autos that are being signed in person. for instance. MAB always sets up and has dozens of signers. you enter through the front door of the Inn where the signing takes place. go to the athlete you paid for and get the sigs. after which, you exit out a back door and walk around to the front of the building where JSA is set up to "authenticate" one guy will enter the player/item into their data base, the other affixes a sticker to the memorabilia. they hardly even look at the item. a forger could bring dozens of baseballs, bats, uniforms etc around the side of the building and get in line for "authentication". I have never seen an item even questioned. it is literally an assembly line. THere is absolutely no authentication going on there, just data entry. I have been watching this for years and years.

James himself also does "authentication" in Cooperstown. he sets up at the small card show. I have watched him work many many times and have been quite underwhelmed. there is usually a pretty long line, and people walk right up to him and have him "authenticate" their items in front of them. this is where vintage items are done. the absolute longest I have ever seen him look at an item is no longer than 20-30 seconds. and that was for a multi signed baseball. it is VERY fast. then he hands the item back, enters the data into his template and boom, LOA.

At least for JSA, we are not even paying for a few minutes of their time when they are authenticating items. It really is just a few seconds. it is very casual, and I felt uncomfortable having the client watching him work. Seems that there could be situations where he could be pressured into passing an item.

that is just my two cents. I was wholly unimpressed by the whole process.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by Daveyc

there has been some speculation as to how long these authenticators actually spend reviewing each signature. I have been attending the HOF induction ceremony for years. James Spence and his crew are always in attendance. He usually has a couple of young guys set up at tables for authenticating autos that are being signed in person. for instance. MAB always sets up and has dozens of signers. you enter through the front door of the Inn where the signing takes place. go to the athlete you paid for and get the sigs. after which, you exit out a back door and walk around to the front of the building where JSA is set up to "authenticate" one guy will enter the player/item into their data base, the other affixes a sticker to the memorabilia. they hardly even look at the item. a forger could bring dozens of baseballs, bats, uniforms etc around the side of the building and get in line for "authentication". I have never seen an item even questioned. it is literally an assembly line. THere is absolutely no authentication going on there, just data entry. I have been watching this for years and years.

James himself also does "authentication" in Cooperstown. he sets up at the small card show. I have watched him work many many times and have been quite underwhelmed. there is usually a pretty long line, and people walk right up to him and have him "authenticate" their items in front of them. this is where vintage items are done. the absolute longest I have ever seen him look at an item is no longer than 20-30 seconds. and that was for a multi signed baseball. it is VERY fast. then he hands the item back, enters the data into his template and boom, LOA.

At least for JSA, we are not even paying for a few minutes of their time when they are authenticating items. It really is just a few seconds. it is very casual, and I felt uncomfortable having the client watching him work. Seems that there could be situations where he could be pressured into passing an item.

that is just my two cents. I was wholly unimpressed by the whole process.

This description pretty much just told most people you have no idea what you’re talking about.

[Daveyc]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

This description pretty much just told most people you have no idea what you’re talking about.

what in the world are you talking about? I witnessed this myself. I have no skin in this game. My only autos are the ones I watched being signed. Maybe, just maybe, the one who doesn't know is you.

[Marchillo]

Originally Posted by Daveyc

what in the world are you talking about? I witnessed this myself. I have no skin in this game. My only autos are the ones I watched being signed. Maybe, just maybe, the one who doesn't know is you.

I wrote something similar earlier in this thread. The description at the MAB show is 100% accurate and true. Its data entry and they didn't watch the items being signed. You could bring a ball that wasn't signed at the show and get a sticker as long as that signer is in attendance.

I have been to the card show but haven't gone to the JSA table to witness that process. So I can't verify the second part. But based on what I see at the MAB table I would believe this.

I'll be at the induction this year like always. When I'm at the card show I'll check out the JSA table to see what happens.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by Daveyc

what in the world are you talking about? I witnessed this myself. I have no skin in this game. My only autos are the ones I watched being signed. Maybe, just maybe, the one who doesn't know is you.

I am going to sound like I am defending the company, but if you think that no authentication is going on you are mistaken. I will give you the fact that if they are authenticating post signing signers at the HOF it is a quick slap a sticker production line, but to say for vintage ir expensive items they just slap a sticker on anything is blatantly false. Yes, yes Sal Bando. I know.

Go ahead and believe whatever you want, but you may be underestimating many things about the process. Better yet, maybe you should open your own company because there’s nothing to it and you could make a lot of money.

There are many things I disagree with about authentication companies and the process, but to say they pass everything that is put in front of them is simply not true.

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

I am going to sound like I am defending the company, but if you think that no authentication is going on you are mistaken. I will give you the fact that if they are authenticating post signing signers at the HOF it is a quick slap a sticker production line, but to say for vintage ir expensive items they just slap a sticker on anything is blatantly false. Yes, yes Sal Bando. I know.

Go ahead and believe whatever you want, but you may be underestimating many things about the process. Better yet, maybe you should open your own company because there’s nothing to it and you could make a lot of money.

There are many things I disagree with about authentication companies and the process, but to say they pass everything that is put in front of them is simply not true.

One note on the Sal Bando, and yes that should have been stopped BUT... the TV piece was done during a show where Bando was, ...signing.

Normal people would presume, and I get that can be dangerous, that any Bando auto they would see that weekend would be good. That is "gotcha" journalism and there are far better targets

Rich

[Daveyc]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

I am going to sound like I am defending the company, but if you think that no authentication is going on you are mistaken. I will give you the fact that if they are authenticating post signing signers at the HOF it is a quick slap a sticker production line, but to say for vintage ir expensive items they just slap a sticker on anything is blatantly false. Yes, yes Sal Bando. I know.

Go ahead and believe whatever you want, but you may be underestimating many things about the process. Better yet, maybe you should open your own company because there’s nothing to it and you could make a lot of money.

There are many things I disagree with about authentication companies and the process, but to say they pass everything that is put in front of them is simply not true.

First of all, I never said they authenticate everything. But I witnessed jimmie himself, and his "authentication" process. He passed everything I WITNESSED him look at, and only spent mere seconds on each item and very casually at that. They do pass EVERYTHING put in front of them at live signing events and they DO NOT witness the signings. He often would be conversing with the client as he was "authenticating" I saw at least one team ball he did this with. Wouldn't you agree that at the least the "authenticator" and client shouldn't be face to face during the process? I have watched this on more than one occasion.

As for their post signing "authentication" process, that is a joke and could be seen as indicative as to how seriously they take authentication in general. If Jimmie himself is this cavalier in public, imagine how that place runs behind closed doors.

A word of advice. Maybe you should know what you are talking about before you denigrate others. I have witnessed this process first hand, it appears you have not, but are placing blind faith in the process, probably because you have some skin in the game.

[Marchillo]

Originally Posted by Daveyc

First of all, I never said they authenticate everything. But I witnessed jimmie himself, and his "authentication" process. He passed everything I WITNESSED him look at, and only spent mere seconds on each item and very casually at that. They do pass EVERYTHING put in front of them at live signing events and they DO NOT witness the signings. He often would be conversing with the client as he was "authenticating" I saw at least one team ball he did this with. Wouldn't you agree that at the least the "authenticator" and client shouldn't be face to face during the process? I have watched this on more than one occasion.

As for their post signing "authentication" process, that is a joke and could be seen as indicative as to how seriously they take authentication in general. If Jimmie himself is this cavalier in public, imagine how that place runs behind closed doors.

A word of advice. Maybe you should know what you are talking about before you denigrate others. I have witnessed this process first hand, it appears you have not, but are placing blind faith in the process, probably because you have some skin in the game.

David -

I believe what you are saying because your description of the MAB show is 100% accurate. I’m sure (hopeful) a little more scrutiny goes into the process when items are sent in. But witnessing these types of things certainly cast doubts.

[Pat R]

I finally found the Doyle sale and it appears it might be unrelated to the
Marquard that was purchased by f***f or the large group that was
purchased by n***e.

Doyle Auto.jpg


In the last recorded sale of the Doyle prior to it being sold signed was
a purchase by s***s with a feedback between 500-999.

Doyle Sale.jpg

So we have the Marquard that was purchased by f***f and the following that
were purchased by n***e

Baker
Barbeau
Cicotte
Conroy
Flick
Livingston
Murray
Parent
Rucker
Sullivan
Tannehill
Zimmerman

That leaves only the Rhoades sale but the ebay seller is unknown so
it will be hard to find that sale.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by Daveyc

First of all, I never said they authenticate everything. But I witnessed jimmie himself, and his "authentication" process. He passed everything I WITNESSED him look at, and only spent mere seconds on each item and very casually at that. They do pass EVERYTHING put in front of them at live signing events and they DO NOT witness the signings. He often would be conversing with the client as he was "authenticating" I saw at least one team ball he did this with. Wouldn't you agree that at the least the "authenticator" and client shouldn't be face to face during the process? I have watched this on more than one occasion.

As for their post signing "authentication" process, that is a joke and could be seen as indicative as to how seriously they take authentication in general. If Jimmie himself is this cavalier in public, imagine how that place runs behind closed doors.

A word of advice. Maybe you should know what you are talking about before you denigrate others. I have witnessed this process first hand, it appears you have not, but are placing blind faith in the process, probably because you have some skin in the game.

I do have a pretty good idea on how autographs are authenticated. I have been buying and selling them for over 30 years. Some take longer and more study and some take merely a glance. If an autograph expert (let's for fun just say it's an expert) only takes 2 seconds to look at an item, it doesn't mean it's not authentic. You are paying for that unbiased "let's also for fun say they're unbiased" authenticators opinion to make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside and more confident in purchasing the autograph.

If you bring a Babe Ruth ball and it's clearly not a run of the mill forgery, they are going to take much more time on it. They might even ask multiple people for their opinion as well before giving a letter. BTW, letters are signed in front of a notary public and sent out in the mail. Not "voila" or "poof" or whatever you described.

A person pays the authentication company for their opinion, despite many others opinions who think they should be libel for saying it's authentic. This is done to make the buyer feel confident in their purchase having another party say they also believe the item is authentic. OR the seller who is letting buyers know that there is this third party who also agrees with the sellers opinion of authenticity. Items that come with LOA's from PSA and JSA often, if not all times, fetch more at auction or direct sale than those without.

I know this because I do business with some of these authentication companies as I already described. I sell items and guarantee them to pass or they already come with the authentication. This is to increase my bottom line, no other reason. There are plenty of people who refuse to do business with these companies, but try to get top dollar without playing the TPA game nowadays. It doesn't work. If I get a letter and double my money, guess what, i'm getting the letter or COA.

The issue I have with your comment is that you think there is no process and the amount of time is unsatisfactory to you. If they choose to put one second, one minute, or one hour in to an item, that is their right to do so. They are putting their reputation on the line. If their reputation is damaged, then the market will reflect this and their business will go away after the market corrects.

Lastly, There are WAAAAAAYYYYYY more trimmed and altered cards in PSA and SGC holders than there are fake autographs that are authenticated by PSA and JSA. The card game is far worse than the auto game. People may argue with me all they want, but you will never convince me otherwise. Many, many full time dealers "work" on cards before they are sent off to the TPA. Most pass or pass the next time.

Bottom line, complain all you want about the TPA companies but they serve a purpose and command higher dollar results at the end of the day. I sell autographs and memorabilia to make money, the more the better for me an my family.

[Duluth Eskimo]

To get back on task with this thread, that is another great find. That one had a lot of work done to it. Please continue to keep up the work.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

I do have a pretty good idea on how autographs are authenticated. I have been buying and selling them for over 30 years. Some take longer and more study and some take merely a glance. If an autograph expert (let's for fun just say it's an expert) only takes 2 seconds to look at an item, it doesn't mean it's not authentic. You are paying for that unbiased "let's also for fun say they're unbiased" authenticators opinion to make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside and more confident in purchasing the autograph.

If you bring a Babe Ruth ball and it's clearly not a run of the mill forgery, they are going to take much more time on it. They might even ask multiple people for their opinion as well before giving a letter. BTW, letters are signed in front of a notary public and sent out in the mail. Not "voila" or "poof" or whatever you described.

A person pays the authentication company for their opinion, despite many others opinions who think they should be libel for saying it's authentic. This is done to make the buyer feel confident in their purchase having another party say they also believe the item is authentic. OR the seller who is letting buyers know that there is this third party who also agrees with the sellers opinion of authenticity. Items that come with LOA's from PSA and JSA often, if not all times, fetch more at auction or direct sale than those without.

I know this because I do business with some of these authentication companies as I already described. I sell items and guarantee them to pass or they already come with the authentication. This is to increase my bottom line, no other reason. There are plenty of people who refuse to do business with these companies, but try to get top dollar without playing the TPA game nowadays. It doesn't work. If I get a letter and double my money, guess what, i'm getting the letter or COA.

The issue I have with your comment is that you think there is no process and the amount of time is unsatisfactory to you. If they choose to put one second, one minute, or one hour in to an item, that is their right to do so. They are putting their reputation on the line. If their reputation is damaged, then the market will reflect this and their business will go away after the market corrects.

Lastly, There are WAAAAAAYYYYYY more trimmed and altered cards in PSA and SGC holders than there are fake autographs that are authenticated by PSA and JSA. The card game is far worse than the auto game. People may argue with me all they want, but you will never convince me otherwise. Many, many full time dealers "work" on cards before they are sent off to the TPA. Most pass or pass the next time.

Bottom line, complain all you want about the TPA companies but they serve a purpose and command higher dollar results at the end of the day. I sell autographs and memorabilia to make money, the more the better for me an my family.

So you do have some skin in the game and admit fraud is rampant with sigs and trimmed cards but because you make money off of them, then they have a purpose in the hobby.

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

The issue I have with your comment is that you think there is no process and the amount of time is unsatisfactory to you. If they choose to put one second, one minute, or one hour in to an item, that is their right to do so. They are putting their reputation on the line. If their reputation is damaged, then the market will reflect this and their business will go away after the market corrects.

I have no skin in the autograph game - precisely for what has come to light in this thread. While the above that you shared is a great THEORY - taking into consideration the imperfection of markets - it is often NOT how it works in practice. I have read a number of articles and watched a specific video done under cover catching Spence authenticating a signature that the under cover reporter had signed hours earlier and confronted by the ball player (Sal Bando). Problem is - most collectors do not do the same level of due diligence and do not know about these incidents - as most will never read this thread! So history has shown - there is no "market correction" as you suggest - just the continued proliferation of greed, forged autographs, altered cards and worthless opinions. While I do not know who they are, I understand there are guys doing this for long enough that the small few "in the know" rely on for truly expert opinions - guys who may have made honest mistakes, but have stood the test of time without the repeated carelessness and controversy and apparent negligence as some mentioned in this thread. Forgery is a crime. Is claiming to be an "expert" when your history has shown (imo) that you are not? Outside of netting you more money - how is this all possibly good for the hobby?

[Daveyc]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

I do have a pretty good idea on how autographs are authenticated. I have been buying and selling them for over 30 years. Some take longer and more study and some take merely a glance. If an autograph expert (let's for fun just say it's an expert) only takes 2 seconds to look at an item, it doesn't mean it's not authentic. You are paying for that unbiased "let's also for fun say they're unbiased" authenticators opinion to make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside and more confident in purchasing the autograph.

If you bring a Babe Ruth ball and it's clearly not a run of the mill forgery, they are going to take much more time on it. They might even ask multiple people for their opinion as well before giving a letter. BTW, letters are signed in front of a notary public and sent out in the mail. Not "voila" or "poof" or whatever you described.

A person pays the authentication company for their opinion, despite many others opinions who think they should be libel for saying it's authentic. This is done to make the buyer feel confident in their purchase having another party say they also believe the item is authentic. OR the seller who is letting buyers know that there is this third party who also agrees with the sellers opinion of authenticity. Items that come with LOA's from PSA and JSA often, if not all times, fetch more at auction or direct sale than those without.

I know this because I do business with some of these authentication companies as I already described. I sell items and guarantee them to pass or they already come with the authentication. This is to increase my bottom line, no other reason. There are plenty of people who refuse to do business with these companies, but try to get top dollar without playing the TPA game nowadays. It doesn't work. If I get a letter and double my money, guess what, i'm getting the letter or COA.

The issue I have with your comment is that you think there is no process and the amount of time is unsatisfactory to you. If they choose to put one second, one minute, or one hour in to an item, that is their right to do so. They are putting their reputation on the line. If their reputation is damaged, then the market will reflect this and their business will go away after the market corrects.

Lastly, There are WAAAAAAYYYYYY more trimmed and altered cards in PSA and SGC holders than there are fake autographs that are authenticated by PSA and JSA. The card game is far worse than the auto game. People may argue with me all they want, but you will never convince me otherwise. Many, many full time dealers "work" on cards before they are sent off to the TPA. Most pass or pass the next time.

Bottom line, complain all you want about the TPA companies but they serve a purpose and command higher dollar results at the end of the day. I sell autographs and memorabilia to make money, the more the better for me an my family.

I said nothing about trimmed or altered cards. you added that little tid bit to try and deflect from the topic at hand. not applicable here. The authentication game is faulty from the start. first off, where do these "experts" get their training? you will probably never get an answer from any of the TPA on that one. if they did answer the question, they would probably say their experts have years and years and years of experience..... well, where did that experience come from? I believe both Spence and Steve Grad "studied" under everyones favorite, Bill Mastro.

One can have all the experience in the world and it is all worthless if the person they are apprenticed under is not qualified themselves. remember, only perfect practice makes perfect. everything else is just practiced mistakes.

It is relatively easy to create these forgeries, but the "experts" seem to have a much harder time finding them. at some point, collectors at large will realize the "authenticated" signature is nothing more than a piece of paperwork, and really doesnt amount to a hill of beans