t206 polar bear pack

[thehoodedcoder]

did anyone else see this?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/POLAR-BEAR-T...vip=true&rt=nc


i assume so. whats everyones take on it containing a card?

kevin

[steve B]

I can't think of any cards with the Buffalo brand. So no, probably no card.

Steve B

[steve B]

OK, that's wierd.

The first time I clicked the link it went here
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Buff...21168749038%26

Which is a Buffalo brand pouch/pack from a different seller.

The second time it went to the Polar Bear pack.

Maybe, but they conveniently don't show the cancel on the tax stamp. It's at least the right series, but that series was used for a few years.

Steve B

[ScottFandango]

No longer available....

Wonder if it sold offline..

[Cerberus]

The owner of this pack is a member of this Board. Perhaps he'll choose to chime in.

Most of these PB packs you will see offered for sale, have a red-typed overstamp on the "1910" Tax Stamp, dating the pack outside of the time period during which T205's or T206's were inserted. When I spoke with the owner about this listing, he was unable to fully see the overstamp, through the wax/cellophane wrapper.

My own pack is nm+, and also has a red overstamp--although much of it, including the year, is faded. It is highly unlikely that any cards are inside. I'm still waiting to see a PB pack like this, without the red overstamp.

Michael

[steve B]

I doubt you'll find one without the red overstamp. That's supposed to be the cancel. It should include the company and at least a coded date which is usually the month of packing.

The examples here show one on the left that's actually ATC from early 1911.
http://www.rdhinstl.com/tpd/cigarette.jpg

While this one is 1915
http://stampwants-stamps.bidstart.co...7129401/a.html

Steve B

[auggiedoggy]

I noticed that this seller also had Sweet Caporal and Old Mill packs available however they have the "20" indication on them. I thought the packs from the T206 era only contained 10 cigarettes per pack. Perhaps someone knowledgeable in this particular subject can chime in.

Just my $0.02 - Take it for what its worth.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by thehoodedcoder

did anyone else see this?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/POLAR-BEAR-T...vip=true&rt=nc


i assume so. whats everyones take on it containing a card?

kevin

It has to have the right factory number and district number to start with, in order to contain a card. After that it needs to be produced in the time frame the cards would have come in them. The only way to know if those are in order is by examining the pack. If there is no overprint stamped date on the tax stamp, and you can't feel a card through the pack, then there is no way of knowing if a card is in it or not. Even with everything correct I think there would still be a chance of no card. The only proof positive way to know is to feel a card inside it. I had a Pirate pack that I could feel a card in and it was sealed. I have since sold it.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by auggiedoggy

I noticed that this seller also had Sweet Caporal and Old Mill packs available however they have the "20" indication on them. I thought the packs from the T206 era only contained 10 cigarettes per pack. Perhaps someone knowledgeable in this particular subject can chime in.

Just my $0.02 - Take it for what its worth.

Almost all of the cigarette (as opposed to scrap) packs that housed T cards are known to be 10 count boxes. There is an exception or two. Our member Jon Canfi3ld is the resident expert. Maybe he will chime in?

[rdwyer]

It does have the right Factory, District & State info. But without a higher resolution scan of the tax stamp, it's hard to tell. You could take the pouch to a courthouse and ask them to scan it. Everything 419zanzibar69 has sold so far has been non period packs. Unwilling to gamble that much. Not enough info.

[auggiedoggy]

Originally Posted by rdwyer

It does have the right Factory, District & State info. But without a higher resolution scan of the tax stamp, it's hard to tell. You could take the pouch to a courthouse and ask them to scan it. Everything 419zanzibar69 has sold so far has been non period packs. Unwilling to gamble that much. Not enough info.

Based upon the price of the packs in those auctions on eBay, if they were period packs they would have been swooped up long ago! Also the asking price would have been higher, especially for the nice condition they are in.

[rdwyer]

I agree. I would be asking $10,000 if it had the right stuff.

[1880nonsports]

of mixed-up stuff in this thread! Much of the time a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Different stamps for different types and configurations (polar TOBACCO wouldn'thave CIGARETTE stamps) and more..... Overstamping or "cancellation" comes in many colors and sizes. It IS the one of the MOST reliable indicators of when the product actually was hitting the shelves. In this hobby - it seems that quite often on packs and such offered to the hobby the DATE is smudged or missing - I think many times it's been done on purpose when dealing with something that has greater value as a "period" item when sold by knowledgable sellers. It just seems that all too often I can discern the factory and other info and not the year! Uniformity in the loss of clarity on the stamps would be more reasonable. Another huge problem with original tobacco packaging (for the "T" area packages) are the 1909 and 1910 stamps - the former in use for a year - the latter used for 8 years. Add in that tax stamps could be purchased years (and sometimes decades) before they were applied to the packaging - and the puzzle becomes more difficult.
I don't know the seller 419z......... but I wrote him a week or two ago as I was interested in a Kimball pack for my Kimball master set to replace the one I sold to Chad. 419 apparently is a collector, bought packs in England, eBay, and from what I've seen of some of his listings - cards/packs from the recent Tom Caruso - Hunt auction. He seems nice enough and says he has collected packs himself for at least 10 years - as he told me I had sold him a couple sweet caporal packs more than 10 years ago! I don't know him and assume everyone is basically honest and I have no reason at all to believe he isn't. He is upfront in his listings about missing parts and that the accompanying cards are not from that original pack. It just seemed so typical that I did notice that with all the pix he took of the great Polar Pack - the one pic with what should be the WHOLE stamp - the pic was taken along the right side without the all important date that would have been just to the left. I have to wonder why he didn't take the whole picture? Who knows. Always the skeptic (like the TV channel - believe nothing and question everything) it's unusual. Many of his other packs are often missing the "slide" which to me is suggestive of packs that were collected by a different breed of collector - more interested in the label itself and unwilling to deal with tobacco bugs of complete packs (REALLY) and storage problems for something left architecturally complete. Pasting the labels or boxes in an album on a page was easy and acceptible just like any early advertisements like trade crdas, tobacco cards, even soap labels. Many of these hobbies were NOT (and often are still not -like bottle caps, most match books, fireworks, poison labels, and the like are not high value collectibles for the most part - NO ANGRY EMAILS PLEASE as nearly every hobby has "valuable" elements :-) and so the complete package to display with other elements like cards and advertising didn't have a large enough buying base.
FWIW I have actually seen a 1910 polar pack with the ORIGINAL stamp affixed and a 1955/6 cancel. I'm also unsure about the whole onion skin/cellophane thing. In the back of my mind I keep trying to recall ANY cigarette package or pouch prior to 1916 SELLING DATE with such a cover - I'll look into it - I'm no expert but with time and patience I'll figure it out or as often happens - stumble upon it or wait for someone else to do it. I would opine that such a covering for a paper pouch had a specific time frame for it's use that may or may not have fallen into the correct date scheme.
Feeling a pack for a card inside - one of the silliest things I've been hearing about for years (I don't think you are silly Leon if you happen across this :-)). I guess if the moons were correctly alligned and it was a small paper PACK - one might be able to differentiate between what are the internal folding and construction elements as opposed to something else being inserted. Beside cards and silks there might be a redemption or any number of other things included. The Pirate cigarettes specifically were cheaply made foreign packs that were produced in huge quantities and I believe their character cards were inserted over a long time frame. I guess it would be fairly easy to "feel" what might easily be a card inside. I don't think that would be quite as easy a task with these pouches not even figuring in the more-I-touch-it-the-more-damaged it becomes. MRI candidates?
For complete disclosure I just woke up an hour ago (lost much of my ass at late night poker) and saw this thread. All too often my mouth and fingers are engaged before my slower functioning brain and reason catch up so I appologise for the ongoing ramble....
I am not an expert in packs or much else but I have quite a few packs and have been researching certain elements about them this past 15 years. The problem comes when I make a note or observation that I put on a list and tell myself I'll get back to it. Yeah right! I have about a 1000 of those. I think I'm best when I have to address a specific question. When left to my own devices I just go on and on and...... If I've said sumptin really stupid or off-base it could be by accident or I just don't know any better. Please feel free to take me to task or ask me to explain myself more clearly. BTW - I think if the really nice looking PB pouch could be attributed to the correct time frame with the smallest leap-o-faith - it's condition and implied significance would rightly be worth in the 4-6 thousand range......
I know the esteemed Jon Canfield spent quite a bit of energy trying to tie down cards and the producing factories with packing, stamps, and production dates. He did a great job in this niche and produced at least one book on the subject that sits on my shelf. Tha actual packaging has been a relatively minor part of my study and accumulation of tobacco as art (TMS) - so I'm just trying to learn while participating in an area about card collecting that interests me..... Let's hear some more thoughts......

[Bridwell]

+1 on that last post. You can see the edge of a red overstamp in one of the photos but that crucial photo is cut off. The paper covering and the red ink overstamp would indicate to me the pack is later than 1912 based on the other packs I've seen. Based on that the price is quite high to me.

[NYHighlanderFan]

Hi there! I don't come on here much, but did this afternoon and saw this thread.

Yes I received an offer on the unopened Polar Bear that was too good to be passed up on Feebay. The condition of the pack is absolutely superb, which in my opinion made that example worth every penny. And the display case which it rests in is how my entire collection is displayed and preserved. A similar lot of an Old Mill and Piedmont inside an identical display case were absolutely both period, 10's with the 1910 stamps. I have done my best with pictures, pairing up the brands examples with cards of correct factories, explaining their periods in the ATC and if pre or post-deregulation of the ATC, which card series are designated to have been distributed and other known stuff.

Mr. Dwyer has recently picked up a gem Mecca and a very nice Nebo from me off Feebay. I am glad he is happy and we were able to work something out for his collection!

Yes, I was somehow able to find a lot of my 19th century packets over from a collection break in the UK. The Toddy which is for sale now came from there.

[rdwyer]

Thanks for the Nebo and Mecca packs, NYHighlanderFan.

[1880nonsports]

I used to talk with in Mount Hope (since deceased). Do you know of whom I speak?

[NYHighlanderFan]

Who is that, Mr. Moses?