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Old 12-03-2004, 10:20 AM
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Default problem backs and values

Posted By: rob

Not sure if anyone has experience with this situation, but I will lob it out there. What does the impact of pencil marks (you heard it, pencil marks) do to the value of a card. I have a couple T213 with pencil intials on the back of them. They are not huge and sit on the top of the card not affecting the lettering or otherwise damaging the card. Clearly, however, it affects the aesthetics of the back and diminishes the worth.

Has anyone ever seen cards with pencil writing on it and what is does to the value?

I know its an odd situation and there are so many other "natural" problems with cards of this age, any thoughts on how "unnatural" damaging is measured?

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Old 12-03-2004, 11:24 AM
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Posted By: warshawlaw

PSA and SGC both labeled them vg, which I generally agree with if the card is otherwise nice looking. If the card has significant wear, call it good at best. If the writing is on the front and affects the image, fair to good, or poor if there are other significant problems.

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Old 12-03-2004, 11:41 AM
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Posted By: Scott

It appears to have some erased writing in the blank area below the biography:

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Old 12-03-2004, 01:59 PM
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Posted By: leon

I would give it a 30 but it would probably only get a 20 with the erased pencil. Depending on the condition of a card, pencil marks on back will lower it 1-3 grades, imo....obviously a nrmt-mt card would be lowered more (technically and unfortunately)...Each company has parameters and the lower the grade the less it loses.......regards

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Old 12-03-2004, 02:44 PM
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Posted By: warshawlaw

stains only, good. stains and writing, fair.

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Old 12-03-2004, 02:54 PM
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Posted By: Greg Ecklund

Is that the Cicotte that Mike Wheat had for sale?

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Old 12-03-2004, 03:58 PM
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Posted By: Scott

...it is.

But I didn't post to argue with his assessment (vg+) - his front scan was clear and although he did not mention writing on the back, any time a back scan is not included in a dealer auction, I assume writing - if it had been any more significant I would have asked for a refund. As is, I'm pleased with the card and the price paid was only a little bit high.

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Old 12-03-2004, 04:05 PM
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Posted By: Greg Ecklund

Just asking because I originally ordered it from Mike, but returned it because of the writing on the back - it is a nice card, but writing on the back is a pretty much automatic return for me.

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Old 12-03-2004, 04:13 PM
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Posted By: Joe_G.

SGC has explained the following very general rules with me. In each case below, the grades represent the highest possible on an otherwise clean, even NrMT card.

Any mark by a pen or pencil, even if only 1/4" long will grade no better than SGC50
One line of writing (such as a name) will grade no better than SGC40
Two lines of writing no better than SGC30
Three lines no better than SGC20
Four + lines and you're down to SGC10

I recently had a handful of otherwise beautiful OJs grade SGC20 - SGC30 because of the writing on the back. With PSA, some of my SGC20 - 50 cards would grade much higher with an MK notation (mark). I wish SGC would offer similar grading on blank backed cards such as OJs.

I will continue to use SGC however, even if it means lower average grades.

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Old 12-03-2004, 05:30 PM
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Posted By: Scott

I was admittedly upset to find the writing, especially since he had mentioned "writing on back" in some of his other auctions. For this reason, I hoped not to find a "messy" back. It's now a bit more disturbing since you brought this to his attention already but it was probably just an oversight on his part. He's a good seller and I'm sure he would give me a refund if I asked, but like I said, I expected unadvertised problems and I'm still happy with the card.

I won't necessarily return a card for writing or paper loss on the back, but if I usually will if I don't think it will grade. The exception is this Reulbach that came in a "NM-MT" PGA holder - I figured it was trimmed, and paid accordingly...I have a tough time spotting trims on CJ's, so I sent it to SGC and they verified it. I told the seller as an FYI on PGA and he offered a full refund, which I did not want. All I'm looking for is full honesty from sellers, especially dealers. Giving me a quick refund doesn't cut it - they are making their money off the people who either miss the problem or don't want the hassel of returning cards.

For those unfamiliar, the following is what you get back from SGC when a card is trimmed - there is also a check-list on the back indicating "Trimmed","Altered","Counterfeit" or "Other/Comments". In this case "Other" was checked along with the comment "Evidence of trimming side edges". Indeed, it measures "narrow".

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