Toughest T206's

[drdduet]

Some T206's are much tougher than others, especially the big 4 + 2. Outside of those I have found these subjects to be quite elusive...

1. Ganley
2. Bastian
3. Otey
4. Paige
5. Shag
6. Zimmermann

While the majority of these are the tough Southern Leaguers, I have noticed that show up for sale much less frequently than the others.

For those of you putting together the monster, what has been your experience?

[donmuth]

I think my Bastian was the first Southern League player that I got several years ago when I first started collecting T206's.

Last year, when this same "Tough T206" topic came up, I ran out and picked up a Shag and an Ed Foster since those seemed to be hitting everyone's tough lists too. Glad I did...

It seems that Zimmerman is for sale fairly regularly on ebay. Having said that I am working on the Cubs set and still don't have a Zimmerman myself. A quick survey of some online stores that I've visited recently shows that there are some available though. There's two on ebay now I think.

There's a Ganley on eBay now at BIN of $40.00, a Paige that is way out of my budget at $600, and 5 Bastians too.

I am also a T206 back collector and I find that finding a given type of back is fairly difficult. American Beauty 460 and 350 (no frames) don't show up often it seems and when they do they usually aren't in good condition. Obviously anything from Broad Leaf on up in rarity is hard to find and even more so if you're on a budget. I can't remember the last time I saw a blank back T206 on ebay. I am hoping that I'll stumble upon a Piedmont 350-460 Factory 42 with a low BIN by a seller who doesn't distinguish between different factory variations... been hoping for that for awhile now.

[rfurnish]

I'm working on a PSA 4-5 set. I went through the population reports for every card in the set and ranked the cards in order of the overall # of cards graded for each subject. This turned out very close to Scot Reader's list, with the exception of my not accounting for valuation...in other words, expensive Hall of Famers ended up higher on Scot's list than on mine.

Then I took it one step further, ranking the cards by availability in the PSA 4-5 condition range, since this is where my personal focus is. This is when the names really started to move around on the list, creating some very noticable differences in my ranking vs. Scot's. (By the way, I believe that Scot's ranking is more useful than mine since he accounts for more variables than I do...also, his is based off of several sources, as well as auction activity, wheras mine is simply the PSA population report. His research is also more likely to account for crossovers, wheras mine doesn't).

I probably shouldn't write this since I still need one, but according to my list, the Ganley card ranks #28 overall in terms of difficulty in the 4-5 range. Looking at the recently completed auctions though, the card does appear pretty available in other grades or ungraded condition. It was really interesting to see how far some of the Southern Leaguers fell on the list, while some other cards moved up unexpectedly. I was surprised to see how far the Smith, Chicago & Boston card (I do have that one) as well as the Kid Elberfeld, Washington card fell down the list. Those two don't seem as difficult as I would've guessed. There were several cards which have more availability in sheer numbers as a whole, but moved up the list once only the availability of the 4-5 range was considered. The same can be said of several cards which seem to have limited overall availabilty but can be found in stronger numbers in the 4-5 range for some reason.

This information may be totally useless to someone not focusing on the 4-5 range, but it has definitely changed how I look at approaching some of these cards and what I'm willing to pay, especially for some (but NOT ALL) of the Southern Leaguers.

[frohme]

Hey Donny,

Just visited your site and it brought back memories - specifically Nostalgia World in Memphis. I was in the city from 87-99 and that was one of the the places I'd frequent in as I was collecting from 89-92. I understand they had some problems with the change in the demographics of Summer Ave and were robbed several times, sadly.

Don't know whatever happened to the owner - whose name I can't recall at the moment - or if the store is even still there. I still remember the boxes and boxes of cards and that odd (yet familiar) smell - probably a mix musty cardboard, or the combination of the surrounding machine shops.

Many thanks, and best of luck with T206!
--
Mike

[matthew]

Nostalgia World is still there. And yes, that is a particular section of Summer would not be a good place to hang out at overnight.

[sreader3]

Darren,

1. Ganley
This is one of the "elite eight" subjects from the 150/350 series that was printed in the 350 series ONLY with the Piedmont 350 back, i.e., you will NOT find Ganley with Sweet Caporal 350 or Sovereign 350. That is the reason for the added difficulty. The likely reason that Ganley experienced a truncated print with 350 series backs is that Bob Ganley was traded by the Sens early in 1909.

2. Bastian
Your view of his difficulty is a bit curious--or maybe not. Bastian is more difficult because he is a Southern League subject; however, as a Texas Leaguer he was printed in greater quantity than many (34 to be exact) of the other Southern League subjects.

3. Otey
Now you are talking. Otey is one of the 34 "150/350" Southern League subjects released in mid-1909. As such, he was printed with Brown Hindu, but experienced an abbreviated print run with Piedmont 350, which accounts for his relative scarcity.

4. Paige
See Otey.

5. Shag
See Otey.

6. Zimmermann
Zimmerman is a garden variety 350-only subject. I have not found him to be notably difficult--and in fact had a duplicate of him that I sold last year.

Scot

[T206Collector]

If you are going to look at 4-5 as the relevant universe, it is not surprising that
there would be more Elberfeld's -- more people will submit higher grade scarcities
to be graded than Ganley's of like condition. Ditto HOFers. When considering
scarcities across value classes, it is better to line up like value classes with each other.
The Southern Leaguers is a good example of this because there are 48 of them, they are
each as likely as the other to be submitted, and they are generally fungible among
T206 collectors (putting absurd hoarding based on hairdue to the side).

[drdduet]

Thanks guys for all the comments, it's funny how when I was actively putting the set together those cards I listed just seemed more difficult to obtain in presentable condition. While I knew they weren't exceptionally notable as scarcities I had a harder time obtaining them than some of the known scarcities. Certainly wasn't a suggestion that this list revealed unknown toughies, just an individual's observation while taming the Monster.

[Jantz]

drdduet

I did some research (like RFURNISH has) before going to the National this year. There were 6 T206s I specifically put on my pickup list. I wanted to find and secure those 6 T206s first before purchasing any other T206s for my set. Here they are:

1. Shag Shaughnessy
2. Bok Hooker
3. Joe Doyle (Hands above Head)
4. Ed Karger
5. Hans Lobert
6. Frank Schulte (Front View)

I spent most of the week at the National looking for these 6 T206s. I was able to get 3 of them. I didn't find a single example of Hooker or Lobert. I did find 3 Shaughnessy examples though, but two were in real bad shape & the third was graded with a Hindu back and priced out of my spending range.

Ironically, I bought the Schulte from Ted Z. and when I got home that night, another board member offered me one that he had for sale. So I ended up buying both. One with a Sweet Cap. back and one a Piedmont.

Thats some of my experiences so far with the Monster.

Jantz

[pgellis]

I have been working on "The Monster" for about 4 years now. I compiled a population report using both SGC's and PSA's population report for just Southern Leaguers about a year ago.

I found the 3 scarcest SLers were: Ed Foster, Arch Persons, & Roy Ellam (in that order).

I also found that Jack Bastian is one of the easiest SLers to get.

This thread leads me to wonder what are the toughest "commons" in T206. I know that "common" is a tough word to define with T206, but I would say a "common" does not include: HOF, SL, Variations (i.e. George Brown, Frank Smith, Elberfeld, etc.).

So, what do you think the toughest "commons" are? It sounds like Ganley would be one of them.

[hennessey16]

my vote goes to carl lundgren, Chicago. I've seen very few come up on e-bay. I know their out their but some-one must be hoarding them.

[rfurnish]

T206 Collector makes a valid point about my overly simplistic list as it ignores the fact that cards which are perceived as being more valuable or raritys/Hall of Famers are more likely to be submitted for grading than the less famous guys. I was really trying to determine availability within the 4-5 range more than anything. A more dramatic example is that the red Cobb portrait is easily the most graded card in the set so I'm not really too worried about finding a card like this (that is on the back end of the list) when it comes time for me to pick one up...I'm pretty sure that one will be available. On the other hand, Jake Thielman currently ranks #32 on my list in terms of availability within the 4-5 range. I'm sure that there are plenty more ungraded Thielmans out there that would qualify, but for the time being, it just isn't as available as a lot of other cards in the set, in the condition that I'm looking for. No question that the Cobb is going to cost a lot more, but Thielman is probably going to be tougher for me to find. The Karger and Lundgren, Chicago cards also show up pretty high on my list. So when I'm shopping, if I come across the opportunity to pick up a Thielman, Karger, or Lundgren vs another relatively unknown player who is ranked back in the #300 range....well, it's an easy decision as to which one to get now. I do believe that the Smith, Chicago & Boston, the Elberfeld, Washington, and the Kleinow, Boston cards are pretty overrated. The population numbers on those cards seem pretty ordinary and I see them up on EBay pretty regularly. None of these three have the Hall of Famer factor and given their population numbers, I just can't get real excited about paying a premium for these three...it's hard to justify.

Again, please let me stress that Scot's research is much more complete than mine. My conclusions are just based on one small slice of the overall pie. The research that both Scot and Ted Z. have done regarding this set is amazing...thanks a ton to both of you guys.

[teetwoohsix]

I picked up this Ganley a while back in a GAI holder,sent it to SGC for crossover,came back with same grade-V/G 3,I try to collect in the V/G range or better.I just did an Ebay search,T206 Ganley,and they only had one in an Ebay store Big Hit Sportscards,graded BVG V/G 3,BIN price $600.00,or best offer.Am I missing something here?It did not seem so hard to get,and the Zimmerman was also easy for me to get-those other 4,I do not have,and don't see them offered so much...........

[donmuth]

I don't think you're missing anything. Your SGC 40 Ganley looks nicer than the one on eBay. The eBay Ganley BIN is just way offf. It's a low/mid grade common that maybe is somewhat tougher than average but is nowhere near deserving of the $600 price tag. Unfortunately, it's not the only far out BIN both on eBay and other online stores.

Having said that, there are some good BINs on eBay and elsewhere if you look around. I have watchlisted/bookmarked some T206s that are graded in the SGC 20-40 range that look much better than their grades and are priced at $20-40.

I think about it this way - I could pick up at least 15 of those nice SGC 20-40's for what I'd pay for that one overpriced Ganley! It's not a hard choice when put like that.

[teetwoohsix]

Thanks Donny,I agree with you 100%.That BIN price is pretty absurd,although if the seller can get someone to pay that much,I wouldn't turn it down.
One T206 I think seems to be less available now than a year ago is the T206 Nap Lajoie w/bat.
I'm not saying you can't find one,they are for sale now on Ebay,just not as many as there used to be,and it seems like the price range for them has slightly gone up also.
Of course,the Southern League cards are always more difficult,but I do see them being sold.
How about Royal Shaw,Juan Viola,Foley White,Dolly Stark?
I am not on Ebay as much as I used to be,but when I was,these were a few I'd rarely see put up for auction.
I love The Monster.
Regards,Clayton

[tedzan]

The Carl Lundgren (Cubs)....Bill Dahlen (Brooklyn)....and, Kid Elberfeld (Washington portrait) are the toughest....besides the "Big 6".

Certain T206's such as these three are scarcer than most, simply because they were printed with less T-brand backs. Shown here
are the only 3 backs that Lundgren is found with. Similarly, Elberfeld exists with only three T-brand backs. Dahlen has only 5 backs.
While most T206's were printed with anywhere from 6 to 24 backs....making them much more available.







Furthermore, as plentiful as the ever popular Red Cobb is, it is extremely rare with a SOVEREIGN 460 back. Only 4 of these are known.




TED Z

[judsonhamlin]

I can say that there have been several otherwise common cards that I have found to be very difficult to get with backs other than Piedmont and Sweet Caporal: Bowerman, Byrne, Malarkey, McBride and Sweeney (NY) stand out right off the bat and I'm sure there are others.
Any thoughts on the extent that certain cards were short-printed within a brand/series combo? For example, even though most 350 only cards are known with Tolstoi, are there patterns within that series that show groups of cards were more commonly printed with that back than others?

[ethicsprof]

'bucks' was the key criterion for me.
finding a Cobb bat off that was beautiful enough to make the centerpiece of
my office wall and not kill my wallet was a tough endeavor.
getting this last card in my taming of the monster was made possible by
the mighty fair price offered by an old board member.

best,
barry

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by judsonhamlin

Any thoughts on the extent that certain cards were short-printed within a brand/series combo?

I will leave it to the experts to better answer your question as to which cards and why but this card is a difficult front/back combo for a common card and common back.

[drdduet]

Hey Judson,

That's what I was looking for, while Ted and Scot have educated us on the facts of T206 (Thanks guys!), my intent was to get an idea of what "uncommon" commons were tough to find for other T206 collectors--not necessarily what the research tells us but anecdotal experiences. I was lucky enough to obtain some large lots of T206's so that many of the known toughies were included in those lots, thus I never really had to look for them.

[tbob]

When I put together my T206 set, two tough cards to find in nice shape were Lindaman and the Brown throwing variation pose with smaller pose. Both are tough but very tough to find in EX or better.