OT: Bhutto Assassinated

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Posted By: Fred C

This is the marker for the 100th post of this thread.

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Posted By: JimB

I would hardly consider CNN liberal. They were as complicit in the war as any other network. Middle of the road, now seems liberal.
JimB

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Posted By: Anonymous

THis is just about the most morally bankrupt statement made yet in this thread. Basically you are saying that there is nothing wrong with killing, death and destruction as long as it is those Arabs in the Middle East who suffer instead of us. WHat makes their lives less valuable than yours?
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It is the responsibility of the US government to look out for its citizens safety and security above/before other's safety and security, especially at a time of war.

The bombing of Japan was done to avert US casaulties estimated up to 1 million men for a successful invasion. I cannot remember the number of casualties but Japanese deaths in the two bombings - I think was in the neighborhood of 700K. To the US government their lives are worth less than a US serviceman's life. While the deaths of those 700K people was gruesome, it was better than the deaths of several hundred thousand US military men and women.

The fact that many Arab governments don't really represent (nor care about) their people is a sad fact of life - but it shouldn't change the fact that the US government should represent US interests, ideals, and goals. My personal opinion is that we generally "fight nice" and sometimes too nice. That obviously doesn't include our misguided approach to interrogation of some prisoners.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Anonymous- it was a lot less than 700K. I think a fraction of that number. Not trying to trivialize it, but I think your number is off.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

There were about 200,000 deaths from the two atomic bombs dropped in Japan.

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

I agree completely with your 'fight nice' analogy.....

I'd hate to see the results of WWI,WWII,Korea if we'd had.....

CNN,NBC,ABC,CBS,MSNBC,CNBC,FOX and the other litany of 24 hour stations that we had along with imbedded reporters and the incredible microwave society that we all live in now.

We should all detest war and the results but trying to fight a war with all the cameras rolling has got to be difficult. I can't believe there weren't MUCH worse things than Abu Graib and others from last 5-8 years during Vietnam, Korea, WWI and WWII.....

Still doesn't make them right though........

Sadly......no good answers to these questions..........just hope for something positive to end it all........

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Posted By: Anonymous

Decided to not be so lazy and looked it up....and there were an estimated 220,000 deaths between the two bombings - apologize for my poor memory.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

And how many American lives were saved?

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Posted By: Joann

Joe D - you guys can go in and have a beer, but those of use waiting outside will gather on the patio to sip old scotch and solve the world's problems.

GHG: The value of the thread is not about changing opinion. I think many if not most people have closely-held views on this and probably aren't going to change.

The value is that people are presenting passionate ideas based on thought and reason. It gives us the chance to see how someone can hold an opinion we don't agree with and still be decent and smart and patriotic. I think it's a nice change from what has become the national "dialog" of basically standing on opposite ends of the field making mean faces at each other.

GHG again: I don't think it is at all advised, ever, to blindly support an administration. It doesn't matter who or what party is in office. This country's tradition of skepticism has, for the most part, kept our government in check. I would argue that much of the damage caused by this administration has happened specifically because it had (and still has in some places) such complete and unconditional support of the American people.

T Russo: Good point. I guess a president is deemed "bad" based on many areas of incompetence that may not always be directly comparable. Trashing the economy is different than being flat out paranoid and dishonest, which is then different from simply neglecting important issues.

I still think Bush II will be considered "bad" from a broad basis of budget irresponsibility, getting us into a poorly conceived war and then being unwilling to make the tough and unpopular choices necessary to support it, and the intentional attacks on the Constitution - by ignoring the rights and duties of the various branches of government, and by claiming virtually unlimited "war powers" to unnecessarily strip citizens of important rights.

If I had it my way, his legacy would be that last item and history would hold him out as the president that tried to overturn our tradition of personal privacy and citizen rights.

Joann

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Posted By: Anonymous

And how many American lives were saved?
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We'll never truly know but I believe that I've read various military analysis that stated that the US would have had up to 1MM casualties from an invastion of the Japanese mainlands. That doesn't include estimated Japanese casualties - obviously from the other number I included my memory is somewhat faulty as its been several years since I last studied WWII in depth.

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Posted By: howard

I agree with LetsGoBucs although I would point out that the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki not only saved American lives but also Chinese and Indochinese lives and any lives anywhere there were still Japanese soldiers. They also saved Soviet lives as the they were fighting the Japanese in the north when the bombs were dropped. Even Japanese lives were saved considering how many would have been killed during an invasion of the mainland. The bombings also cut the Soviet Union out of any claim on Japan. Imagine a post-war Japan carved up in the manner of Germany or even a Soviet/US war over influence in Japan. More death and more destruction.

Cheers,

Howard





Edited because I left out a key word.

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Posted By: Andrew

...their lives are worth less than a US serviceman's life. While the deaths of those 700K people was gruesome, it was better than the deaths of several hundred thousand US military men and women.

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This probably appeals to those who also call themselves God fearing Christians. From a tactical perspective of the U.S., of course this was necessary move. But implicit in such action is a belief that a human life within one man made border is worth more than another. This notion is root of this thread, Hiroshima/Nagasaki, and almost every historic atrocity.

"Take your life in your own hands and what happens? A terrible thing: no one to blame." -- Erica Jong

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

of your nation's individual's worth over another is completely rooted in Christianity....I think most, if not all, nations out there would want to protect their own people first and foremost before others. You have the same things happening in non-Christian Africa and from other regions of the world from all periods in history........convenient to blame the Christians as the US is a Christian country with a professed Christian leader.......

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Posted By: Joe D.

I enjoyed the dialog.

If you think less of me because of my viewpoints... well, I am sorry to hear that.
If you think better of me - well, then you obviously have very good taste.


Ah heck... liberals / conservatives..... everyone is welcome to belly up to the bar with me!
This is one heck of a family we have here.


opposing viewpoints and expressing them in a civil way... its a very cool thing.

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

Amazingly, they still cannot confirm a cause of death for Bhutto. Shrapnel, bullet, blunt force trauma-take your pick. You can also take your pick on who killed her, Pakistani gov't, Al Quaida or some other fringe group.

Part of Bin Laden's original plan was to destabilize Pakistan-so far it's working. What a mess.

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Posted By: Andrew

"I think most, if not all, nations out there would want to protect their own people first and foremost before others."
_____________

Maybe that's the problem: here, there, everywhere.

(added quotes)

"Take your life in your own hands and what happens? A terrible thing: no one to blame." -- Erica Jong

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Posted By: Dave S

"I would like my Niece and Nephews to grow up in a world that trusts the United States. A world where people from other nations think of us as something special. That we do things the right way. Right now, because of Bush and Cheney, THAT is not the way it is."

Count me among those that avoid political discussion. I lost a 22 year-old niece in WTC on 9-11. Her Marine fiance was killed when a car bomb blew-up in Iraq 2 years later. I really don't think either of them would much care what the rest of the world thinks. Only wish they had the opportunity to read this thread and re-act...

Joe D., for what it's worth, I applaud your thinking...

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

Because the "mainstream media" has been so biased to the left( a recent survey showed 95% or more voted democrat last election) it has spawned Talk Radio which is largely conservative and the Fox News Network(which destroys CNN in evening ratings.

Jim

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Posted By: Anonymous

...their lives are worth less than a US serviceman's life. While the deaths of those 700K people was gruesome, it was better than the deaths of several hundred thousand US military men and women.

____________

This probably appeals to those who also call themselves God fearing Christians. From a tactical perspective of the U.S., of course this was necessary move. But implicit in such action is a belief that a human life within one man made border is worth more than another. This notion is root of this thread, Hiroshima/Nagasaki, and almost every historic atrocity.

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Well I believe that my statement didn't include any reference to God nor Christians. And you took part of a sentence to quote - the entire sentence was "To the US government their lives are worth less......".

I made no assertion as to whose lives are worth more. My statement is that the US government's primary responsibility in the time of war is to look out for the safety/security of the people of the United States first and foremost. Unfortunately in a time of war this includes killing those that are aligned against the United States.

And I would actually say that the simple thirst for power and conquest is the root of most of the atrocities throughout history. Of the recent atrocities in the 20th century most of them consisted of killings within one's own borders - ie Stalin's purges; Cambodia, China, Rwanda, and even Hitler's attempted extermination of the Jews (although he did it across borders, he started in Germany).

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jim, too bad you don't listen to WABC 770 am in the morning. You'd have heard some pretty interesting talk radio the past two days.

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Posted By: howard

Jeff, I didn't get a chance to listen a couple of days ago. How did it go with Al Sharpton?

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Posted By: Joe D.

Dave S - thank you. I appreciate that.



Jeff L - are you back on the radio? I thought that gig ran its course. Man - I gotta start listening in the mornings!

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- I'm aware that Bill O'Reilly of Fox Noise has a bigger audience than Countdown with Keith Olbermann- but my man Keith is catching up (I am certain you are a big Olbermann fan )

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

Yeah--O'Reilly only has about 4X Keith's audience now. Not many people I like less than Keith.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I think the margin is smaller than that. I don't have the stats but I think it is closer to 3:2. But most smart people are in the minority anyway!

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Posted By: Kenneth A. Cohen

"I have lived in the 3rd World as well and if you think mistrust and dislike for the US has not increased exponentially during the Bush administration, you are the one in La La Land.
JimB"

I'd be curious to know where you lived and in what capacity, for how long, and during what period of time. Also what do you cite in personal observation to qualify the change as "expontential," with which I might quibble. In my view, things such as mistrust and dislike of superpowers fluctuate in history and in certain theaters it has surely increased as you say. So in some ways I agree with you. The statement to which your comeback was addessed was simply a statement of fact as I had observed it over a 30-year career. My point was that too many people talk as if the Bush Administration started with tabla rasa and is thus directly responsible for the current international climate which had embarked on such a couse long before. Of course, I suppose the best way to be loved is to abandon pursuit of national interest. Informed debate on what is in fact the best course of pursuit of national interest is what best serves us, not (in my view)silly accusations and the impugning of motives (e.g. Cheney is evil) of people in power because of political disagreement. I must admit that I find those who invariably see themselves of purer motive than the next guy totally exasperating.

Leon - Admit it, you're thinking about selling banner ads to political candidates and political action committees? Aren't you.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

Its almost exactly 4:1.

Last night in was 12/20

The Factor--2,614,000
Countdown--669,000

It has tightened slightly over past year but its still a landslide.

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Posted By: Andrew

Reality shows usually top the ratings, so the fact that O'Reilly has a higher viewer base means what? When the masses go a certain way, it's prudent to investigate, and often go the other direction.

"Take your life in your own hands and what happens? A terrible thing: no one to blame." -- Erica Jong

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Howard, it was fun -- half the fun was the behind the scenes stuff, getting to know him, etc. Definitely an interesting few days.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- how were you able to find last night's numbers? I'm impressed.

Okay, you win. I'll get you next time!

Oh, last night in was 12/20. I thought that was a ratio of viewers. Got it. Dec 20.

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Posted By: sagard

My biggest problem with the current administration is that they are spending so wrecklessly you'd think they were liberals. The war should have never moved to Iraq, despite what the blind faithful will say it was obvious to millions in this country and to the rest of the world. The protests existed and were well attended, but very few senators had the courage to vote against it despite obvious support from millions:

* Daniel Akaka (D-Hawaii)
* Jeff Bingaman (D-New Mexico)
* Barbara Boxer (D-California)
* Robert Byrd (D-West Virginia)
* Lincoln Chaffee (R-Rhode Island)
* Kent Conrad (D-North Dakota)
* Jon Corzine (D-New Jersey)
* Mark Dayton (D-Minnesota)
* Dick Durbin (D-Illinois)
* Russ Feingold (D-Wisconsin)
* Bob Graham (D-Florida)
* Daniel Inouye (D-Hawaii)
* Jim Jeffords (I-Vermont)
* Ted Kennedy (D-Massachusetts)
* Patrick Leahy (D-Vermont)
* Carl Levin (D-Michigan)
* Barbara Mikulski (D-Maryland)
* Patty Murray (D-Washington)
* Jack Reed (D-Rhode Island)
* Paul Sarbanes (D-Maryland)
* Debbie Stabenow (D-Michigan)
* The late Paul Wellstone (D-Minnesota)
* Ron Wyden (D-Oregon)


I think we need Hilary to win this election for two reasons. First she and Bill will repair our image in Europe and potentially get our allies to actually be allies. Secondly it will force our republicans to refocus what they stand for. Hopefully then after four years an actual conservative will emerge and defeat Hilary preventing any of her "ideas" from effecting us long term.

We are in a tough spot right now. The dems are just as responsible for this mess as "W", they simply had to present someone competent enough to defeat an obviously weak republican. Sadly they couldn't.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

There are websites which publish the daily numbers....and the 20th wasn't even an Ann Coulter night!

Happy New Year.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Sagard is right. Both parties are culpable for this mess. But it's time for a regime change. Eight years of what we've had is more than enough.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Ann Coulter- now there's a piece of work.

And Happy and Healthy New Year to you too!

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Posted By: JimB

Joe D,
I am sorry for re-phrasing your words in a way you would find objectionable. I am sorry for mis-reading your intentions. I think in the midst of this discussion, I let passions get the best of me and I must have read to quickly. I am glad that I mis-read your words. I also consider you a friend.

Though politics can get quite heated at times, I always try to remind myself that good people can disagree.

Fred C.
I have lived in Asia for several years including both India and Nepal, though I have also travelled widely in other parts of Southeast (Thailand and Malasia) and East Asia (Japan, China, Hong Kong,Tibet, etc.). I am an academic who specializes and conducts research in South Asia. I was not a part of the foreign service, though I have a cousin who is. He recently completed a 3 year post in Cairo.
JimB

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Posted By: JimB

"I have lived in the 3rd World as well and if you think mistrust and dislike for the US has not increased exponentially during the Bush administration, you are the one in La La Land.
JimB"

I'd be curious to know where you lived and in what capacity, for how long, and during what period of time. Also what do you cite in personal observation to qualify the change as "expontential," with which I might quibble. In my view, things such as mistrust and dislike of superpowers fluctuate in history and in certain theaters it has surely increased as you say. So in some ways I agree with you. The statement to which your comeback was addessed was simply a statement of fact as I had observed it over a 30-year career. My point was that too many people talk as if the Bush Administration started with tabla rasa and is thus directly responsible for the current international climate which had embarked on such a couse long before. Of course, I suppose the best way to be loved is to abandon pursuit of national interest. Informed debate on what is in fact the best course of pursuit of national interest is what best serves us, not (in my view)silly accusations and the impugning of motives (e.g. Cheney is evil) of people in power because of political disagreement. I must admit that I find those who invariably see themselves of purer motive than the next guy totally exasperating.

-------

To clarify a bit: I lived in Nepal in 91-92 and again in '94. I lived in India in '97-98, and again in 2000. During those times and on other trips to Asia, I have travelled in Japan, China, Tibet, Hong Kong, Maccau, Thailand, and Malaysia. Most of this time was spent as an academic doing research. I had contact with ordinary people from all walks of life as well as academics and the educated elite. I speak Tibetan, Nepali, and some Hindi, so I was able to speak with people in their native tongues, which always helps to loosen things up a bit. And I spoke with friends who trusted me enough to say what they really thought. Of course, my impressions were based on contacts with limited numbers of people, but I can distinctly compare the generally favorable impression of America I received from most, including Muslims, to the generally unfavorable opinion since 2003. The use of torture and the aggressive, unprovoked war in Iraq has seriously damaged America's image abroad in my experience.
JimB

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Posted By: JimB

"I have lived in the 3rd World as well and if you think mistrust and dislike for the US has not increased exponentially during the Bush administration, you are the one in La La Land.
JimB"

I'd be curious to know where you lived and in what capacity, for how long, and during what period of time. Also what do you cite in personal observation to qualify the change as "expontential," with which I might quibble. In my view, things such as mistrust and dislike of superpowers fluctuate in history and in certain theaters it has surely increased as you say. So in some ways I agree with you. The statement to which your comeback was addessed was simply a statement of fact as I had observed it over a 30-year career. My point was that too many people talk as if the Bush Administration started with tabla rasa and is thus directly responsible for the current international climate which had embarked on such a couse long before. Of course, I suppose the best way to be loved is to abandon pursuit of national interest. Informed debate on what is in fact the best course of pursuit of national interest is what best serves us, not (in my view)silly accusations and the impugning of motives (e.g. Cheney is evil) of people in power because of political disagreement. I must admit that I find those who invariably see themselves of purer motive than the next guy totally exasperating.

-------

To clarify a bit: I lived in Nepal in 91-92 and again in '94. I lived in India in '97-98, and again in 2000. During those times and on other trips to Asia, I have travelled in Japan, China, Tibet, Hong Kong, Maccau, Thailand, and Malaysia. Most of this time was spent as an academic doing research. I had contact with ordinary people from all walks of life as well as academics and the educated elite.

I speak Tibetan, Nepali, and some Hindi, so I was able to speak with people in their native tongues, which always helps to loosen things up a bit. And I spoke with friends who trusted me enough to say what they really thought. Of course, my impressions were based on contacts with limited numbers of people, but I can distinctly compare the generally favorable impression of America I received from most before 2001, including Muslims, to the generally unfavorable opinion since 2003. The use of torture and the aggressive, unprovoked war in Iraq has seriously damaged America's image abroad in my experience.
JimB

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jim, in that part of the world did any of the Muslim countries' have their reputations harmed due to the use of torture, abuse of women, genital mutiliation, honor killings, beheadings, sucide bombings, no due process and targeting of civilians in wars? I'm sure you informed all of our brothers across the globe of these atrocities as well -- if they hadn't experienced them first hand themselves.

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Posted By: JimB

Jeff,
The only Muslim country I visited was Malaysia, but I spent the least amount of time there. Muslims are a minority in India (about 15%) and a tiny minority in Nepal (about 2%). To answer your question, yes, I speak condemningly and without reservation about these types of atrocities. Generally speaking, I am appalled by a large percentage of the activities I see perpetuated in the name of Islam these days and am almost more appalled by the lack of more moderate Muslims who are willing to speak out against them. As an American living in a so-called democracy, I feel especially compelled to be a vocal critic of my own government.
JimB

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jim, see? That wasn't so hard. America's not perfect -- but it's better than the alternative.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

this will probably be my only post in this thread, as i am not that into politics, and rarely spend time debating about them...i'd rather chase girls, drink scotch, and travel...

that said, i am VERY thankful of our brave men & women who have fought (and continue to fight) for our country, (hi jay wolt, happy new year to you & your family)...and afford us such freedoms and luxuries...

do i think this war has gone on way too long? yes, but while we have troops fighting on foreign soil, we MUST support them while they're risking their lives.

i'll just simply echo what Joe D. & Jeff have said...i was here on the island of manhattan on 9/11/01...i saw it, i smelled it, i lived it. there was an eerie and frightening sense of fear that lasted for weeks and months (even a little bit to this day). so there was an immediate and fierce call for justice that day...we were pist and very angry.


Best-
MS

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Posted By: Joe D.

no need to be apologize at all.

I know you are a good guy - and like I said - I consider you a friend. I took all comments in this thread (not just yours) as spirited political debate - not anything personal.

I put the smileys in that post hopefully to convey, well, that I was smiling as I typed that portion and was not actually upset.

If anything I typed offended you in any way - I apologize as well.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Hey Michael- great seeing you today and meeting your dad. When he gets back to Pennsylvania, he can tell all his friends about parking in Brooklyn!

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Posted By: MVSNYC

barry, great seeing you as well...sorry we couldn't stay too long, but we certainly enjoyed our day in BK...

p.s. we know all about the horrible parking in BK all too well...i lived there for 4 years!

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Posted By: JimB

"Jim, see? That wasn't so hard. America's not perfect -- but it's better than the alternative."

As much as I criticize the policies of our government (this is a democracy), I love this country. Having lived abroad in two countries and travelled in more than 40, I say with confidence that there ain't no place I'd rather be. After all, any country that produces jazz, baseball, and the Grateful Dead (in no particular order), has gotta be alright in my book.
JimB

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- can we throw the Jefferson Airplane into that mix?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Barry: in a word -- NO.

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Posted By: Kenneth A. Cohen

How about Dylan?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Dyaln and CCR, yes?

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

We are trying to put our point across using logic and common sense.....this doesn't appeal to people who have a "Liberal" mindset.
Their mind simply functions on emotion....which overwhelms their ability to rationally discuss matters of such significance as we are
conversing upon in this thread. Instead, they will switch the conversation to politics at every turn....it's futile, so don't waste your
time and energy.

JOANN....you said....

"I still think Bush II will be considered "bad" from a broad basis of budget irresponsibility, getting us into a poorly conceived war and
then being unwilling to make the tough and unpopular choices necessary to support it, and the intentional attacks on the Constitu-
tion - by ignoring the rights and duties of the various branches of government, and by claiming virtually unlimited "war powers" to
unnecessarily strip citizens of important rights."

You pride yourself as a Law student......therefore, I am sure you are well aware that Lincoln suspended "habeas corpus" during the
Civil War. And, I'm sure that you are aware that FDR took even more drastic measures during WWII. So, I ask you....why can't you
be fair in evaluating George Bush in this War of Terror that we have been involved in since 1991 ?

This War of Terror didn't just start with 9/11/2001, it started with the PanAm Flight bombing over Lockerbie.....Somalia in 1993.....
the WTC bombing in 1993.....our Embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania.....and, the USS Cole bombing in 2000. And unfortunately,
Bush's predecessor did NOTHING to counteract these terroristic events.

Joann....your are an intelligent person, so I expect a rational answer from you to this question.


FINALLY....I'll say to you Net54ers that are far removed from the New York, Washington DC and Pennsylvania areas that were struck
that tragic day on 9/11/2007.....
A very good friend of mine lost his son and my older daughter's best friend and neighbor lost her husband when those towers collapsed.
Try to imagine the terrifying thoughts and feelings of your daughter and her best friend while watching those towers collapse and real-
izing suddenly that you will never see your loved one again and trying to explain all of this to your two young children ! ! ! ! !

DAMN your politics....we have to pull together to prevail in this War of Terror....or have you forgotten already what occurred on 9/11 ?

Or, worst yet.....you don't give a damn ! !

TED Z