Size Variance?

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Posted By: Mark

What is the definitive take on size variance for T, E & D cards?
I was reading an article in VCBC on D311's where Macrae indicates that there was a variance on how the cards were cut.

I have encountered this relative to E cards as well, but what is the "last" word; so to speak, on this issue?

If a card looks to good to a hobby veteran; such as Macrae, but SGC or PSA locks it up it as "Auth" or trimmed - what happens then?

Opinions......please.

Thanks,

Mark
mrios@hotmail.com

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Posted By: T206Collector

...answer to this question.

While measuring the sides on a 1997 Topps card will prove definitive, the best way to tell if a pre-war card is trimmed is by looking at the edges -- perpendicularly to yourself -- and seeing how they were cut. If the edge, again, looking from front to back, is squared off, it may be trimmed. An SGC grader once explained that clean edges are actually slightly rounded. You can also notice color variations from one edge to the other. I stopped relying just on a ruler a long time ago when it came to judging whether a T206 card had been trimmed. I believe it to be common knowledge in the hobby that dealers in the mid-1980's purchased over-sized T cards with rounded corners that they could shave into appropriately sized T cards with sharp corners, for purposes of getting higher grades from PSA. (This is one of the reasons I look suspiciously at high grade/sharp cornered T206 cards.)

Having said that, SGC has rejected T206 cards that I have submitted as being "too small" for the issue. That is, they didn't want to go on record as saying they saw evidence of trimming. They just felt that the card was too small to have been issued by the factory that way.

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Posted By: JimB

"I believe it to be common knowledge in the hobby that dealers in the mid-1980's purchased over-sized T cards with rounded corners that they could shave into appropriately sized T cards with sharp corners, for purposes of getting higher grades from PSA."

For the record, PSA started in 1991 so whatever happened in the '80's was not done with the hopes of getting a card in a PSA holder. For all of its faults, PSA started in response and to help put an end to doctoring of various sorts including trimming. So I think it is misleading to suggest that this sort of thing started as a response to PSA in any sense. Quite the opposite is true.
JimB

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Posted By: T206Collector

...I am retelling a late told by more than one respected Board member when I began contributing 5 or so years ago -- I may have the dates wrong, but the suggestion then (as in my post) was that dealers believed that they could shave their cards down and get them into PSA holders. Whether it happened in 1986 or 1991 was not the purpose of my post.

Call it conjecture or rumor, but at the time the story was being circulated -- and it was in response to my questions about PSA's value at the time, again circa 2002 -- there were few responses in defense of PSA.

But I will concede that it was not my story to begin with, but rather a story apparently endorsed by more than one respected Board member, that gave me (and continues to give me) pause. I will also concede that PSA does a service by attempting not to grade trimmed T206 cards.

[Archive]

Posted By: robert a

Hey Mark,

I've also seen different examples from several issues that are shorter than standard, but were cut that way at the factory.

D304 is one that comes to mind.

Personally don't really care much what grading employees say. They simply refer to a reference book and then deem a card too small for the plastic holder. They're just covering their butts and don't have a feel for the many tendencies of several issues except maybe t206 which they see quite frequently.

They're also not consistent. I've had examples rejected for being too small and then holdered by the same company with a number grade later down the line.

Rob

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Posted By: JimB

My point was not so much about the dates as much as the insinuation that trimming became more pervasive as a result of PSA or grading. In fact, it was indemic before and has become much more difficult to pass off trimmed cards a high-grade and unaltered since. I think it has largely declined since grading has become more pervasive. Sure, some trimmed cards get through all of the services, but for the most part I think they all do a good job of identifying and rejecting trimmed cars. So my point is that PSA should get some credit for the decline in trimming these days rather than the opposite. THey made it a lot harder to sell trimmed cards. Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of problems with the way PSA runs their business these days. But I feel compelled to respond when I think they are accused of things for which they are not responsible.

By the way, I would argue that PSA was actually better at catching trimmed cards back in the old days when Baker was the head grader than they are now. I had a lot of cards rejected for evidence of trimming back in the mid-90's, much to my surprise. It was a real eye-opener for me. I have learned a lot about how to spot trimmed cards since then.
JimB


edited for spelling