If You Can Sell It Here, You Can Sell It Anywhere

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Posted By: bruce Dorskind

Now that so many Board Members have made the long journey
home from rural America, i.e. Reading, it is time that we planned for
a major annual show in Manhattan.

New York is the center of the financial world; the center of
the television sports world and the most visited city in America.

A sophisticated and elegantly planned event which is
promoted properly will draw thousands of interested
baseball fans, collectors, potential collectors and
investors.

In fact, next year the Museum of the City of New York
will feature a 6 month exhibit entitled "The Glory Days
of Baseball in New York 1947-1957" The exhibit, which
will open in the late spring, will be promoted nationally
and will attract thousands of visitors. A perfect marketing
tie in would be with the first annual Manhattan show.

We have spoken at some length recently with several
Hedge Fund friends. Together, we may start a collectibles
Hedge Fund and allocate $25 million to sports collectibles.

A New York show would be an ideal opportunity
for those dealers and collectors with rare and expensive items to sell
them to a new audience that can easily afford to acquire the very
best that the hobby has to offer,

Such a show could also include a special limited live auction
where the minimum reserve on every item could be $1000 .
Perhaps there can be a charity aspect to the auction as well
and we create a special auction where a number of companies
participate. More on this later.

In order to succeed the show will have to be held in apporpriate
venue, like the Park Avenue Armory. Furthermore, it is our
belief that such an event should focus on rare, high end materials.
Certainly such a show should not be loaded down with $2.00
cards and the latest baby toys.

With Wall Street's assistnace, we could also have a Thursday night
preview with tickets at $250 each. Said funds would go a major
charity. At such an event we would be able to attract athletes
and sports personalities.

It would also be great if we could ask Keith Oberman and other
news, sports and entertainment personalities could help
with the planning.

Would welcome your comments.

Bruce
America's Toughest Want List

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Posted By: Greg

"Would welcome your comments."

Although I'm very new to the hobby, and while I see nothing wrong with a show in Manhattan, the manner in which this is being approached involving hedge funds, wall street, and the like, seems deplorable to me. That is just my opinion and therefore my "comment", for whatever it's worth.

Keep these items in the hands of the collectors, who love the hobby for the hobby and the history of the game not some impartial "investor".

Off to work, have a good day.

Greg

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Posted By: leon

With all due respect we think your plan will further alienate the masses. Most collectors just want to relax and have fun. We are so sick of all the talk about "money". We are not naive and have more money into our cards, relative to other resources than we should, but continued talks of the money aspect just aren't that fun....at least not to us (whoever "we" are?). Our vote counts as 1 (I guess). We hope you have a happy holidays.....

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Posted By: Joann

Bruce,

I've been kind of watching as you've mentioned a Manhattan (or with Barry's input, a Brooklyn) show in the past few weeks. I think I would go to a toothpick show if it were in Manhattan, so the comments really had my interest.

Then I scanned your post and saw something about an auction with minimum reserve of $1000. And not littering the show with $2 cards and baby toys. Not that I want or need a lot of $2 cards and baby toys, but if the intent of that comment was to keep the lower-end riffraff collectors out, then I guess I'm out.

Manhattan or Brooklyn - good. Black-tie affair - bad.

Just my opinion. But then I'm not the one that's actually doing anything to get it togehter - you are. So my vote should count a little less, I suppose.

Joann

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Posted By: bruce Dorskind

The concept that we developed would enable the Hobby to showcase
its very best items and make it possible to hold a show at a venue
which is beautiful and distinguished and one which would attract
an entire new crowd of potential collectors and investors.

Can you imagine having a 17th century furniture show or an impressionist
art show at a venue like Willow Grove or asking collectors to drive 30 miles
on a two lane highway?

The hobby should welcome new collectors and investors...

My sense, Leon i,s that you would like to limit access to the best material.

We will increase demand for the best items and uncover many, many additional
rare items if we expand the scope of the hobby

While auction sales of a few baseball houses are impressive, they are dwarfed
by coin sales. Remember 150 million Americans collect coins...probably
less than 5% of that number collect baseball cards. That spells opportunity!!

Why not expand the market.? It's not about money...it's about creating new
opportunities and looking at things in different ways.

Let's raise the bar and have at least one event a year which showcases the
very best (and most expensive material).

Bruce

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Posted By: Kevin Cummings

Living in northern New Jersey and having just made the trip to the show in Mayberry, ummmmm....Reading, I heartily support the concept of a show in New York City. I think it is laughable that there isn't already a show there on a regular basis.

But all the grandeur you are trying to attach to your proposal certainly might make people with a shoestring collecting budget feel a bit alienated. The hobby is all about the cards.

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

While on the surface a comparison between coins and cards might seem appropriate, it really isn't. Coins as a whole have been minted for millenia; cards (as we know them) since 1880's or so. Widely distributed coins have been minted in the US since the late 1700's with literally (as Carl Sagan would say....) billions and billions made. They've also been collected far longer and far broader than cards. We understand the comparison, but we don't really think we agree with it. As for a show in Manhattan, we think it's a wonderful idea but we also believe that INCLUDING more than EXCLUDING makes more sense. We guess we live in rural america (Louisville, KY) and might find a 2 lane highway to New York City somehow for a show as we've been to New York City many times. We welcome any large show and we try to attend when we have the ability to go away from our family and our other varied responsibilities....

We wish you the best of luck in your endeavour......

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Posted By: Josh Adams

"Why not expand the market.? It's not about money...it's about creating new
opportunities and looking at things in different ways.

Let's raise the bar and have at least one event a year which showcases the
very best (and most expensive material)."

So which one is it? Is it "not about money" or about the "most expensive material?" Kind of confused.

As far as having a show with a $250 preview night, that seems like it wouldn't draw that many people that attend card shows, and if you are having a show in Manhattan, why not try to have the show at a large venue, and with attendance to rival the National?
On another note, more people collect the $2.00 card than the very best expensive highest grade whatnot.

Good idea though, having a show in Manhattan. I would have to seriously consider making the trip.


Josh

Go Go White Sox
2005 World Series Champions!

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Posted By: barrysloate

Bruce- if you are planning to bring hedge fund managers into this it is everything about money. I wish you would take a chill pill, relax, and enjoy the hobby. This money and power thing causes more problems on the board and just isn't worth it. You are just creating animosity between the haves and have nots, and these kind of threads always end in rancor.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I'm all for a Manhattan show, right there in the center of arogance and obnoxiousness. Exactly the types of folks you describe could go, lord only knows if they'd keep their word on anything.

And as for the hedge fund, who would they sell to one day? Seems to me a good way to get some nice items out of the hands of collectors, and into the hands of some entity that could one day only sell to another such group, or maybe to a museum. Museums are nice, IF they're going to display an item. Too many items end up in storage, never seen by the public. I have a few items that might qualify for hedge fund purchase, but I'll never sell them to such a group directly, my items would be on the "world's toughest to buy list" as far as you and your group would be concerned.

Your plan would be an excellent opportunity for some collectors to sell some high end items to the folks you describe, and the fund you propose. It would be good for those sellers.

So you go for it. I'll remain here in the rural, distant, poor, rancorous, unenlightened hills of Kentucky, a place where someone's word is still to be trusted.

Frank.

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Posted By: cmoking

Bruce, let me know which hedge funds you are talking to please. Because I'd like to advise my hedge fund investing friends (in case they have money with those hedge funds) to get their money the heck out of those hedge funds.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Would this be black tie? I hate the idea of getting mustard on my tux.

-Al

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

don't have anyone drinking 'haterade' around here..........

Al, get your tux scotchgarded or simonized..........at least the mustard would be grey poupon dijon.....kinda like the commercials....

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Posted By: Richard Simon

I agree with most of the posts here about "hedge funds", "Wall Street", etc.
However, I think the idea of a Manhattan show is a great idea.
I used to set up at the National Pastime/Armenian Church show, in Manhattan, and it was a VERY successful show. It attracted dealers from all over the country and was always well attended.
I don't set up at shows any longer (love the Internet and the mail order business) but I would certainly strongly consider setting up at a show in Manhattan (considering that is where I live).
---

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

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Posted By: Judson Hamlin

What Barry said.

Y'know, when the revolution comes, at least I won't be first on their list

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Posted By: T206Collector

As much as I would love to see a National take place in Manhattan, I totally disagree with the approach of the initial poster on this Board.

However, as a person who lives near and works in Manhattan every day, I take extreme exception to New York city being called the "center of arogance and obnoxiousness" and not being a place "where someone's word is still trustworthy." There are arrogant, obnoxious and untrustworthy people everywhere -- even in Kentucky.

If you would like to make a point about the unwelcome stereotypical attitude of a poster, your argument would be more persuasive if you would keep your own stereotyping out of the equation.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

To you sir, and the other truthful folks of Manhattan, I do appologize. And I appreciate and am grateful for you pointing out my overzealous comments to Mr. Dorskind's proposals. I fear that my interatction with him has unduly tainted my perception of the citizenry of Manhattan. Thank you for helping me narrow my focus. And again, I beg your forgiveness. I'm unaware of you having been arrogant, obnoxious, or untruthful.

F W II

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Posted By: Robert S

There used to be some great shows here in New York in the 1980s -- the Armenian Church show comes to immediate mind.

A few years ago, the folks who run the White Plains show threw a large show here in the city and it did OK -- with a mix of high and low end vintage and modern material.

In fact, there's been talk among some of the White Plains and Ft. Washington dealers who used to do the 1980s NYC shows about having another show here in the city.

One dealer in particular, who many of you know (who used to do shows here in the 1980s and still hits Ft. Washington, the Shriner's show and White Plains), has been exploring organizing such an event.

Of course, to make a show work he's talking about doing it the way big shows have always done it -- many dealers selling 1950s-current stuff, as many Vintage (pre-war) dealers as possible, and top flight autograph guests who would draw well (think Willie Mays caliber not Bob Watson and Ed Kranepool who just did the White Plains show two weeks ago).

He never mentioned hedge funds, and I, for one, am glad.

By the way, if you've ever attended the book fairs in NYC you know the prices at the Park Avenue Armory are plain stupid when compared with the exact same items being sold at the Lexington Avenue Armory and the Greenwich Village book shows. I would rather be downtown or in midtown and buy two cards or books for the same price as one on Park Ave.

The obstacles to a NY show are well-known, however:

1) Dealers from out of town don't want to pay NYC hotel prices.
2) Unionized venues (extra charges to load and unload)
3) Parking issues (especially for dealers)
4) Higher rent for the venue itself means higher booth charges
5) Local advertising costs (think Daily News and NY Post)

Of course, The National could more easily hit major cities (NYC, Boston, San Francisco, etc.), but those guys are REALLY cheap when it comes to costs...

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

that's very 'judicial' of you......

Even though I'm also a Kentuckian....I have spent MUCH time in Manhattan and find it one of my favorite places away from Kentucky, who MUCH of the known world has some ill-conceived thoughts about as well. I've found many of the stereotypes of New Yorkas to be incorrect and overall it's a great place. Other than getting sideswiped by a NY taxi who later drove off and getting a parking ticket in Greenwich Village, Manhattan is one of my favorite places. My 14 year old wants to be a lawyer and live in Manhattan (something you don't hear of too much) and I'm hoping he makes it so I have a place to visit in retirement!

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Posted By: Bob Pomilla

Living in Manhattan, the couple of miles I would have to travel to this show would be too far. Hedge funds my ---.

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

Will people have to bring proof of their net worth to be admitted? What is the minimum requirement?

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Posted By: Jay

Bruce--IMHO, you have a knack for bringing out almost unanimous opposition to even good ideas. The thought of a high end auction is nothing new--Siegels has had their rarities auction in stamps for years. It is not a hedge fund or Wall Street auction; it is an auction of the best lots that they accumulate over the year and then sell on one date. It is very popular and very well attended and generates alot of publicity. Similar auctions have happened in the past--remember the Copeland and the Halper auctions both took place in N Y City. Proposing a N Y City show is a good idea. Proposing a N Y City show that is by definition exclusionary is not.
My suggestion to you--lose the "we" unless you are heading to the mens room and then use several.

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Posted By: dstudeba

I have no problem with hedge funds, or Bruce's original idea. I however do agree with King and wouldn't invest in it. Personally I don't think the market is liquid or large enough for a hedge fund of any meaningful size.

That said, I could always be wrong and would enjoy the show or at least the catalog.

Edited to add : I think Bruce trying to promote a part of the hobby is good. Though it might not be a part that I am involved in, I am not going to rip him because of it, or because I only dress up for weddings and funerals.

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Posted By: T206Collector

Thanks Frank and Tom. I just feel that there is plenty wrong with Bruce's initial post that can be shown without resorting to the same kind of stereotypical rhetoric that he resorted to.

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Posted By: Chad

I would very much like a Manhattan show. I hate leaving the island. A couple of quick points:

1. I'm was born in Tennessee, raised in California and went to school in Mississippi and Florida and now live in NYC. I've found there's a pretty equal ratio of a-holes and good people in all places. Even Texas where my brother lived for many years. (kidding!)

2. I have a dreary job at a brokerage firm--back office work, yay!--but in my work I interact with many rich people and I ahve to say, rich people seemed more interested in art and antiques and fast cars. Now, obviously, there's a lot of wealth on this board, but you guys seem more the exception that the rule. A card that sells for 100k in our hobby is a big deal, but pieces of art go for 100 million dollars. All in all, we're pretty low rent and thank god for that or I would be buying reprints and 87 Topps. I can understand why people like Mr. Dorskind want to expand the number of wealthy folks who collect baseball cards--increased demand etc etc--but I just don't see it happening. I have to admit I'm prejudiced against the extremely wealthy jumping in, though, so I could be wrong. My problem with it would be that the cards would become simple commodities devoid of their historical context or nostalgia. They would become items of interest to these new wealthy collectors SOLELY because of the their value. This rubs me the wrong way. Again, I'm not attacking wealthy collectors in general--there are lot of great, great collectors are wealthy and that's a good thing, and who's to define who's wealthy anyway. I may not be expressing myself well here so I'll apologize in advance if I haven't. So, to sum up

Rich + knowledgeable is good
Poor + knowledgeable is good
Rich + not knowledgeable + hedge funds is bad
Manhattan show is good
I'm a Manhatanite and I am good!

Peace out, y'all

--Chad

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

If this chatroom were on usenet Bruce would get an award for best fisherman because he routinely throws out delicious bait that is gobbled up by the masses.

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Posted By: bruce dorskind

NYC Responds

Our idea was to have a show at a venue that would
attract people outside of the hobby-people who love
baseball and people who are capable of investing
considerable funds in the hobby.

As for the Book Fair comment, the Armory show is a very
profitable venture for the dealers and attracts a cadre
of world class collectors, many of whom don't attend the
other shows

As for minimum on lots at an auction...the idea was to have
an auction, as Jay suggested, of the very best material
which would be limited in scope.

We are certain that all the Board Members realize that the
average lot in the last REA auction exceeded $5000 and
the baseball card and memoribillia Mastro lots (don't track
balls and bats) also average well in excess of $5000.

The $250 a night preview was strickly for charity...and nearly
every other collectibles specialty area does this.

It amazes me how upset Board Members feel when a whole new
set of ideas are presented. While card collecting is a hobby
it is also a business, and the number of items that are available,
are in part available because they command such high prices.

I The hedge funds and private investors will come and you can either deal with the now or wish you had.


America's Toughest Want List
Bdorskind@dorskindgroup.com

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

We think we can almost envision the ad which will run in the Robb Report:





-Ryan

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Posted By: Josh Adams

"It amazes me how upset Board Members feel when a whole new
set of ideas are presented. While card collecting is a hobby
it is also a business, and the number of items that are available,
are in part available because they command such high prices."

Bruce,
I don't want to speak for everyone, but I don't think it's that board members are upset at new ideas, it's more that your demanor, tone, and overall presentation is a turn off. It has that air to it of snobbery to it, which could upset people.

Also, collecting is a business to some, not all. I know several people who just collect to collect. The fact that money is exchanged for our precious pieces of cardboard does not mean that everyone views it as a business. You may, and that's fine, I am not knocking your collecting interests. But you might want to give the whole "we" thing a rest.


Go Go White Sox
2005 World Series Champions!

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Posted By: Chad

I don't know guys, why would hedge funds want to get involved in cards? The funds our firm works with have portfolios worth hundreds of millions of dollars. Why would they want to deal with cards when the market is volatile and, more importantly, it would be pain in the arse to store them. More importantly, though, could a hedge fund get its hands on enough high end cards to even make it worthwhile? And, if they do manage to gobble up all these cards, who are they going to sell them to since, in the act of gobbling up the cards they are going to drive the market up to a point where the hobby is going to lose a lot of people? Wouldn't it be easier for a hedge fund just to invest in Indian communications companies or Italian Treasury notes or Swedish Kroner or GM something? This is a serious question--some of you guys on the trading or analysis end should feel free to help me out. I, however, would love to get a job "clearing" baseball cards rather than Treasuries or options or foreign equities. Talk about a dream job...

--Chad

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Posted By: Anonymous

we agree with Kevins Cummings...but would likely dig up some of the loot in the back yard and head on down to see what you city slickers are made of...Gold or Silver?

and thanks for the heads up on the Museum exhibit...sounds like it would be worth a trip.

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

who are very close to the hedge fund folks and I bet there's not many (more than 1) that would think those in the hedge fund world would jump on high end cards.....

Also....I don't have a bone to pick with you Bruce (or those other people you count yourself part of--you know....the WE, OUR, US, etc) but the new ideas are ALWAYS welcome. This board is a hotbed for ideas. It's just the condescending tone that yours are presented with that turns off so many people on this board. Not only the people who have LESS money than you but also the people who have MORE money than you.

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Posted By: Cobby33

IMO, the only people who could (a) afford to and/or (b) be interested in, such a show, would be the same people who specialize in high-high-high-end material. Once again, apples & oranges. You are not going to attract mainstream or even high-end collectors with such criteria - "we" are in a whole different league - almost to the point of collecting different things.

Personally, I would avoid such an event, as it sounds like it will be full of people like the folks I work with (who have too much money). I spend enough time avoiding them - I certainly wouldn't pay $250 to be with the same kind of people (acknowledging, of course, that there will probably be "some" down-to-earth people there).

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Posted By: David Smith

SNOBBERY !!!

That is what this sounds like to me. It's not about the cards, it's about who you are, who you know and how to get a black tie event together so you can hob-nob some more.

If you think card shows (or the lack there of) are bad in NYC, try coming to Indianapolis. Most of the card shows and shops have stopped and/or gone out of business. The ones that are left mostly have shiny new crap. "Vintage" to the ones that are left are cards from the 1950's.

The National only comes to Chicago (a 3 hour drive) or Cleveland (at least a 5 hour drive) every other year. You New Yorkers have shows that are both closer to you and more often, yet you still complain. Also, if you don't feel like driving, you can get on a train and be in Boston, Philadelphia or Washington D.C. within a few hours. An Amtrak train from Indianapolis to Chicago takes MOST of the day to get from one city to the other.

Even if I had the money, I would NEVER attend a show in NYC because of the "better than thou" attitude that is being vividly displayed with the original post.

David

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Posted By: Brian

"We have spoken at some length recently with several
Hedge Fund friends."

Who is we?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Great idea Bruce.

The idea of having a show in NYC is an excellent one.

Since it is in NYC which is more expensive than most areas it should carry prices that are higher than other areas.

Every business is segmented. You can have low-end shows, mid-tier shows and high-end shows. If there was a show in NYC major dealers would gladly pay the price of higher lodging, transportation, etc. But it would have to be marketed as an upscale show in order to achieve this. $250 could still be a tad high but I think you would get a good size crowd at $100-$150 if it were marketed correctly.

Jim

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Posted By: DR

As long as a show created awareness and was able to generate a substantial charitable donation, the idea does not seem bad at all. I am curious if Bruce could pull off such an undertaking. Imagine viewing so many super high end cards and memorabilia in one place. It would be like the National condensed. I might even be interested in a table and taking a trip to NYC. Hopefully hedge fund, private equity and mutual fund principals / managers / associates show. Even the stock / bond brokers are OK. These guys would feel right at home with all of the opportunistic activities taking place in our 'hobby'. My resume will be ready to distribute too and maybe some early stage investment opportunities and/or red herrings. In all seriousness, I am shocked by the backlash. If you are able to pull this off Bruce, please let me know. This sounds much better then a trip to Cleveland. It is not all about the cards or money to me! Thank you. David

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Posted By: John S

Bruce,

When card collecting becomes "business" to me it will definitely be time to find a new hobby. While it is impossible to have a $0 collection (unless one has no cards) I try not to focus on the $$. I cannot say that I would welcome a price crash (as many have spent significant money building their collections) but it would certainly be interesting to see many investors dumping their "portfolios" of cards.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

hmmm, sounds interesting...as a native new yorker, i love the idea of having a big show in my backyard, but not sure about the whole upscale, exclusive idea behind it...and this is coming from someone who collects T206 8's & 9's...how about a good old fashioned baseball card show in manhattan? doesn't need all the bells and whistles, just a cool venue...being a furniture designer, i goto the armory shows, and the pier shows many times a year...the best ones, are the ones where it is just the basics: tables and items (whether it be antique furniture, art or cards, less is more.



i used to goto the old show at the church, but i agree a new updated Manhattan show is needed, maybe at the javitz, lower level?

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Posted By: Bob

We don't mean to speak for everyone here but we feel that the backbone and heart and soul of the hobby is the collector who is in it for the love of cards, not to embellish his stock portfolio. There are a lot of collectors here whose net worth is sufficient to buy only the best of cards but they never act condescending to those who can't. We don't give a tinker's dam for those who are in the hobby only to impress themselves and others, give me a guy or gal who literally loves cards, the hobby and collecting cards and sharing "war" stories with each other any day to those who are only interested in cards as a means to an end, i.e. financial elitism.
Besides, we think that with increased information as to card's worth, collectors who buy Boston Garters Mathewson cards for $1000 from unknowledgeable people and then chortle on video that they turned around and sold it for $67,000, would want to keep the unknowing from learning how much their property is worth.
We would like to see a national show in New York though and anything which might benefit charity is admirable, just come down off the old high horse, as folks around here are prone to say.
Just our 2 cents worth...

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Posted By: JimCrandell

I have never seen a person in my life that collected cards that did not love the hobby and love their cards and certainly noone who collects for "financial elitism". The whole notion that affluent people love their cards less than the average Joe is ridiculous. In fact, based on affluent people I know know they love them more.

Here Bruce comes on and has a great idea--a high end show in nyc targeted at the affluent collector and the high end dealers that serve them with charities making out well and it turns into another thread about class warfare.

Jim

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Posted By: bruce Dorskind

Bob

With regard to the Boston Garter Matthewson.we asked the seller what he
wanted. He said four airline tickets to Europe...in those days the total
cost was about $1600. We happily sent him the tickets.

$1600 at that time was the most money ever paid for a Boston Garter

So try not to twist the facts.

FYI, we have collected rare cards in the very best condition for 30 years..it is
because we love the hobby and the history of the cards..but there is nothing
wrong with earning a profit when one decides to either sell or upgrade
his/her collection

We are sure you often go from table to table at card shows telling people
they are asking too little for their cards.

Bruce

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Posted By: Joann

I love Manhattan. It's one of my favorite places to visit and if you shop around you can find nice midtown hotels that don't cost an SGC 40 E93 per night to stay there. I would love a show in Manhattan.

But if it's for the blue-blood set, maybe I'd go anyway. I'll just grab a 40-oz and nasty hot dog from a street vendor and stand outside on the sidewalk and watch as all 15-18 people show up.

So on top of the other comments ... I'm not so sure it wouldn't flop. Vintage cards aren't that broad in the fan base area, and when you subdivide that to include only those with serious money, I think the total audience becomes very small.

And as to the "we" thing. I've noticed lately that when Bruce talks about cards, purchasing cards, going to card events, etc, he uses "we". But when he talks about himself, where he's from, things he likes or dislikes or disagrees with, he uses "I". Personally I don't have a problem with that. If he wants to use "we" in a specific context that has meaning to him, and that may involve people I don't know about, then I see that as different than just a general universal use that feels like an affectation.

Just my opinion.

J

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Posted By: Chad

"The whole notion that affluent people love their cards less than the average Joe is ridiculous. In fact, based on affluent people I know know they love them more."

Who the hell is saying the affluent can't love their cards? Certainly not the many affluent people who ahve repsonded to this thread. And if you think you have a higher regard for your cards than I do for mine, simply because you paid more for yours, then, geez, I really don't know what to say except that it might be the single most jackass thing I've ever read on this board. Hopefully I'm misunderstanding you. If not, then I think you've really dropped your shorts and I can understand why you think everything is "class warfare".

--Chad, already regretting hitting the respond button on this one

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

sounds like an interesting idea to me. I probably could not afford to do much more than attend and preview, but it seems worthwhile to me, especially if charity was involved and more of the hobby's gems were up on display, whether or not they were up for auction. I am certain that there is a great deal of simply wonderous material in the hands of collectors who infrequent or even avoid auctions. If by chance they feel more comfortable with an upscale, cosmopolitan setting and would prefer to participate there rather than elsewhere, so be it. If not, then the event will be a bust that's either scrapped or modified. Personally, I have no problem using such an event as an excuse to go to New York.

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Posted By: Bob

Bruce we apologize for stating the purchase price was $1000, when it was actually $1600, our bad and no I don't go from table to table at shows telling sellers their cards are selling for too little because anyone who sets up at a show generally has a pretty good idea of what cards sell for.
Jim, the post was not intended as a diatribe about class warfare, sorry if you thought so. I fully understand that some collectors are obsessed with owning the nicest possible cards of each issue and I certainly don't begrudge them their passion. What I do object to is a condescending attitude that those who collect cards which might be low or medium grade somehow fall in to a different "category" of collectors. It is not so much a question of delineating between the "have's" and "have nots" as in just accepting that in our hobby there are those who are extremely passionate about the hobby and their cards but can't afford PSA 9s on prewar cards. I don't gripe about Hal Lewis because he can afford cards in conditions many of us can't, indeed Hal is a hell of a nice guy and has never uttered a comment which I consider to be condescending to those who can't. There are a lot of collectors like that and I know your collection of high grade cards is enviable yet I don't remember any comments you have made which border on condescension. That's all I am trying to say.
The backbone of the hobby is made up of the vg collector who loves his/her cards. If that group ever disappeared, the hobby would suffer immensely.
It is possible to have a great collection without trumpeting it. Many consider my collection to be very nice but I know there are better and there are collectors who don't even know about this board who have collections that make mine pale in comparison. Still my collection gives me pleasure and I don't have to throw it up in to anyone's face.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Bob,

If I sounded like that I am sorry--it just seems to me that there are all these posts about people in the hobby just for the investment side of it and these must be the people that are spending this crazy money on high end cards.

My point is I know personally many of the people who are spending this money to buy high end vintage cards and they absolutely love the hobby.
They are extremely knowledgeable about the cards, the sets and like to buy stuff that is in high end condition and thanks to their hard work and good fortune they can afford it.

Everyone collects what they like--I don't think people come onto this board to brag about their collection. I come to increase my knowledge and to discuss serious issues in the hobby. People will misinterpret this but for example I do not agree that the vg collector is the backbone of the hobby. I think this has changed. I think the psa 8 collector who loves his/her cards is now the backbone of the hobby and the hobby would suffer more from losing this group.

Jim

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Posted By: Rhys

Bruce

I bet you can get the State of Ohio to invest in your hedge funds. They already did this with coins and a bunch of other stuff and from what I have seen in the news I think it worked out really well for them.

Rhys

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- if I had to guess, based on the extremely high cost of PSA-8 cards, I would say perhaps 1% to 2% of the hobby can afford to buy them on a regular basis. How do you consider that the backbone of the hobby? That's like saying the average art collector collects Picassos and DeKoonigs.

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Posted By: Bob

Rhys- Thanks for giving me the smile of the day
tbob