Beware Carterscards2006

[vintagetoppsguy]

Well??? I'm still waiting. You said you could prove it was trimmed, so do so.

Post #56 you said, "And vintagetoppsguy, your comment that I cannot "prove" that it was trimmed because two TPGs have differing opinions is simply incorrect."

So prove it big mouth. We're waiting.

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What's your basis for saying that he is not shilling, in light of the statistics posted regarding another ID with well over 100 bids 97 percent of which were with the seller?

I don't have any basis for saying that he's not shilling, but there isn't really a valid basis for saying that his either.

That buyer is still relatively new, let's give him a little more time before jumping to that conclusion. And aside from an SGC graded Cobb, the buyer seems to be targeting high grade PSA stuff. There was clearly ZERO shilling on Todd's auction. Also, if I remember correctly, Todd had a 81% bid history with this seller. Is he also helping this guy shill?

Anyways, I'm getting out of this thread for now, before I piss too many more people off.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yeah it could be a coincidence that out of 132 bids 97 percent are with the same seller. Or loyalty, a fine quality. EDIT TO ADD I see he also bought a shiny Joe Jackson bat card from the seller. Clearly a buyer of diverse tastes. Bought some midgrade stuff too. In my opinion, it's beyond even a reasonable doubt, but whatever, I've been wrong before.

[chaddurbin]

peter you can't prove to us he shill bids unless you have photo proof of the seller sitting at his laptop with the shill bidder's account on his desktop...just like todd can't prove the card is trimmed unless he was there to witness it. we will take nothing less

Originally Posted by BBSD

VB you a class act, go pick a fight with somebody who cares.

I wont speak for Jim in this case as he has made a valid point about your dyslexia.



Seems that most of the people that are negative towards todd about this thing are "newbies" here. Why?? He bought a card and submitted it for re-slabbing only to find out the card may/is altered. Card is still in the GAI slab and a full refund is warranted. I would do the same. I don't have anything good to say about Carters due to some past issues also but who cares about that really. Sounds like they are to busy STEALING from you idiots that support this type of destructive behavior that destroy this great hobby.


Todd I wish you the best and hope all this works out for you.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

peter you can't prove to us he shill bids unless you have photo proof of the seller sitting at his laptop with the shill bidder's account on his desktop...just like todd can't prove the card is trimmed unless he was there to witness it. we will take nothing less

No circumstantial evidence in your court, eh?

Just something to chew on here gentlemen that are siding with a.........whats the word I am looking for...........

Feel free to help me with the word I am looking for guys


http://www.recordpub.com/news/article/4067361

[bobbyw8469]

Noone said anything about this, so I will post it AGAIN. Please read article #17. Robert Edwards Auctions, one of the best in the business!! I am sorry, but someone has to draw the line somewhere.....

[chaddurbin]

i am surprised todd was still engaging and it took him this long blow up. with all the inane chatter, lol arguments and focus on the stupidest detail i would've flipped out a long time ago. someone trying to compare the situation to a $120 topps banks card that went from a psa 7 to an sgc80. i'm sure if sgc said it was recolored you would've been totally fine like "psa...lol, seller still a good dude i'll rack it up as a learning experience"....now multiply that 10x.

todd knew what he was getting with gai, he was willing to go from a gai 7.5 to a sgc80, that didn't happen. you expect a "professional" TPG with mike baker to at least know a clean card from altered, that's not asking too much. todd knows his M, if i have a question about this issue todd would be one of 2-3 i would come to (rhett is another). he suspected card was trimmed when he got it. instead of confronting the seller right away (like i would) he did the fair thing and sent it off to sgc on his own dime to confirm his suspicion. it's so lol how people are nitpicking at the shipping method he used etc...like really? you can't be serious right????

then to gang up and attack his character, from a bunch of names i've never heard of with less than 100 posts and no history on the board at all...like WOW~! the seller is the one not answering emails, the seller is probably shill-bidding, the seller is not standing behind product, and todd's character is being questioned? Quoting a great American..."YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS!"

not breaking paragraph to show how tilting reading this thread is (edit: eh broke up into paragraphs as there's enough people who can't read properly as is...). in the end it won't matter as todd will get his money back and seller can send card to psa and it'll come back an 8 and everyone will be happy.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

peter you can't prove to us he shill bids unless you have photo proof of the seller sitting at his laptop with the shill bidder's account on his desktop...just like todd can't prove the card is trimmed unless he was there to witness it. we will take nothing less

I don't think anybody asked to prove shilling (unless I missed that part). It looks suspicious, but people can draw their own conclusions. The OP stated that he can prove the card is trimmed. I've simply asked him to do so. He can either prove it and shut up all of us "turds" or he popped off his big mouth. Which is it? Either way, I am done with this thread. He either proves it and I make one final post (my apology to him) or he doesn't prove it and shows himself a liar - for the second time.

[BBSD]

Kevin get's my point, hey pup mind your own business. Get a life loser.

[bcornell]

Originally Posted by novakjr

Carters shills up his bidders.. Carters doesn't communicate at all.. None of which seems to be the case

David N. -

A user with 6 feedback bids 127 times on this seller's cards and 4 times with other sellers in a 30-day period.

The only one who should apologize is the seller.


Bill

Edited to add: vintagetoppsguy is also David

[leaflover]

What if Ebay/Paypal changed their policy to allow buyers, of TPG cards, only 3 returns/refunds in a 12 month period. Just as a football coach needs to save
time-outs and referee play call challenges. A buyer then would have to ask himself should I really return this item? Or for that matter should I even buy it.

I also think bid retractions could be limited.

Just my 2 cents.

Originally Posted by BBSD

Kevin get's my point, hey pup mind your own business. Get a life loser.

It is my business when you come on here and start messing with people that have been here probably longer than your IQ is high. Bet you had to look up what dyslexia meant didn't you

[Fred]

WOW!

This thread has really moved along... for those that don't want to read the whole thing this is a very general summary:

Higher grade GAI Card that is mislabeled is purchased by someone that is not happy that SGC has deemed the card is trimmed. Buyer would like a refund (over $1K) for the ebay purchase. The seller clearly indicated NO RETURNS ACCEPTED in the ebay item description. Buyer also indicated the following:

"not really looking for sympathy here and may not get any--just wanted to vent. Also thought you'd like to know a little about this seller if you were thinking of bidding on his auctions."

Opinions/observations that have been made:

- Some people say that the seller should refund the $$$.

- Others say the item description was clear and it was a TPG card that is encapsulated.

- Some posters have made claims that the seller shill bids and to a degree have substantiated the claim. I don't know what that has to do with the topic of a return but this was an evolutionary part of this topic.

- People have indicated that if the card would have crossed over to SGC at a higher grade the buyer would have been estatic and probably not have thought to send the seller more money because the card was valued more than the actual purchase price because of a higher grade.

- Some have said since the buyer was told the card is trimmed by a different TPG the seller wants out of the deal absed on a different opinion from another TPG. In this case some people believe that you just roll the dice when you buy a card encapsulated by a TPG. TPGs provide "their" subjective opinion about a card and if 4 different TPGs look at the card you could get 4 completely different opinions.

- People obviously have their opinions and there are many differing views on the topic. The discussion is getting a little heated - If it continues this thread is on its way to becoming ' "a train wreck of a thread". Something we haven't had to deal with for a while...

At least it hasn't turned into a total battle royale...

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

I think you Newbies that chime in on this stuff and seem to be so righteous need to realize that there are well respected members of this community that you attack and tell to shut up. The respect we have is all well earned over timed. You can continue to attack us but the people that have have been around this hobby long know our reputation and you need to start earning yours.

I know all the Newbies are not this way but there seems to be way too many in the last few years. And you wonder why people wonder and specular where all the old posters have went.

There is a great group of people in this collecting committee that I call friends and many of us are just amazed by the arrogance of some of the Newbies.

This a great hobby and proud to call many of it's participants friends.

Lee

Originally Posted by Pup6913

Just something to chew on here gentlemen that are siding with a.........whats the word I am looking for...........

Feel free to help me with the word I am looking for guys


http://www.recordpub.com/news/article/4067361

please read link as it seems to have some interesting info in it. BBSD, just incase, I want to extend you the offer so you don's feel left out here. PM me your # and I will have my 5 yr old call you and read you the article. BTW what does the "SD' stand for? Since we know your initials are BB whats the SD? I have a BIG guess but it would be way to funny to post and I might get reprimanded for it.

[Jacklitsch]

"Anyways, I'm getting out of this thread for now, before I piss too many more people off."

Too late.

[quinnsryche]

Can someone correct me if I'm wrong, but, shouldn't GAI be the one who pays for the card (if it's trimmed) and not the seller? I thought that's how it works.

Originally Posted by quinnsryche

Can someone correct me if I'm wrong, but, shouldn't GAI be the one who pays for the card (if it's trimmed) and not the seller? I thought that's how it works.

Since the GAI in question has been disolved they no longer have the responsibility.

[quinnsryche]

Do they no longer exist?

Originally Posted by quinnsryche

Do they no longer exist?

Not as GAI. They have changed a few times but if I am not mistaken about now Mike Baker is "Global authority" Might want to do a quick google search. Lots of controversy on that one. Not to say all his stuff is bad. Just some

[dstudeba]

Good post Lee.

[DICKTOWLE]

Trying to understand, the seller bought a collection of cards, this one was a GAI holder and you broke it out and sent to SGC, and it came back trimmed. If this was the case, how can you fault the seller of the card- afterall he bought this card as a 7.5 correct in good faith, then sold it in good faith. I believe there is no case ?,.

[ctownboy]

Honestly, what does B & L, REA, Legendary, Heritage or ANY other auction company have to do with THIS discussion? Those are privately owned companies that put together their OWN auction. They accept or reject items for THEIR OWN AUCTION and they also put forth a set of rules that BOTH buyers AND sellers have to abide by.

Plain and simple, if any of those companies DO NOT LIKE an item, they DO NOT HAVE TO accept it for THEIR auction. The SAME goes for a buyer OR a seller that doesn't like the rules those companies have in place. If they don't like the rules, they don't have to submit items for acceptance or they don't have to bid in the auction.

On the other hand, eBay (including PayPal) is a large, publicly owned company that only HOSTS auctions. For the most part, they do not have a say in WHAT is put up for auction by individual sellers. Also, since they are only the host and say they keep out of the actual selling of items, they have rules for how they will handle disagreements between buyers and sellers.

One of those RULES is that if a buyer has a problem with an item they bought or a seller, they can bring that problem to eBay's (or PayPal's) attention and eBay (PayPal) will make a judgement on THAT particular problem.

What this all means is that it doesn't make a difference if a seller states one time, ten times or a thousand times that there wil be NO REFUNDS. If eBay (PayPal) decides there WILL be a refund given, then there WILL be a refund given (if the buyer follows the rules eBay/PayPal say they have to follow).

As a seller on eBay, I don't like a lot of things they do, however one thing I have to remember is what eBay says, goes. If I don't like it, tough cookies.

A few years ago, I listed a vintage watch for auction and used a certain term, "tank" to describe it. Two days later, eBay removed my listing. The reason? The term I used to describe the watch (tank) was copyrighted by another watch company and only watches made by THAT company could be described with that term.

Once I found out what the problem was, I relisted the watch WITHOUT that term and eBay let my auction go through to completion.

In the last month, I have sold four dinner plates and a piece of pottery (in two seperate auctions and amongst numerous auctions). When the buyer received the dinner plates she said one of them was broken in transit. What did I do? I apologized for the problem (even though I had doubts it was true because I wrapped each plate in bubble wrap, put plenty of newspaper around all of the plates and then put them in an oversized box) and then divided the final selling price by four and refunded her that 1/4th. The result? No further complaints and NO negative Feed back.

As for the piece of pottery, it sold for 20 times more than I paid for it. I was thrilled and was already thinking how that would cover a month and half of my minimum credit card payment. Then, after the buyer received the piece of pottery, they E mailed me and told me there was a hairline crack in the piece that I didn't describe and they wanted to send it back for a refund.

They said they understood why I hadn't listed the crack as a defect in my auction (the crack was visable from inside the piece of pottery and could not be felt on the outside. They also said they could tell the crack was old because of the browning of the area where it was located). But that didn't matter because they didn't want a damaged piece of pottery in their collection.

What did I do? I had them send the piece back to me and once I had it in hand, I refunded ALL of their money. I did NOT like doing that BUT they have not complained and they have NOT left me negative Feed Back.

Moral of the story? The seller of THIS card might not like the fact they are going to have to refund the money to the buyer (especially if they ARE shilling their other auctions and actually sold this card to a person other than theirselves). They might not like the fact that the buyer sent the card to another grading company for evaluation BUT refunding the money is the right thing to do AND if they had done this in the beginning, they wouldn't be getting all of this bad press now.

David

[jb217676]

My only beef with Carterscards2006 is they block Canadian bidders. I hate sellers that do that!

[ctownboy]

Mr. Towle,

I disagree.

If the buyer bought the card as a GAI 7.5, sent it off and it came back an SGC 60 (or PSA 6 or whatever) then I would say tough nookums (as I do about the Banks card above).

However, if the card went out as a GAI 7.5 and came back as an SGC "A" because of trimming then I think there is a huge problem.

To me, there shouldn't be much difference between one grade (a 6 to a 7 or a 7 to a 6). Differences like that can be chalked up to experience and expertise of the grader, how many cards they have graded that day, etc, etc, etc. However, the difference between a card being graded a 7.5 (based on it being a complete card) and it being graded an "A" (because it has been trimmed) is two entirely different things.

If you bought a slightly used, late model Ferrari for $200,000 dollars (totally expecting it to have a 500 horsepower Ferrari engine in it for that price) and after receiving the car find it has a 300 horsepower Mustang engine under the hood, would YOU be happy? I wouldn't be and that is because the item I received was materially different then what I paid my money for and what I had expected to receive.

Doesn't matter if I am a Ferrari expert or not in this case.

Now, in my hypothetical situation, if my Ferrari mechanic says the car has the proper Ferrari engine but should have red valve covers instead of the blue ones currently on it, then I don't really have a basis for complaing too much.

In this case, the seller is putting their faith in GAI (from what I have read so far, not really a good idea). The faith that GAI could tell the difference between a complete, intact card and a trimmed card. When the buyer sent it off to SGC and they said the card was trimmed, then the buyer wants his money back based on what he received was not what he paid for. Should the buyer have been leery of a GAI card? Yes and that is why he sent it off for a second opinion (from a company he trusts more than GAI.

For those who don't like this then I will ask you a question. How many of you have bought cards graded by GAI or PRO (for far less than what they would have sold for if they were in an SGC or PSA slab and had the same grade) because you thought they were OK? How many of you then sent the cards to SGC or PSA and had them come back slabbed with a similiar grade (as to what GAI or PRO had graded them)?

If any of you have done this, have YOU refunded the profit you made from selling those cards (if you have sold them) to the seller you bought them from? I mean, THEY put their faith in GAI or PRO (by keeping them in their slabs instead of trying to cross them over) and were hurt because of those companies reputations. So, if you took advantage of this then shouldn't you refund some or all of the profit you made?

David

[pgellis]

I have to disagree with the above "Ferrari Analogy".

If you want to use your Ferrari analogy, it would be analogous to say that the seller of the Ferrari's mechanic says that it has a 500 horsepower engine and when you, the buyer, take it to your mechanic, your mechanic says it has a 300 horsepower engine. It comes down to which mechanic is right? Just like is it GAI or SGC?

Also, to go a little further you would have to prove that the seller knew it only had a 300 horsepower engine (if that is what is concluded) in the first place.

[bobbyw8469]

Ctownboy - I understand your side of the argument. I really do. The problem lies now in that (as some other poster before me stated beautifully), all sellers of GAI graded cards will be in a NO WIN situation. GAI cards sell for a tiny fraction of their SGC/PSA counterparts. If the cards cross, the buyer makes out like a bandit. He gets a card in a "supposedly" superior grading service case for a small fraction of the true amount. That amount could total thousands of dollars (like the OP's card in question). If the cards don't cross, then all they have to do is return it for a full refund (even though technically GAI is on the "approved 3rd part grader" list that Ebay has on file. It is a 100% reward situation with 0% risk for the buyer. That being said, why on god's green earth would ANY seller ever sell a GAI graded card ever again!?!?!?!?!?!?!

[carrigansghost]

ctownboy is totally off base. If I cannot tell a certain motor from another and I am a Mopar expert, I find it intersting that this would come up. Buy what you know or take your chances. Learn a lesson and move on.

Rawn

[mdschulze]

This thread has become more about the card, who graded it, what grade it received, blah, blah, blah... Let's forget the card for a minute and look at the basics: Buyer purchases an item and is unhappy, he then contacts the seller for a refund (which seems to be within a reasonable timeframe), thus far the seller hasn't issued a refund and now the buyer is upset.

I've bought and sold items on Ebay and I'll offer a refund to an unhappy buyer just out of moral obligation (both refunds I offered were damage to the items during shipping... once they sent me a photo of the damage, instant refund!). The question is how long can a buyer hold onto an item before they request a refund? If it's a product that can be used and damaged by neglect such as electronics, then the timeframe is shortened. In this case, it's a card in a plastic holder. I don't see any reason for the seller not to issue a refund, say within 45 days. I know the refund timeframe will differ from person to person but in this case it boils down to good business ethics and if nothing else... common courtesy. The seller will get the card back in the same condition he sold it in.... offer a second chance purchase to the next high bidder or relist! He'll still get around $1k for the card whether it's from Todd or from the next guy who wins it.

[bobbyw8469]

In this case, it's a card in a plastic holder. I don't see any reason for the seller not to issue a refund, say within 45 days

The problem with that, is that this WAS NOT a BIN, but rather an auction. What if the under bidder wanted a GAI card, and didn't win because the winning bidder wanted to play the "crackout game - let's get this into SGC holder and triple our money!". That is why most auction houses state NO RETURNS on graded cards, and I am in that camp as well. If I was the seller, I would not want to accept a return either.
Seller relists the card again, but because of so much negative publicity surrounding this card, this time it only sells for $500. Winning bidder pays, sends it to SGC for the upgrade, except this time SGC gives it an "88/7.5" same grade crossover. Now the card is worth the $3,000 and the seller only received $500. This card is going to be forever tainted as a 0% risk card for the buyer and a 100% liability for the seller. As long as the winning bidder submits it and it doesn't cross, he returns it for 100% refund. I am still not convinced the card is trimmed, as it was graded under the old GAI label when Mike Baker was looking at the cards....

[CMIZ5290]

45 days??? What the hell???

[CMIZ5290]

Mike- first of all, he will have no chance probably of getting that price because the card is tainted. Just look at this thread. Secondly, todd knew what the card was and the seller's no refund listing on the auction. If the card did cross to an sgc 88, i wonder if todd would send paul $2k for the difference in the value? I don't think so.

[ChiefBenderForever]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

The problem with that, is that this WAS NOT a BIN, but rather an auction. What if the under bidder wanted a GAI card, and didn't win because the winning bidder wanted to play the "crackout game - let's get this into SGC holder and triple our money!". That is why most auction houses state NO RETURNS on graded cards, and I am in that camp as well. If I was the seller, I would not want to accept a return either.

I hear what you are saying but the seller does not own ebay or paypal. If a buyer can return anything they wan't regardless if auction or BIN then sellers need to be prepared to deal with these situations. If not they might want to consider making their own website and not deal with Ebay, or buy a table at show and get cash in hand. Anything can be returned for any reason as long as it is the same as when bought, GAI, PRO, SGC, PSA, RAW. I'm sure there are many out there who play the bump game and if doesn't work return the card, but they will get blocked by seller after seller. The seller is using Ebay to make money, he has to deal with the issues that come with it along with their rules, and by not communicating got blasted. If he had just responded to Todd explaining he was sorry this happened but he does not except returns and feels bad none of this might have happened but he didn't so we will never know. You might not want to accept a return, but with Ebay/Paypal don't really have a choice. Refund and relist, happens all the time.

[ctownboy]

To all,

I am not rich and am not an expert in engines but, for arguments sake, let's say that I win the Powerball lottery Wednesday night and then have the money to spluge on a Ferrari (or, for Carrigansghost, a Hemi Cuda).

So, let's say that instead of going to Chicago (I live in Indianapolis and we don't have an authorized Ferrari dealership) to buy a Ferrari (or for Carrigan, I don't go to a Barrett Jackson auction). But, instead, I buy a car on line (the eBay listing states the year, model, mileage and any damage but leaves out the Ferrari has a Mustang engine or the listing says the Cuda has a certain VIN number which would indicate a Hemi engine but the car has had that engine switched out at some earlier time).

Now, let's say that I pay the price, receive the car and want to get it checked out just to make sure everything is humky dorry. What happens if at that time the mechanic informs me the car doesn't have the engine it should have and the one that I paid for? DO I just sit and take it or do I complain to the seller? What if the seller doesn't respond? DO I then NOT complain to eBay and try and get a refund?

Again, as a seller on eBay, I take pains to try and list everything I know about an item I am selling and try to put a clear picture in my listing. However, even then, sometimes things happen that I either miss some damage or don't describe something properly or something happens in transit. Either way, as the seller, I feel obligated to make things right with the buyer. Because if I don't, I know a mess like this might occur (which damages my business and reputation) AND there is the chance that eBay will step in and rule against me no matter what.

In this instance, Todd bought a card he wasn't quite sure about (the GAI 7.5 grade giving the implication that the card was a full card but the GAI history giving him some concerns). When said card came back from SGC as trimmed, thus confirming Todd's questions about the card, Todd wanted a refund. When seller doesn't offer a refund (or even respond) Todd comes on here to warn others.

Again, if the seller had only refunded Todd's money and gone on, NONE of this would have happened. Todd would have his money back, the seller would have his card back (to sell again OR go after GAI with) and they wouldn't have a negative Feed Back.

Now, it looks like, if Todd is correct, eBay is going to rule against Carterscards, they are going to have to give the money back, they have received a negative and their name has been dragged through the mud on a public forum. So, even if other people don't read this forum, all someone has to do is Google Carterscards and this thread is going to appear on the search list.

David

[quinnsryche]

I've held out long enough. My opinion (like anyone cares): you buy a graded card, unless it's been tampered with, that's it. If it's trimmed or mis-graded, that's on the grading company, not the seller. How is the seller responsible for what a TPG says? That's stupid. He offers an encapsulated card with a grade and sells it. Once it leaves his hands, he should be done. He doesn't owe the buyer one red cent (again, my opinion) if another grading company has another opinion. After hundreds of responses, I still can't believe people think the seller is responsible. Honestly, if I was the buyer, I never would have even considered returning it to the seller because it didn't cross to my liking. The only out the buyer has if is he thinks the card /holder was tampered with on the sellers end.
Thanks for listening.

[pgellis]

Originally Posted by ctownboy

To all,

I am not rich and am not an expert in engines but, for arguments sake, let's say that I win the Powerball lottery Wednesday night and then have the money to spluge on a Ferrari (or, for Carrigansghost, a Hemi Cuda).

So, let's say that instead of going to Chicago (I live in Indianapolis and we don't have an authorized Ferrari dealership) to buy a Ferrari (or for Carrigan, I don't go to a Barrett Jackson auction). But, instead, I buy a car on line (the eBay listing states the year, model, mileage and any damage but leaves out the Ferrari has a Mustang engine or the listing says the Cuda has a certain VIN number which would indicate a Hemi engine but the car has had that engine switched out at some earlier time).

Now, let's say that I pay the price, receive the car and want to get it checked out just to make sure everything is humky dorry. What happens if at that time the mechanic informs me the car doesn't have the engine it should have and the one that I paid for? DO I just sit and take it or do I complain to the seller? What if the seller doesn't respond? DO I then NOT complain to eBay and try and get a refund?

Again, as a seller on eBay, I take pains to try and list everything I know about an item I am selling and try to put a clear picture in my listing. However, even then, sometimes things happen that I either miss some damage or don't describe something properly or something happens in transit. Either way, as the seller, I feel obligated to make things right with the buyer. Because if I don't, I know a mess like this might occur (which damages my business and reputation) AND there is the chance that eBay will step in and rule against me no matter what.

In this instance, Todd bought a card he wasn't quite sure about (the GAI 7.5 grade giving the implication that the card was a full card but the GAI history giving him some concerns). When said card came back from SGC as trimmed, thus confirming Todd's questions about the card, Todd wanted a refund. When seller doesn't offer a refund (or even respond) Todd comes on here to warn others.

Again, if the seller had only refunded Todd's money and gone on, NONE of this would have happened. Todd would have his money back, the seller would have his card back (to sell again OR go after GAI with) and they wouldn't have a negative Feed Back.

Now, it looks like, if Todd is correct, eBay is going to rule against Carterscards, they are going to have to give the money back, they have received a negative and their name has been dragged through the mud on a public forum. So, even if other people don't read this forum, all someone has to do is Google Carterscards and this thread is going to appear on the search list.

David

Again, analogy is wrong.

You are now claiming, by your analogy, that the seller left out information that the card was trimmed (see bold above).

According to GAI, which is all that the seller could go on, the card was not trimmed. He didn't leave out the fact that the card was trimmed because he and GAI did not believe it was trimmed.

Incorrect analogy again.

[CMIZ5290]

David- good story, but i don't think you are comparing apples to apples.

[CMIZ5290]

Well said tony!

[ctownboy]

Bobby,

If sellers are concerned that their GAI cards are being purchased by people who are just going to send them in to SGC or PSA and try and have them cross over (and then sell them for a higher price) then why don't those sellers just send the card/s in to SGC or PSA themsleves?

Now, I can understand if somebody new to the hobby or who doesn't have a clue about grading companies is selling this card on eBay. I can see where they might not be aware that an SGC card will probably be worth more in this grade than a card in a GAI slab. I will cut those sellers some slack.

Howver, in this case, it seems that Carterscards is NOT a newby seller and that they KNEW that GAI cards graded early in the company's history have a better reputation than those graded at a later date. Thus, they played up that fact to try and get a higher selling price.

As I see it, Carterscards was HOPING whoever won their auction was "buying the slab and not the card" while also HOPING that the buyer didn't know about GIA's reputation.

In this case, they were wrong and have been called out on it.

David

[Tsaiko]

.....and by not communicating got blasted. If he had just responded to Todd explaining he was sorry this happened ....

Yes.
I just hate to see these unsettled transactions when I know that most of the people who participate in the hobby are well intentioned and honest, including the buyer and the seller in this matter, most likely.

Hopefully the seller wasn't in a coma or some other unavoidable detainment and suddenly wakes up to this thread

[jezzeaepi]

People can have opinions all they want, but I think the ebay buyer protection terms and conditions are pretty clear. It doesnt really matter what you would do, or what a different auction house would do. Ebay has its own rules and you have follow those on ebay.

"What happens if a buyer believes an item is not authentic?

Items that are suspected of being counterfeit are covered by the eBay Buyer Protection Policy, subject to the above and these additional terms:

*

Sellers and buyers must work together in good faith during the resolution process to satisfy buyer concerns that an item may not be authentic. For example, sellers should provide the buyer with appropriate documentation or other assurances that the item is authentic, if such information is available.
*

Where the seller is not able to satisfy the buyer's concerns about the authenticity of an item, sellers agree that the buyer will typically have to return the item to the seller before getting a refund. Buyers agree that they will typically be required to return the item to the seller before getting a refund. Costs of return shipping will be paid by the buyer unless the buyer and seller agree otherwise. Where buyers are not required to return the item, buyers agree to cooperate with us to ensure the proper disposal of the item as described below. Due to the unresolved dispute regarding the authenticity of the item, sellers must not later list, advertise or offer for sale the item on any eBay site or service around the world (including our subsidiaries, joint ventures and other members of the eBay corporate family).
*

Generally, buyers will not be obligated to provide third-party confirmation that an item is counterfeit to open a case. Buyers should feel free, however, to seek such written confirmation from the manufacturer whenever they suspect that an item may be counterfeit. In cases where a buyer has written confirmation from the manufacturer that the item is counterfeit, or in any cases where eBay requests this confirmation, the buyer must send this information directly to us. We reserve the right to accept this written confirmation directly from other reliable third parties. Buyers agree to cooperate with us to ensure the proper disposal of counterfeit items. For example, buyers may be asked to destroy (and certify that the item has been destroyed), or send the item to the manufacturer or other appropriate third party for disposal. Any costs associated with this destruction or disposal may be paid by eBay, in our sole discretion.
*

Covered cases that meet the above conditions and are not excluded under this Policy may be considered as criteria, infringement or a violation by the seller of our prohibited and infringing items policy. As a result, we may impose sanctions on the seller, up to and including suspension of the seller's account."

If a card is counterfiet, then the buyer can return it. Simple. This card has been altered, or atleast in the opinion of the buyer(and a third party). Therefore they have grounds for returning said item within 45 days. Those are the rules. If you don't like them, don't sell on ebay.

[botn]

Originally Posted by Pup6913

Just something to chew on here gentlemen that are siding with a.........whats the word I am looking for...........

Feel free to help me with the word I am looking for guys


http://www.recordpub.com/news/article/4067361

Terrific!!! Just what the hobby needs--another felon. Move over JP Cohen of Memory Lane you have company. Wonder if Paul told everyone he was in the mortgage business when he was in the slammer?

[ctownboy]

pgellis,

No, if the seller is making a concerted effort in the auction listing to state the card was graded early in GAI history (as the buyer says he was) then the implication is that the card has a much better chance of crossing over at or near that grade when sent in to SGC or PSA.

For the uninitiated or uninformed, just having the card graded by GAI might be good enough for them. Now, for someone more knowledgable about cards and grading companies, having the seller put in that the card was (supposedly) graded early in GAI history seems like a ploy to give increased confidence about the card.

In short, seller is hoping dumb person will spend big money just because the card is graded, no matter what company graded it. But, to help their cause, seller supplies more info so that smart buyer feels more comfortable bidding.

A multi-layered approach which lends credence to the theory that Carterscards knew what they were doing when listing and describing the card.

David

[mdschulze]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Mike- first of all, he will have no chance probably of getting that price because the card is tainted. Just look at this thread. Secondly, todd knew what the card was and the seller's no refund listing on the auction. If the card did cross to an sgc 88, i wonder if todd would send paul $2k for the difference in the value? I don't think so.

The seller listed no returns, so do I on all my listings. This doesn't mean if the buyer is unhappy with the item, for whatever reason (even if he needs the money back to pay a bill), that I won't disregard and say "never mind, buyer beware".... that's crap and in my opinion unethical. I will get my item back (unless it's busted due to shipping) and relist... no problem.

Net54 has a big following but I doubt every vintage card collector out there reads this forum. Is the card now tainted? Yes, to some degree, but only to those who read this thread.

I, as a seller on ebay, would not have a problem issuing a 45 day refund on a card that's in a sealed, plastic slab. A few people may disagree and say it's too lenient, some may disagree and say it should be longer, but I would like to think most would see me as being an honest seller. If I listed "No Returns" on an auction, then by law I shouldn't be obligated to accept a return (I understand that's not the case). Morally, I would say I'm on the hook. I would rather issue a refund and sleep well at night than to have to deal with my conscience down the road.... JMO

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by DICKTOWLE

Trying to understand, the seller bought a collection of cards, this one was a GAI holder and you broke it out and sent to SGC, and it came back trimmed. If this was the case, how can you fault the seller of the card- afterall he bought this card as a 7.5 correct in good faith, then sold it in good faith. I believe there is no case ?,.

No, Dick. That's NOT correct. No one broke tha GAI card out of the holder. It went to SGC in the GAI holder. They looked at it, thought it may show evidence of trim, and returned it without busting it out.

Why is this fact so hard for anyone to understand?

[jp1216]

My turn -

I say that no TPGC is 100% legit. When you buy a card over the internet - you take a chance. For me, 4 grading companies are recognized by eBay. GAI is/was one of them. If you buy a GAI/PSA/SGC/BVG card on eBay you are accepting the condition based on the TPGC. The seller is too. What if it was a PSA 7.5 that was rejected by SGC? Or a SGC 7.5 rejected by BVG?

Based on that, I'd say the buyer is liable. But the facts that the seller doesn't respond to emails and (apparently bids on his own auctions) - evens the playing field. A good seller would refund and move one. Use the TPGC as a defense, but respect the buyer and other TPGC determination.

So - IF the card is still in the GAI 7.5 slab - I say the seller should REFUND. If it isn't, I say - buyer owns the card. Good business. But not 100% necessary.

Good Thread - just keep it civil. The language and attacks are getting too much.

[CMIZ5290]

Maybe todd should send it in to pro graders, he might get back a gem mint 10

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by Jim VB

No, Dick. That's NOT correct. No one broke tha GAI card out of the holder. It went to SGC in the GAI holder. They looked at it, thought it may show evidence of trim, and returned it without busting it out.

Why is this fact so hard for anyone to understand?

Our country's failing public-education system? Not enough emphasis placed on reading comprehension? Too many big words?