Trimmed T206 - am I wrong?

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Posted By: Al Crisafulli

Okay, I have a question about something and I'd love some opinions.

A couple of weeks ago while searching Ebay, I ran across a seller who had listed a nice run of raw T206s. I searched through them and came across a Joe Kelley that was described as being in "near mint" condition.

The scan looked very nice - not near mint, but probably ex-mint. I looked at the seller's feedback (99.8% on 500 transactions), and looked at the other T206s which he was selling. They were all very nice, and in looking at the bidders, I noticed a lot of Net54 names. The scan of the Kelley looked nice, but I did have a little concern over the top edge of the card. However, based on my assessment that it was an ex-mint card, I bid accordingly and won the auction at just over $200.

The day the card arrived, I opened the package and immediately could tell that the card had been trimmed across the top edge. It wasn't as obvious in the scan, but holding the card in my hand it was plain as day. However, just to be sure, I brought the card over to SGC that afternoon for a quick evaluation, and they verified that it had been trimmed, and rejected the card.

So I sent the seller a very polite email, explaining that the card was trimmed, and asking how he would like to arrange a refund. Unfortunately, I got no response.

The next day, I sent another polite email, and again, no response.

The third day, I sent a third email, a little more firm than the first two. In that email, I asked that he respond to me by a given date or that I would have to file a complaint with Paypal.

After the date came and went, I filed a complaint with Paypal. Of course, within hours of filing the complaint, I received an email from the seller.

In the email, the seller expressed his regret that the card had been trimmed. He then stated that the card was given to him on consignment, and that the consignor wanted nothing to do with refunds. He implied that he had already paid the consignor, and stated that he did not have any money to refund me. He then explained that the listing stated "no refunds" (which is true - not in the description, but at the bottom of the listing near the payment instructions/shipping info, which I didn't catch). Finally, he told me that I could feel free to leave him negative feedback and he would not retaliate. His email was very polite, but in no uncertain terms he told me I was SOL.

I was furious. I couldn't believe that a reputable seller would ignore my emails until I filed a complaint, and then hide behind his consignor and his fine-print "no refunds" disclaimer when he sold me an altered card that was described as "near mint". I might expect that from a bush-league, newbie seller with low feedback, but not from an established ebay seller. In my opinion, he was blatantly stealing my money and then flaunting it in my face.

But then my Paypal claim was denied.

I've never had a problem like this with an Ebay purchase before. Once or twice I had problems, and they were always rectified quickly. So I'm somewhat taken aback by this. Clearly the seller told Paypal something that caused them to deny my claim, but I would have thought this was a non-issue: the seller described a card as "near mint", but the card was most definitely altered and is ungradeable.

Am I in the wrong?

TIA for your opinions,

-Al

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Posted By: andy becker

hi al,
that sux. i would request contact information through ebay. speak to the seller direct and tell him/her that you will be outing the seller by ebay id on this board. and that all you are asking for is a refund.
if he/she will not conform, (and i suspect they will not) i would then follow thru, out them on this board...and let it go.
i know $200 is nothing to sneeze at, but if you resell it on ebay as ex/mt but trimmed, you will recover about half of the cost.
i would also try to contact paypal....over the phone, not email.
or perhaps you can leave paypal out and file a claim with ebay. ebay has $200 free insurance with every purchase.
you will have the $25 deductable, plus a long wait for your money.....but i have had success with ebay in filing claims.
hope that helps.
good luck, al.
-andy

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Posted By: Charlie O'Neal

That sucks being left hanging out in the wind like that. Not sh*t the seller doesn't mind the negative feedback, he is well established and burning somone on a high dollar sell really won't hurt his reputation very much.

Just wondering...when you filed for the refund with Paypal what category did you list the complaint under, was it item not as described? Did the seller ship the item by paying for the postage through Paypal.

From my understanding for fake and altered cards in order to get a return from paypal, you would need a letter from a grading company stating the problem with the card and provide the letter to paypal. I had this problem about a year ago and was not very happy when I got the cards to say the least. It was not worth paying to have the graded for the rejection letter. The only thing I could do was leave a negative feedback since the seller would not resond to my request. He turned around and slapped me with 3 negatives also. Since he's feedback rating was real high it hurt me way more then him. I could not sell anything b/c my feedback was 97.6% b/c of the incident, so I had to mutually agree to have the feedback withdrawn. I still haven't bought a thing from him since.

Some people will always try to take advantage of a situation. If the seller is an experience card seller more than likely he knew what he was selling and didn't disclose everything b/c it would cost him money alot of money. I'll jump off my soap box now.

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Posted By: Chris Counts

In all my years of buying and selling cards, I've always operated on the principle that if someone isn't happy with a purchase, I'll send them their money back. My reputation is simply worth more to me than a couple hundred dollars. Since I collect ungraded cards, I no doubt have unknowingly purchased a few trimmed cards. Heck, I've even bought trimmed cards on purpose if the price was right (I did this once with some Diamond Stars, and they amazingly graded out okay!) And it's likely that somewhere along the way, I have even unknowingly sold a trimmed card or two. But I can't imagine not returning a customer's money if they have an issue — any issue — with my description of a card's condition. The way I see it, this is not only good business, but good karma in a hobby where one's reputation still truly matters.

Al, I'm curious who the vendor you refer to is. I'd certainly be wary of buying anything from him in the future if he refuses to offer any refunds ...

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Posted By: andy becker

chris,
your policy is the exact same as mine. exactly. and when i ship orders out i email the buyer and tell them exactly that. if you are not happy (for whatever reason), just return the item.

one unhappy buyer is one too many.

reputation is all anyone has in this hobby.....and in life.

treat people the way you would like to be treated. simple isn't it?

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Posted By: Paul Moss

Sounds like someone needs a lesson in business ethics. I could and would expect that kind of response, or lack thereof, from an unsophisticated seller who doesn't know any better, but it sounds like this seller is familiar with T206's and cards in general, and to pull a cheap stunt like this is disgraceful. What a total BS excuse! You need to "out" this character for the good of the collecting community.

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Posted By: steve f

Al, Sorry to hear of your plight... I know this is of no present help but if I recieve a fake or altered card, and Ive "won" many scams, it is returned immediately, with insurance, a Paypal dispute opened and an email to the seller. I've had poor luck with phone calls due to sellers' falsified contact info. This method, for some unknown reason is very effective. They haven't returned my rejected cards -yet. Good luck

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Posted By: dstudeba

I know everyone seems to have a different grading scale, but I don't recall anyone over 11 years old calling a trimmed card near mint.

I would be interested as to who this is so I will remember to only buy super duper gem pristine mint from him. He should get some of Levi's 52 Mantles that are half there and sell them as Excellent.

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Posted By: Jerry

I don't know how you presented the transaction to paypal but there is a feature called Significatly not as described, you might want to check out that option.
Good Luck

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Posted By: Steve

Al

Sorry that happened to you. I agree the seller of the card should stand behind this sale, regardless if it was 'on consignment' or not. All too often shady characters hide behind such BS.

Steve

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Posted By: Josh K.

I have found that the best way to pay for a card and protect yourself is with a credit card even if you use paypal. The one time I had a problem, I went directly to my cc company and ignored paypal since I knew they were unlikely to help. Paypal doesnt like it, but there is nothing they can really do about it. If you happened to pay by cc, I would report it to the cc company and ask that they remove the charge.

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Posted By: Steve

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Posted By: Zach Rice

The seller is a board member, not sure if he has seen the thread or not though. Sorry about the card, Al.

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Posted By: peter ullman

that's a sharpie!

pete in mn

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Posted By: Brian

Sorry to hear that.
When I see a card that sharp, I ask the seller to guarantee that the card will grade, i.e., it is not trimmed. If the seller does not make this guarantee, I run like hell. Not worth the aggravation you are experiencing.

I have my own similar beef with a well-known person in the hobby, the card was not cheap, and I am also thinking of asking for opinions on this board. There is too much of this nonsense, and I see no harm in exposing this mischief.

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Posted By: dstudeba

Looks like the card is 99% original!

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Posted By: John J. Grillo

My guess if you could tell right away the card was trimmed immediately after receiving it, then probably the seller knew as well. The seller described the card as NM, they had an obligation to at least describe the card as "possibly trimmed" or something to that effect.

I think it is very unprofessional for someone stiff you out of a few hundred dollars and simply say "leave me negative feedback."

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Posted By: Steve

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

Al, you were robbed. This type of activity should be brought to light here so that we can avoid this seller in the future!

Frank

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Posted By: B.C.Daniels

let us see the card-no?

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Posted By: warshawlaw

1. Out the seller here. If you want leverage, don't be a gentleman.

2. When you buy raw high grade old cards you do run the risk of it being trimmed. Just a fact of life. IMHO it is a good reason why cards slabbed by reputable companies sell for more.

3. No one says that the seller knew the card was trimmed.

4. This will probably provoke some ire but I do have to differ with those who complain about the seller's ethics. If the listing states there are no refunds and you buy it, you accepted the rule stated. Look at the rules in every major auction; most say no refunds. Why should an ebay consignment seller be any different as long as he is up front with you about the policy? It may be smart for the seller not to PO a buyer by refusing to deviate from a stated rule of the sale but it isn't unethical for him to do so.

What we really need is an ebay rule on authenticity for all sales made through the site.

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Posted By: Al Crisafulli

Your #4 is exactly the reason why I am not going to out the seller. I was interested in opinions as to whether or not I was wrong on the issue, and I received them (thanks, guys) - I am not interested in outing a guy who is apparently a member of this board and also a high-feedback seller. It's not fair to out the guy when he lived up to his own policies.

His listing stated no refunds. It was buried way down at the bottom of the page, in the least conspicuous place it could have been, but it was there. If I were in the seller's shoes, you bet I would have issued a prompt refund, no questions asked. Most other people would, too. Not this guy. It is what it is, I guess. You can still learn lessons in this hobby, regardless of how long you've been in it.

Thanks for the input everyone, I appreciate it.

-Al