Another bogus T206 box

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Posted By: Richard Dwyer

http://cgi.ebay.com/1910-Sweet-Caporal-UNOPENED-PACK-GAI-EX-5-T206_W0QQitemZ120288683296QQihZ002QQcategoryZ636QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

T206's weren't distributed from FACTORY NO. 30 4TH DIST. STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA!

11 bids and 221 lookers. Be warned!

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

Richard is absolutely correct however I actually wasn't even aware there was a Factory 30, 4th District of NC. I guess there could be but I have never seen a pack from it before. I would have to assume the seller didn't mistype the factory number.

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Posted By: Richard Dwyer

I've seen this same box before on eBay. There's a Factory 42, 4th District, NC. No Factory 30, 4th District, NC. (Sports or Non Sports) Willing to bet the side damage is where the factory number is. (Which you can't make out most likely) I think the last time this guy tryed to sell it, it have different info on the auction.

I'm gonna email him asking for a scan of the sides.

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Posted By: barry arnold

Sorry to hear about the bogus box but must say that i'm pleased that there
are 221 lookers, signifying the sparked interest in packs, which are finding
their place more and more in the vintage baseball card collectors' awareness
methinks.

best,
barry

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

Barry - I agree completely. Just as a little tidbit of info - since baseandtobacco.com went live a few days ago, it's had 1900+ hits (and 880 unique hits). Sure that pales in comparison to a lot of prewar sites but I think there is certainly a trend of more collectors showing interest in "companion" pieces, whether out of simple curiosity or to collect.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

This Sweet Caporal pack is quite interesting, as it is labelled "American Tobacco Company....Successors". And, advertises
VIRGINIA mild tobacco

Now, the Sweet Caporal 460 Factory 42 NC (overprint) T206's are actually SC 460 Fac. 30 VA cards initially printed by the
American Lithograhic Co. and intended for such distribution. However, I think due to ATC's divesture in 1911,, ALC overprin-
ted the 55 - T206's in the 350/460 Series with the "Factory 42 NC" Overprint and inserted them in 1911 packs.

This could be a legitimate 1911 T206 pack. More research is needed before we dismiss this Sweet Cap. pack.

TED Z

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I'm not sure if I got my point across to you in the above post.

I will follow up in my next post with T206 scans to illustrate clearly what I am saying regarding this Sweet Cap pack.
And, why I think it might be a valid T206 pack.
Obviously, the seller's description is incorrect in saying that there could be a "WAGNER.....OR TY COBB.....OR EDDIE
PLANK.....OR J. DOYLE"......as he doesn't really know the make-up of the T206 cards.

TED Z

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

Ted - not sure I follow you buddy but I'll wait for your next posts and see if I can get on track. That being said, I do want to point out that the "American Tobacco Company....Successors" language you reference appears on the packs due to the ATC taking over the production of Sweet Caporal from Kinney & Bros. (I believe in the late 1800's). The successor language is not in reference to L&M taking over from the ATC. I can't remember off-hand but I think Sweet Caporal stayed with the ATC post 1911 and never became part of L&M (unlike Piedmont). I may be wrong about this but I won't know until tonight when I get home and can check reference material.

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Posted By: Marty Ogelvie

When the Zen master speaks, collectors listen...

anxiously awaiting your follow up Ted Z...

martyOgelvie
New York Yankee cards

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Posted By: barry arnold

eager to see more of your argument, Ted.
what really pleases me geometrically is to have you on board with pack
discussions; that's an acquisition of supreme quality.

best,

barry

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Posted By: Richard Dwyer

Got an email back from the guy, and he still claims it's Factory 30, 4th District, NC. Says he will put up scans.

I can't find any cards sports or non-sports that came from Factory 30, 4th District, NC. Would be an unknown Factory, etc., if it's true.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Here goes my illustrational explanation of above post....I hope I've made it clearer.

This Walter Johnson pitching pose is one of 55 Subjects in the 350/460 Series.






The bottom line of the back of this proof card in the scan reads "Factory 30, 2nd Dist. N.Y."
The normally printed versions of this card were never inserted in Cigarette packs. NO such
back exists on the 350/460 Series cards.
Instead American Tobacco overprinted this Factory line with a stylized scroll (as seen on the
rightmost back) and added "Factory No. 42 4th Dist. N.C." at the bottom.

This was done when ATC was being divested (circa 1911) and American Beauty, Piedmont,
and Sweet Caporal Cigarette production was transferred to the Durham, North Carolina plant
(Factory 42).
American Lithograph had in stock many of these already printed cards that were intended for
the Factory 30 plant. Instead of dis-carding all of them, they smartly changed the Factory
line and shipped the cards to N.C. (as an initial interim solution). Subsequently, they printed
Sweet Caporal 460, Factory 42 cards (no overprint).

Now, the connection to this strange Sweet Cap. pack is that this pack could represent this
transitional period in 1911. Therefore, a T206 card could be (or was) in this pack, based on
this transitional scenario.

We should not rush to dismiss this pack of having a T206 card in it....despite the uninformed
rhetoric of the seller.

In any event, it is impossible that a rare Joe Doyle error card, a Plank, or a Wagner would be
found in this pack. At best, you could find a Red Cobb or a CYoung (glove) card.


TED Z

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Posted By: J Hull

There was indeed an ATC establishment identified as Factory 30 in the 4th District of North Carolina. I have a 8-count Sovereign pack, 1909 tax stamp, from it. I think you're quite right though that there were never any cards shipped in packages from that facility. In all likelihood it was a small factory, perhaps a very small one.

Jamie

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

Ted- some interesting points but I'm hoping you can elaborate on something you stated above. You said:

"This was done when ATC was being divested (circa 1911) and American Beauty, Piedmont,
and Sweet Caporal Cigarette production was transferred to the Durham, North Carolina plant
(Factory 42)."

What I find interesting is this... American Beauty and Piedmont were transfered to Ligget & Myers after the break up of the American Tobacco COmpany in 1911. The "new" ATC which survived after the break-up no longer had any ownership of these two brands. However, the "new" ATC retained ownership of Sweet Caporal. I have confirmed this fact in my own records, and also contacted Jim Shaw to make sure this was correct. Jim has the original dissolution papers which show this.

So, I find it interesting that production of these three brands would have been transferred to the same factory as L&M owned two of the brands and ATC owned 1 of the brands.

I actually wonder if the Sweet Caporal were overprinted before the break-up in expectation of production being switched to Factory 42 and then were packaged at a different branch without production being transferred?

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Posted By: Richard Dwyer

GAI shows the following info from their card check service online:

Manufacturer 1909-19 Sweet Caporal N/A
Player TOBACCO PACK
Sport Baseball
Cert Number 10035350
Grade 5

Label shows 1910, makes you wonder what date it really is. Another waste of someone's money getting GAI to look at it.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

In anticipation of the ATC break-up there was most likely "chaos"; and, all the major T-brands were being transferred to
the Durham, NC plant. I recall such "chaos" when AT&T was broken up in 1984.

The fact that there are Sweet Caporal 460 cards printed with Factory 42 NC (not overprinted) tells us that this T-brand
was in NC for a while in early 1911. Because, as you well know, it was a violation of Federal Law to insert premiums adver-
tising different T-brands in Tobacco products.

Also, I think you answered your own ? with this......

"I actually wonder if the Sweet Caporal were overprinted before the break-up in expectation of production being switched
to Factory 42 and then were packaged at a different branch without production being transferred?"

TED Z

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Posted By: Marty Ogelvie

Thanks for info Ted Zen man, J Hull and Jon!  good stuff.

martyOgelvie
New York Yankee cards